3.1 MSQ Reaction [SPOILERS]

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

Isn't the answer to that one rather obvious? Midgarsormr felt that the Garleans were evil and so attacked them. They were enough of a big threat for him to risk everything to defeat them.

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Except that his duty seems to be limited to guarding the lake, and the Garleans didn't (from what I recall) want to do anything to the lake. If Middy hadn't intervened, the lake could quite likely have been safe for years after. Which would have drastically limited how many primals could be summoned, which would have slowed project meteor, which would have delayed the last calamity. >_>

Delayed, but not have prevented the eventual fall of Dalamud. Since the Bozja incident may have occurred anyways, maybe even differently in that Bozja may still exist due to whatever relics the Garleans would have discovered in Mor Dhona.

Also, weren't primals already being summoned prior to the Silver Tear lake battle? Also, could Nael and co already have been (slightly) tempered by Bahamut?

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Come now, Cid…you must know that he did not have the luxury of choice. By the time he realized his error, it was too late. Meteor had him completely in its thrall. Shortly before his…transformation, mayhap sensing that something was amiss, your father confided to me all the regrets of his life.

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Excluding Bahamut's rampage, the world still had echo users and people skilled enough to defeat Primals (Company of Heroes)

On a side note, I can't help but be reminded of "look to those who walked before, to lead those who walk after" in the lyrics of Answers

I wasn't able to find it after a cursory look. Did someone take screenshots of Y'shtola's comments about Thancred regarding his aether?

http://i.imgur.com/1cH2zcH.png
http://i.imgur.com/sPGtHz7.png
The second page got cut off by the kinda lame screenshot limiter, but there's most of what you want.

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

I think the problem with your statement lies in the fact that there is not a single big truth, but rather several small truths. For instance, what is Elidibus' motive in trying to get us to champion his cause? Why doesn't he just focus his efforts on eliminating us instead? Lahabrea on his own and even with a friend may not have been able to stop us, but surely Elidibus rallying all of the Ascians against us would actually be enough to defeat us? Also, instead of reappearing before us himself, why have the Warriors of Darkness step in? Another thing is that we as a Warrior of Light may be getting manipulated by Hydaelyn, but the Scions do not seem to be acting on anything other than facts: Ascians cause deaths, chaos and are directly attacking them, so the Scions defend themselves against them and protect their own in addition to helping the countries they've each become affiliated with. It could be said that the only heroic pretension comes from the Warrior of Light, not from the Scions. Basically, SE is answering the small questions a few at a time, which makes perfect sense if they're going to carry this plot forward for at least 2 more expansions.

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What advantage would eliminating us give to Elidibus? We have the Echo, the Blessing of Light, and have proven that we are a "warrior's warrior". He stands to gain more if he can slowly influence us to join his cause. We might lose the Blessing, but we proved we could manage without it. I think it's safe to say everything he does is towards that goal. Why bring out the WoD? Because they would be more influential to the WoL than an Ascian.

Much appreciated, thank you!

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Originally Posted by myahele

Also, weren't primals already being summoned prior to the Silver Tear lake battle? Also, could Nael and co already have been (slightly) tempered by Bahamut?

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Bahamut was the first primal summoned by the Mercydians. Also, I don't think Nael was tempered. He was pretty fanatical. Up until now, he had success in his campaign. Of the city states of Eorzea, Ala Mihgo was the stongest. During the Autumn War it took the four other city states to prevent Gridania from being conquered. Taking over AM should have set him up for a swift conquest of Eorzea, but he suffered nothing but setbacks.

Let me just clarify a few things:

• It was possible to summon Primals before Midgardsormr's "death" in the Battle of the Silvertear Skies. It was just a lot harder to do so, suggesting whatever ol' Middy was doing was keeping the Primals under lock and key.
  
• van Darnus did not conquer Ala Mhigo. That was van Baelsar's doing, which is why he was Viceroy of the territory either until he went rogue or until he died. It was accomplished through both subterfuge and military action, not just sheer brute force.
  
• van Darnus did end up getting tempered by Bahamut, but exactly when is up for debate. Personally, I think it was after becoming Deus Darnus, but it's kind of iffy since his/her sanity was slipping though most of his/her story arc from what I've read.

Thanks for clearing that up, the 1.0 story is sometimes tricky to keep track of. I'd agree van Darnus was tempered AFTER Dalamud fell, he was pretty crazy at the end of 1.0.

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Originally Posted by Delily

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Gaius was the one to take over Ala Mhigo via inciting civil war and eventually was the one fought Midgardsormr and his hoard in Silver Lakes, once defeated he stayed in Ala Mhigo and lost a lot of respect from the Empire. Nael spear-headed project Meteor and had the permission by the Emperor himself to conquer Eorzea when Gaius failed.

Being a Primal's thrall can manifest itself in different ways and as we saw with Leviathan, they can be be just as "normal" and intelligent as anybody. But yes, it could simply be fanaticism, but the way Gaius describes Midas suggests otherwise.

All I could think of was, "omg derplander is his own separate identity, separate from mine own. I SHALL MAKE HIM BE MY HUSBANDO! THROW HIM IN MY HOUSE!" when I first saw him. I was school-girl crushing over him ever since FFXIV 1.0 opening, and more so FFXIV:ARR 2.0 opening, and even more so that he has a oh so masculine voice hurhur.

Oh, man - busy thread, today. Let's keep clearing things up.

• Primals were summoned in Othard pre-1562, and are even hints that the Garleans faced a primal in Eorzea between 1557 and 1562, but it has been mentioned vaguely and briefly and nobody will talk to me about it. It's been "planned since the beginning" and that's all I know.
• Nael van Darnus was tempered by Bahamut in 1562 via improper use of a lunar transmitter. (Confirmed by Fernehalwes)
• The Garleans attacked Silvertear Lake because they, too, knew of the legends about the place and realized its aetherial importance and knew that it could be tapped for summoning. (Confirmed by Fernehalwes)
• Midgardsormr was guarding a seal on the lake's aether. What exactly that means will be revealed before 4.0 (Confirmed by Oda-san)
• The Battle of Silvertear Skies playing out like it did wasn't unusual, it was downright ironic. The Garleans sought to prevent the summoning of primals and ened up making it easier. Midgardsormr fought to protect the seal and ended up accidentally breaking it. Everyone lost - chaos ensued. Makes you wonder if Ascians moved any pieces on the board.
• Sharlayan ex Machina goes back a lot longer than you think. Even (some of?) the Archons of Old were said to have come from across the Bloodbrine (though who's to say which legends are true, right?)

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The Battle of Silvertear Skies playing out like it did wasn't unusual, it was downright ironic. The Garleans sought to prevent the summoning of primals and ened up making it easier. Midgardsormr fought to protect the seal and ended up accidentally breaking it. Everyone lost - chaos ensued. Makes you wonder if Ascians moved any pieces on the board.

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Do we know exactly when Lahabrea started working with Gaius? He seems the mostly likely to be moving pieces given his plan for Ultima

We do not. Gaius made no indication of knowing Ascians in 1.0. Though it has to be remembered that the existence of the "overlord" Ascians wasn't even known until 2.0.

Just some thoughts here.
Since Alphinaud and Alisaie represent, in a sense, duality, do you guys suppose that Alisaie will be with the WOD as their "alphinaud"?

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Do we know exactly when Lahabrea started working with Gaius?

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I imagine that Gaius would have acted very, very differently if he'd been in contact with Lahabrea much earlier than we saw. Otherwise why sit on Ala Mhigo for ten years feeling that the primals couldn't be dealt with? Why let Nael convince the Emperor that Meteor was the only reasonable option left? Why accept being treated like a failure and assigned as Nael's personal attache?

The earliest I can fathom is when Gaius turned on Nael and shot down his airship. It would imply that Lahabrea came to him shortly after he was torn down by Cid in La Noscea and capitalized on his helplessness and rage at being relegated to Darnus' lapdog. However, I don't think that's the most likely scenario. When Gaius finally decides it's best for the Empire if Darnus does not succeed, thus quietly helping the Alliance undo him and retreating to Ala Mhigo, the only new information he seems to have is that Nael isn't right - that he's been touched by something and deceives the Emperor.

I think Lahabrea came to him right after - when Louisoix cut off the seventh rejoining. The ARR Echo of the Battle of Cartenau suggested that Lahabrea was sure that this is it, baby. Why come to Gaius before that? Once the whole "phoenix" thing happened, I think Lahabrea figured - welp - needs moar chaos - and pulled Ultima out of Gyr Abania's basement knowing that Gaius would be the most likely to embrace gifts of extraordinary power in such a way that he'd immediately use them to wage war.

If Gaius was acting in service to the Empire (as far as he was concerned) when he let us take down Darnus, I assume contact with Lahabrea was what encouraged him to immediately go rogue and invade Eorzea alone, swiftly setting the stage for Ultima's appearance. After all, the Emperor was starting to fall ill and claimants to the throne were getting anxious... if ever there was a time to prove his worth...

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Originally Posted by AutumnHarvestwind

Just some thoughts here.
Since Alphinaud and Alisaie represent, in a sense, duality, do you guys suppose that Alisaie will be with the WOD as their "alphinaud"?

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Part of me wants Nero to join them as their anti-Cid, as well.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

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All this situation with Gaius really made me feel pitty about him.

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Originally Posted by AutumnHarvestwind

Just some thoughts here.
Since Alphinaud and Alisaie represent, in a sense, duality, do you guys suppose that Alisaie will be with the WOD as their "alphinaud"?

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Given her position in the Coil storyline, that would be intensely weird, tbh.

Y'know I think 3.15 will have some MSQ content as well as the relic.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Y'know I think 3.15 will have some MSQ content as well as the relic.

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I hope you right, but sadly there was no confirmation. On 2.5 Se said that MSQ would be splitted on 2

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

All this situation with Gaius really made me feel pity about him.

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Same. If you closely follow his story from beginning to end, he was what I call a true believer. He bought into the notion that the Garleans, the second coming of the great empire of Allag, were all that stood between the planet and its destruction - that might is right and all nations must be brought under the Imperial standard by will or by force in order to save them. And, compared to others in the Empire, Gaius acted (at least as far as his principles were concerned) with honor. The problem lies at the heart of Garlean philosophy. Their brutality and ruthlessness undermine their own cause, especially as they spend far more time treating the symptoms than the cause and even end up spreading the fear, rage, and hopelessness that causes people to welcome primals and Darkness into their hearts. They, like Allag, are yet but pieces on the board.

However ... XIV, as the successor of XI, takes great strides in setting the standard for what it means to be an installment of Final Fantasy Online. As FFO becomes a celebration of past games, invoking previous installments in a way that stand-alone main sequence games cannot, I'm not entirely sure that Yoshida-san and co. are ready to let the mascots of their own game go down so early in its life cycle. Did we see the death of Gaius van Baelsar the man, or only the end of Gaius van Baelsar, Legatus of the XIVth Imperial Legion and loyal servant of Garlemald?

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

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The title "true patriotic" would not be better?

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Originally Posted by Delily

What advantage would eliminating us give to Elidibus? We have the Echo, the Blessing of Light, and have proven that we are a "warrior's warrior". He stands to gain more if he can slowly influence us to join his cause. We might lose the Blessing, but we proved we could manage without it. I think it's safe to say everything he does is towards that goal. Why bring out the WoD? Because they would be more influential to the WoL than an Ascian.

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True, but if we are in his way, the easiest option would rather be to try to eliminate us. He certainly didn't stop Lahabrea from trying, after all, so clearly he was not completely opposed to the idea. On the WoDs though, we are not exactly likely to start trusting people of about equal strength to ours who randomly attack us and our friends, so I don't see how they would influence us in any way other than being one more enemy for us.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I think Lahabrea came to him right after - when Louisoix cut off the seventh rejoining. The ARR Echo of the Battle of Cartenau suggested that Lahabrea was sure that this is it, baby. Why come to Gaius before that? Once the whole "phoenix" thing happened, I think Lahabrea figured - welp - needs moar chaos - and pulled Ultima out of Gyr Abania's basement knowing that Gaius would be the most likely to embrace gifts of extraordinary power in such a way that he'd immediately use them to wage war.

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About that, why didn't Lahabrea go for Omega after Ultima's destruction?

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[*] The Garleans attacked Silvertear Lake because they, too, knew of the legends about the place and realized its aetherial importance and knew that it could be tapped for summoning. (Confirmed by Fernehalwes)

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So what were they aiming to accomplish by attacking it? Were they going to occupy it?

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Same. If you closely follow his story from beginning to end, he was what I call a true believer. He bought into the notion that the Garleans, the second coming of the great empire of Allag, were all that stood between the planet and its destruction - that might is right and all nations must be brought under the Imperial standard by will or by force in order to save them. And, compared to others in the Empire, Gaius acted (at least as far as his principles were concerned) with honor.

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I don't think I can call a man who would sanction the slaughter of several innocents "honorable". Not to mention that he essentially made his move against the Waking Sands when the Warrior of Light was otherwise occupied and then proceeded to capture those he did not kill. To me, Gaius is not so much honorable as, like you said, a true believer. More than that though, I think he was a very practical man who, instead of relying on blind faith in some gods who only respond to crystals, instead relied purely on his own strengths and abilities.

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

About that, why didn't Lahabrea go for Omega after Ultima's destruction?

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He was out of commision due to his injuries from the ass Kicking we gave him in the Ultima incident. By the time he got back into the ring, Various Parties were already trying to uncover Omega. Same with the Crystal Tower. He either already did put them into motion, or he didn't need to.

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So what were they aiming to accomplish by attacking it? Were they going to occupy it?

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Assuming they could capture and control the lake, and they could contrive a way to effectively valve the flow, they'd control the primary flow of Aether entering Eorzea ((All of Hydelen? I'm not actually read up on that.)) I don't know of their motives, but I'm pretty sure that being able to mete out aether at their discression to whomever bows down to them ((and presumably isn't using it to summon Primals)) would put even more pressure on Eorzea and the Alliance than Ultima did. Areas without Aether die, right, I understood that correctly?

Edit: also, no Aether, no Primals. and Primals=bad.

Lahabrea might have been going after Omega. Keep in mind that the Overlords don't do all their own dirty work, Lahabrea and possibly the others at least have servants do a lot for them as well. Even when Lahabrea dies his servants are still working to see his will fulfilled; a little thing like being banished to the void wouldn't stop his plans completely. There was that one line in 2.2 or 2.3 in Ul'Dah that may have implied there was Ascian involvement in the plot. That plot may have been one of Lahabrea's backup plans for Omega. Or it might not have been Lahabrea's at all, but another Ascian's. Honestly, we don't know in this case and I can only make conjectures.

When you can teleport around at will, you can work multiple fields. I wouldn't be surprised if he at least had his hands in other countries events, similar to how it was said that Hydaelyn has multiple people working for her throughout the world.

His little pet project did seem to be the altering of mortals into Primals, but he was arrogant enough to put Nabriales in change of that, to Nabriales' chagrin. So he wasn't overseeing even his favorite projects. Alternatively, I like to think Elidibus was giving Lahabrea a little smack on the hand as he made Lahabrea work with him in 2.X in Ishgard, so he had to put Nabriales in charge because he couldn't personally oversee it.
Belated edit: Point being, Lahabrea was otherwise occupied, but could have very much still have influenced events in some way, like he did with Ysayle.

I must have missed the part with URIANGER , where was this in the main story???

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Did we see the death of Gaius van Baelsar the man, or only the end of Gaius van Baelsar, Legatus of the XIVth Imperial Legion and loyal servant of Garlemald?

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While I would also like Gaius to come back, as he was a good and honorable opponent for the most part who we could have been friends with under better circumstances, he was stuck in the exploding Praetorium we ourselves barely managed to escape. While he can come back, perhaps reformed as Nero seems set to, that would be a bit of a Deus ex Machina in my opinion unless they did it really well.

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

About that, why didn't Lahabrea go for Omega after Ultima's destruction?

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Aside from being out of commission... who knows. It might be an impractical solution, or it could be because Lolorito and Teledji were already going at it. Where they learned about it from, who knows? Maybe it was even... an Ascian! Dun dun dun!

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

So what were they aiming to accomplish by attacking [Silvertear Lake]? Were they going to occupy it?

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Probably. If they controlled Silvertear Lake, not only would they be assured that Primals would still be hard to summon, but it would probably be a great source of aether for their magitek.

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

I don't think I can call a man who would sanction the slaughter of several innocents "honorable". Not to mention that he essentially made his move against the Waking Sands when the Warrior of Light was otherwise occupied and then proceeded to capture those he did not kill. To me, Gaius is not so much honorable as, like you said, a true believer. More than that though, I think he was a very practical man who, instead of relying on blind faith in some gods who only respond to crystals, instead relied purely on his own strengths and abilities.

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If you're referring exclusively to the Waking Sands raid... the casualties were likely a result of Livia's rather loose morality (and sanity). He probably told her to go capture the Archons, and well... she's kind of a psycho bitch, so wouldn't care how many casualties she caused - her orders were to capture the Archons, anything else she could take liberties with.

Gaius was definitely a true believer, but to be fair, he had some valid points even if he was too extreme to really be good. He was also definitely a professional, practical man who relied on his own abilities instead of a deity, which is why I respect him so much.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I must have missed the part with URIANGER , where was this in the main story???

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It's the very last scene. You can rewatch it as the last scene in "As Goes Light, So Goes Darkness" in the Unending Journey.

EDIT
It's actually the next-to-last scene. The last scene is the Yda and Papalymo setup.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

While I would also like Gaius to come back, as he was a good and honorable opponent for the most part who we could have been friends with under better circumstances, he was stuck in the exploding Praetorium we ourselves barely managed to escape. While he can come back, perhaps reformed as Nero seems set to, that would be a bit of a Deus ex Machina in my opinion unless they did it really well.

If you're referring exclusively to the Waking Sands raid... the casualties were likely a result of Livia's rather loose morality (and sanity). He probably told her to go capture the Archons, and well... she's kind of a psycho bitch, so wouldn't care how many casualties she caused - her orders were to capture the Archons, anything else she could take liberties with.

Gaius was definitely a true believer, but to be fair, he had some valid points even if he was too extreme to really be good. He was also definitely a professional, practical man who relied on his own abilities instead of a deity, which is why I respect him so much.

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I completely agree with you and Moose. It is what made fighting him so frustrating for me - I would have loved it if we could have befriend him. I didn't agree with his 'might makes right'-mentality, but that seems to be part of the Garlean mentality in general. And I think given the chance, we might have even been able to talk to him.
About the raid on the Sands... I, too, think it's Livias fault it escalated back then. They where after us (or claimed they where, anyway...) and the Scions. From what we know about Gaius, especially from his conquest of Ala Mhigo, he actually tries to limit casualties, in contrast to most of his countrymen. So, I think had he actually been there, he would have accepted Minfilia's surrender and leave the rest alone. Allas, we got Livia, and everything ended in a huge blood bath. Glad her sister is her complete opposite...

And, yeah, Gaius' definitely had a point... I hate extremism in any shape and form, though, that's why I can't relate to the Garlean Empire at all. Really sad such a great character had to be one their most loyal generals...

I actually talked about this with a friend a while ago and we both agreed that Gaius is what a villain should be - someone with both good and bad sides instead of only bad, who people can somewhat relate to and actually say 'hell, under different circumstances, I could be friends with this guy...'

Thoughtful questions apparently get thorough answers. Apologies for the novella.

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

About that, why didn't Lahabrea go for Omega after Ultima's destruction?

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Based on Elidibus' conversation with Minfilia about how defeat had stuck in his craw, I like to imagine that he was regaining his strength, reformulating his plan, and skulking about Ascian HQ - yelling into the void and kicking things.

In reality, though, I think it was Elidibus' doing. The two worked very closely in later patches, and Elidibus was often seen trying to keep him on-mission. I think he convinced him to think bigger and heed his guidance. Did you notice how every event from 2.2 to 2.55 looked like it was building to the Knights of the Round?

• [2.2] Elidibus grants the Sahagin elder the Echo.
• [2.3] In response to Ramuh's fall, the Ascians resolve to manipulate "the gifted" to give rise to a new primal.
• [2.4] Nabriales helps Lahabrea merge man and deiform, Shiva is summoned.
• [2.5] Unseen, Lahabrea and Elidibus grant Thordan and the Heavens' Ward the power to summon the deiform founder King and his Knights Twelve into themselves (a culmination of past experiments). Nidhogg senses their power and realizes that he might be defeated if he keeps holding back and waging a war only on their spirits. He rallies the whole of the Horde and moves on Ishgard before Thordan can move on him.

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

So what were they aiming to accomplish by attacking it? Were they going to occupy it?

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More or less. Imagine you're Garlean leadership for a moment. You've heard tales of this sacred place and know there are tons of legends about it. You find that it is a conflux for at least the whole realm (if not the whole world)'s aetherial rivers.

If your empire's mission statement is essentially Primals Are Bad, M'kay, you definitely want that place locked down when your armies move in. The last thing you need is the beast tribes tapping into that massive confluence to power the summoning of their gods. No one can be allowed to learn how to harness that power.

That's not to say that the Garleans didn't realize something bigger was up with Silvertear Lake, though... especially while pulling away from the Battle of Silvertear Skies.

Fun Fact: Even after the invasion into the heart of Eorzea failed and the XIVth Legion retreated to Ala Mhigo, Gaius still held Mor Dhona (very loosely). Eorzea secured small camps around the aetherytes, but barely anyone dared venture outside of them because Gaius maintained supply camps and a troop presence. That's how Castrum Novum was raised there so fast with so few noticing.

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

I don't think I can call a man who would sanction the slaughter of several innocents "honorable".

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The whole claim hinges on the parentheses, lol.

From Garlemald's point of view, following their principles, Gaius slew aspirant usurpers of the crown, held stability by ending rebellion and rooting out insurrection, refused to discriminate based on anything but merit, and gave chance after chance for his targets of conquest to lay down their arms and embrace Imperial rule. (Before the final invasion, he even air-dropped linkpearls on Eorzea promising the full resources of the Empire towards security and unity should they accept Imperial rule and take up arms against the tribes.)

From our point of view, he mercilessly annihilated anything and everything that didn't fit his worldview and offered a "choice" of death or enslavement in a misguided campaign to rid the world of symptoms of its illness while only exacerbating it.

In the gray - if you look closely, he made efforts to "save" everyone who might end up coming around to join him - to "bring glory to the Empire and stability to the world". He only gave up on people who embraced the primals and insurrection and strange powers that jeopardized the campaign (and then he brutally destroyed them).

Remember how furious Gaius was when Rhitahtyn fell and the only thing that made sense to him was that his soldiers just didn't fight their hardest because their commander was a Roegadyn from a conquered land? That's the kind of honor I point to. (Cut to Varis spitting on the casket of a member of his family.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

If you're referring exclusively to the Waking Sands raid... the casualties were likely a result of Livia's rather loose morality (and sanity).

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That's how I felt about it as well.
Not that I'm implying that Gaius cared very much, given their connection, the results, and the loyalties of the dead.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

In reality, though, I think it was Elidibus' doing. The two worked very closely in later patches, and Elidibus was often seen trying to keep him on-mission. I think he convinced him to think bigger and heed his guidance.

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Just for the sake of discussion, since we don't know either way, I'm not sure I agree with this.

The key thing here is that Elidibus may have thought he convinced Lahabrea to work with him, reigning him in from being so rash, but I don't really think that was the reality. Lahabrea's little side group from 2.0's ending seemingly has a different desire, being more hasty and forcing an early rejoining; according to 3.0's epilogue, that particular rejoining was not agreed upon by "the others," or by Elidibus, so I don't see Lahabrea as truly working with Elidibus at all other than in a temporary truce, or as a slap on the hand.

It would also explain why Elidibus would offer Urianger either the knowledge of, or possibly gifting the actual item itself, white auracite, despite seemingly being surprised at Lahabrea's 3.0 plans. He knew there was a risk of Lahabrea acting out again - just like he did.

Was it not Moenbryda who deduced the power of white auracite and its ability to be used against Ascians? Even further Urianger explicitly tells us the white auracite he gifts us was from Moenbryda's effects.

While it's not entirely impossible Elidibus helped move these pieces in to place, we have no real evidence to support it either.

Disclaimers:
These are just my current theories and interpretations. They could change quite easily.
I'm not arguing alternative interpretations as wrong - just answering questions about my own (and long before they've been polished).

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

The key thing here is that Elidibus may have thought he convinced Lahabrea to work with him, reigning him in from being so rash, but I don't really think that was the reality.

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I had chalked that up as Elidibus failing to keep him on-mission, hence the foreshadowing earlier where Lahabrea cared more about his plans than Zodiark's will. Kind of a semantic difference, no? Either way, they seemingly worked together for at least long enough to not bother with Omega directly. Elidibus seemed more angry at Lahabrea's arrogance and complacency than his actual attempt to initiate the Eighth rejoining. It was Nabriales he claimed was acting above his station. Rather, he says that the loss of Lahabrea will be felt deeply, since he was an "original" (of our world, touched by Zodiark).

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

It would also explain why Elidibus would offer Urianger either the knowledge of, or possibly gifting the actual item itself, white auracite, despite seemingly being surprised at Lahabrea's 3.0 plans.

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I see the big open door for this interpretation (considering Urianger has been hearing Elidibus out and suddenly found an extra auracite). But, at the same time, I wonder if that is enough evidence to jump to discounting what we've been told (that it Moenbryda's research and she had a a back-up in her personal belongings, which he found after they reclaimed the Rising Stones). Do we have more than that?

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I'm also not sure the whole mortal-primal bit was Elidibus' doing, either, at least not with Thordan.

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That's just my current theory (hence lots of words like seems).
I'm guessing that they split the work - Elidibus worked on the Echo, Lahabrea worked on the primal merge.
In the "something's up in Ishgard" foreshadow cutscene, they were both standing behind Thordan's throne.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Elidibus clearly doesn't want the Triad awakening via Primals, and what was Thordan doing?

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First impressions? Betraying the Ascians in ways Lahabrea - in his arrogance and complacency - did not foresee or account for.
Elidibus seems more ready for the Garleans to be messing with the Triad.
I actually forget if Thordan talked much of the Slumbering Gods directly to Lahabrea.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Based on Elidibus' conversation with Minfilia about how defeat had stuck in his craw, I like to imagine that he was regaining his strength, reformulating his plan, and skulking about Ascian HQ - yelling into the void and kicking things.

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Before anything else, can I just say how delighted I am that "yelling into the void" needn't be figurative?

Cloud of Darkness: "Damn man, just shut the hell up!"

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Originally Posted by Rocl

Was it not Moenbryda who deduced the power of white auracite and its ability to be used against Ascians? Even further Urianger explicitly tells us the white auracite he gifts us was from Moenbryda's effects.

While it's not entirely impossible Elidibus helped move these pieces in to place, we have no real evidence to support it either.

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The general idea is that it seems really, really odd that all the way through Heavensward Urianger knew about you, but suddenly decided to go through Moenbryda's belongings to find a dues ex machina that, theoretically, could have helped you much sooner. Right before you go up against Lahabrea, nonetheless.

If that's not completely suspicious, I don't know what is.

That or it's just SE being lazy in their storytelling method and not finding another way to give us a white auracite so they're like "Let's have a long-dead character just have a spare item of incredible power and usefulness, because no one really checked."

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

The general idea is that it seems really, really odd that all the way through Heavensward Urianger knew about you, but suddenly decided to go through Moenbryda's belongings to find a dues ex machina that, theoretically, could have helped you much sooner. Right before you go up against Lahabrea, nonetheless.

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I agree that it's suspicious, but for the sake of a Devil's Advocate...

Moenbryda's effects were in the Rising Stones. After her death, Urianger went back to the Waking Sands to work out his emotional state. He couldn't even bring himself to go to the Scions' memorial, never mind start going through her things. That's a post-closure thing; he wasn't ready.

While he was in Thanalan, you met with Midgardsormr and went about the Steps of Faith. The success of that led to the feast in Ul'dah, where everything went to hell and the Rising Stones were lost. From there, you don't actually reclaim the Rising Stones until Nanamo is awakened.

In Heavensward, Urianger spent most of his time dealing with the Ul'dah situation (Raubahn, Pipin, etc.) while you went about the Aery, rebellion in Ishgard, and Bismarck ... and then he was right is back with you again to find Y'shtola. He might not even have made it to the Rising Stones until you went off to find Matoya and build the aetheric ram. He shows up with the Auracite just after you get back.

For all we know he'd just gotten there, resolved to go through her stuff, and - hot damn - she'd had a back-up auracite.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

snip.

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I can suspend my disbelief to some extent, but honestly in this case Urianger's timing was just too damn good. It was too convenient. It will be very jarring for me, as a player, if it just ends up as one massive coincidence of perfect timing and I will be beyond disappointed in the method chosen by SE to give the item to us.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I can suspend my disbelief to some extent, but honestly in this case Urianger's timing was just too damn good. It was too convenient.

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I never felt like anything was off about it. In retrospect it does seem a bit convenient, but as the one Ascian who has so far shown a speck of decorum I have a hard time believing Elidibus would sell out Lahabrea and Igeyorhm even though they went rogue. While he does disagree with Lahabrea's actions during 2.0, he still believes they were worth it, as they led to unexpected results (finding us). He also seems (flatly) annoyed that the duo was actually killed and that he has to clean up their mess.

Plus, with King Thordan as a seemingly unknown variable, we only had the one Auracite. If Elidibus wanted them both killed, he would have supplied us with two; though we don't yet know the rarity of the material, I'm quite confident he could easily obtain it. Why didn't he? (And please don't say it was "to teach them a lesson;" I'm pretty sure they all learned we were seriously dangerous after Nabriales' death. Lahabrea remained arrogant, and Igeyorhm wasn't yet on the stage.)