3.1 PLD Changes

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Except they are not trying to force more imbalance, they are trying to force balance.

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They aren't forcing balance. They've got imbalance - an imbalance that is going to persist over an 8-month period. They've got a gaping hole between Paladin and the other two tanks. Warrior has a guaranteed raid slot.

I play all three in Savage AS1-3 regularly; Paladin's mitigation is inconsequential, it's utilities are poorly integrated to the point of being useless by design, and the producer really believes that spot-fixing "TP issues" without addressing the key deficiencies with their design is acceptable. Paladin is worse categorically across the board in practical situations.
You have rambling responses of what could be or what will be or how they intended this or how content can change this or that and it's all WORTHLESS WORDS because it doesn't address the current situation or the current oversights and the persisting design flaws that created the situation - you fail to see that all tanks need to be relevant in both tanking slots regardless of content. They aren't. It doesn't matter how much you polish a turd it's still a turd.

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Originally Posted by Yonanja

I'm going to stop argueing with you after this post, since you're obviously in favor of class inbalance and "flavor of the month", for some strange reason. It's made obvious by your examples, since nothing you've put forward would make the inbalance less, just shift it around.

But as you seem to only listen to the voice of YoshiP, who've said ALOT of things that turned out not to be even close to the real result, I don't think that there is any point in continuing to argue with you. Let's just agree to disagree, and you can keep enjoying your inbalanced classes and FotM, and I can keep on hating it.

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Brian has mentioned constantly a lack of content-based balancing in game; the examples that can be given from in-game, therefore, lack overall balance, even if certain parts of those examples point at possible better designs. Individually, these examples, each taken from a small part of existent encounters might imply FotM choices. But if the overall balance of each encounter were improved, such that each tank would have a relatively equal value across (all parts of) the encounter through their various, different advantages, leaving no clear FotM choice. This seems pretty clear. It's just a different way of balancing the jobs (and, frankly, accessory choice) without having to homogenize them. Nor is it mutually exclusive with class changes. It is simply another avenue for providing balance, and one that SE has actually admitted their faults in with this last tier. True balance will likely still take a bit of tuning on the job side as well. But to design content that actually makes use of their differences, as in entirely unique strengths rather than just difference in strengths in common among all three, increases the ways we have to retain tank identity without leaving one or more behind.

Not trying to be defensive, especially in regards to a post that is not my own, but it seems unreasonable to push aside what, as far as I can see, is a very valid main point, and with it the entire other half of job design (the environments they work in).

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Originally Posted by Dhex

They aren't forcing balance. They've got imbalance - an imbalance that is going to persist over an 8-month period. They've got a gaping hole between Paladin and the other two tanks. Warrior has a guaranteed raid slot.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Except they are not trying to force more imbalance, they are trying to force balance.

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We've established that the current meta stinks and most likely these changes will do little to fix it. The point is what they could do. But can we really say that even if PLD is given as much MT (assuming Grit/Def/Shield) dps as DRK or WAR, and if it somehow gained DRK or WAR-level AoE, it would be taken? It would still ultimately be burdened with abilities that see little to no use in most situations. If we are to follow the general assuption (e.g. in Bards/MCHs) that having these utility options will have cost you elsewhere, however faintly, but should improve the situation of the raid as a whole through their/your being present and able, then those abilities cannot just go unused. PLD abilities may well need changes to cast and recast times, CDs, range, and costs, but they'll also likely need places where they provide a noticeable benefit, rather than just just a slightly greater raid healing/mitigation output, etc. (and whatever opportunities that gives), than they could put out personal dps for the time being, especially given that they've been stuck in a least favored position for months.

For instance, I'd like to see SB's enmity mod and RoH's potency boosted slightly for more enmity output. Due to personal preference, I'd have preferred to see Shield Swipe boosted to 220 potency rather than being made an oGCD, and for Shield Oath to no longer reduce Shield-based damage (as an oGCD, our TP problems will merely have worsened in a few cases, and dungeon runs just got a lot more annoying without Swipe's refresh component). For the purpose of some goddamn AoE damage, I'd have liked to see some other change to our "Shield" abilities (be it Oath, Swipe, and/or Bash) to provide that AoE at least in MT position. I'd like for Flash to remain relevant (for more than just enmity). But even after all those changes might go out and PLD is arguably "not shit", even if each of its abilities were individually worthy, whether a PLD gets to go in depends on the fight itself. Even if I were to try my hardest to balance PLD and fill its needs, I won't actually know what needs those are (beyond general competence, while hopefully retaining uniqueness/identity) until the next tier of content (partly because I don't know whether SE will be able to really balance said tier, and suspect that if they do more or less manage to 'balance' it, that balance will rely on general measures and by avoiding challenges that would make any differences apparent, rather than simply trying to present a near-equal total of uniquely advantageous situations).

The fact that their answer to PLD being terrible is attempting to design content to cater to it rather than fixing the godawful class makes me wonder if they just live in perpetual fear of 2.0 2X PLDs going and killing Twintania and have like, literal nightmares about that gold-on-blue shield party icon.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Brian has mentioned constantly a lack of content-based balancing in game; the examples that can be given from in-game, therefore, lack overall balance, even if certain parts of those examples point at possible better designs. Individually, these examples, each taken from a small part of existent encounters might imply FotM choices. But if the overall balance of each encounter were improved, such that each tank would have a relatively equal value across (all parts of) the encounter through their various, different advantages, leaving no clear FotM choice. This seems pretty clear. It's just a different way of balancing the jobs (and, frankly, accessory choice) without having to homogenize them. Nor is it mutually exclusive with class changes.

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There will always be a superior choice when you take this approach. You can try to create a scenario where different advantages help in leading to the clear in different ways, but once people figure out the best way to do it, that will become the standard. That's just an aspect of human nature that is part of the landscape in ANYTHING that involves more than one player.

And why are we going back to demonizing performance parity? Especially when the lack of performance parity is one of the main culprits behind the problems we're currently seeing (encounter design being another)?

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It is simply another avenue for providing balance, and one that SE has actually admitted their faults in with this last tier. True balance will likely still take a bit of tuning on the job side as well. But to design content that actually makes use of their differences, as in entirely unique strengths rather than just difference in strengths in common among all three, increases the ways we have to retain tank identity without leaving one or more behind.

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Class identity can still come from mechanics, abilities and aesthetics while still remaining equal to other members of the roster in performance. Are you really that bothered by WAR and DRK dealing the same damage as a PLD?

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But can we really say that even if PLD is given as much MT (assuming Grit/Def/Shield) dps as DRK or WAR, and if it somehow gained DRK or WAR-level AoE, it would be taken? It would still ultimately be burdened with abilities that see little to no use in most situations.

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Which is not a bad thing. The utility PLD was given is not the type that is or should be needed all the time. This is why I facepalm at the people who complain about Clemency not being a mandatory ability in the rotation (it's situational off-healing, emphasis on situational) and those that expect Divine Veil to be up all the time, every time (because expecting to do so would be like expecting this or this to be used every time it's up instead of during oh-shit moments).

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Originally Posted by Dhex

It doesn't matter how much you polish a turd it's still a turd.

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This sums up Paladin pretty well right now. That's no knight; it's just a turd in shining armor. >:|

(I'm trying to laugh at this but I think it just hits too close to home atm.)

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The utility PLD was given is not needed. This is why I facepalm.

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Fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Which is not a bad thing. The utility PLD was given is not the type that is or should be needed all the time.

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The problem is that almost every PLD's utility is situationnal, or unreliable.
Clemency is far too long to cast to be an emergency heal, and no healer will really count on you for healing someone else.
Awareness was...useful (I guess) in T11...except than since the ensured critical hit was an AoE, the party had to mitigate the damage anyway, and it was after an add phase, not really damage heavy on the tank.

And you can add to it that a lot of content just plain negates some of PLD's skills.

Blind ? Most bosses are immune. Pacification ? Same. Chain Stun ? Either immune, or only requires one precise Stun less often than 30s, so other tanks are better since they're not delayed by GCD.
I didn't play PLD on A3, but I wouldn't be surprised if Ferrofluid just plain ignores Tempered Will, like Typhoon does.

As sad as this makes me it does not suprise me anyone who played FFXI pre expansion knows SE doesnt care about paladin much, in that game ninja tanks were gods in comparison to paladins they could do great dps evade 95% of attacks and debuff paladins did no dps took massive damage and in exchange they could cast 2-3 heals per mana bar....now here we are paladins can heal nice have great defense, but both other tanks are superior we can pretend they arent, but they are, more utility more OT and MT dps....and this is from a FFXI PLD and a FFXIV PLD

It is not as bad as in FF XI.
But yes, Paladin is in a bad spot.
As long as Warrior, in it's current state is a better Tank and a better DPS than us, in any current Content of 3.x.
Even Dark Knight is only slightly weaker agains Physical DMG than us, but therefor better in taking magical DMG...well ofc. his DPS is way higher than ours.

Paladin is meant to be:

- Best Tank
- Lowest Tank DPS

Actually we are not the best Tank (it is Warrior), but we are the Tank with the lowest DPS (Reason?!?).

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Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

As sad as this makes me it does not suprise me anyone who played FFXI pre expansion knows SE doesnt care about paladin much, in that game ninja tanks were gods in comparison to paladins they could do great dps evade 95% of attacks and debuff paladins did no dps took massive damage and in exchange they could cast 2-3 heals per mana bar

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Even back in FFXI, people asked more and more to buff PLD's damage.
And even back then, I thought that it was stupid. For me, PLD don't need to lean on the DPS side, but on the healing side. Make it so that a good PLD doesn't need a dedicated healer.

Which, by the way, was possible in FFXI, either with Ochain + Shield Mastery + DNC Subjob. Or by combining bonus to cure potency/cure received, and items that gives you MP back whenever you take damage.

Than we should rename Warrior to Paldin and Paladin to Warrior? Because currently, Warrior can heal himself way, way, way, way better, than Paladin.
Actually we have a crappy Heal (Clemency) and a medicore Divine Veil (that gives an absorb to the raid but not us). Damn Warrior is even a better Raid Supporter than us.

If we're looking at the past of the franchise, PLD should have been the self-healing tank.
But, scratch that, this is FFXIV, not "mandatory Final Fantasy concepts"

Problem is, in 1.x, PLD WAS the self-healing, self-sufficient tank. The only real downside was a garbage enmity generation...and WAR damage that was even better than actual DPS jobs...
And still, lorewise, PLD is the tank that dwells in magic, requiring the basic knowledge of healing from its CNJ training.

And, if they don't want to make it a self-sufficient MT, make it a really potent back-up healer as an OT. Make Clemency's potency increase based on the target's enmity, and they would become the very best friend of any WAR or DRK..and, judging by the animation, Sheltron should block any attack in front of you, even if you're not the target, and even on AoE.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Clemency is far too long to cast to be an emergency heal, and no healer will really count on you for healing someone else.

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There are reasons Clemency is inconvenient to use. Firstly so that raids don't start forcing their tanks to start healing (this is something I absolutely hated in 1.0, so I'm happy it's gone). Secondly because the heal is relatively strong and even when not used on someone else, easy use of Clemency would notably bump PLD survivability. I'm not entirely against changing Clemency, but if you want to make it easy to use then it needs a cooldown or some other limitation (like consuming your entire MP bar and letting you only be able to cast it when your MP is at 50% of your total MP). Turning it into something akin to Lay On Hands would also be an option (provided they keep the cooldown).

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Awareness was...useful (I guess) in T11...except than since the ensured critical hit was an AoE, the party had to mitigate the damage anyway, and it was after an add phase, not really damage heavy on the tank.

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I got nothing on this. Awareness is a wasted ability slot, but most of us know that already.

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Blind ? Most bosses are immune.

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Blinding boss mobs would be overpowered.

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Pacification ? Same.

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This would also be overpowered.

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Chain Stun ? Either immune, or only requires one precise Stun less often than 30s, so other tanks are better since they're not delayed by GCD.

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This is largely a result of the poor way the developers have implemented interrupts into the game. They also have to space out interrupts where applicable because of stun diminishing returns/immunity (an issue that wouldn't exist if we had real interrupts).

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I didn't play PLD on A3, but I wouldn't be surprised if Ferrofluid just plain ignores Tempered Will, like Typhoon does.

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Eh, I'm willing to make concessions on mechanics not allowing me to cheese them, so I wouldn't be too heartbroken if that were the case.

Oh yeah. Clemency with 1.5 sec Casttime would really be sooo overpowered. I could heal the entire Raid myself until...

...oh wait, I'm out of Mana after two Clemency? Can't heal again for ~6-7 GCD.
Clemency with 1.5 sec Casttime would be a great tool against Magical DMG and to WTF heal a DD/Heal/MT at 20% HP left.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

There are reasons Clemency is inconvenient to use. Firstly so that raids don't start forcing their tanks to start healing (this is something I absolutely hated in 1.0, so I'm happy it's gone). Secondly because the heal is relatively strong and even when not used on someone else, easy use of Clemency would notably bump PLD survivability.

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Isn't survivability...supposed to be our thing ? And frankly, raids force their tank to DPS, so, why not heal ?
We could legitimately say "You don't want to play a tank that heal ? Then don't play PLD" like you wouldn't play WAR if you don't want others expecting you to do great DPS.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Blinding boss mobs would be overpowered.

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No, it wouldn't. It's not like Blind makes everything automatically miss. It's exactly like an Evasion boost, but for the other part of the equation. It was useful against Titan HM, to dodge Moutain Buster (God, it felt so satysfying :) ), but not to the point of breaking the game.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

pacification would also be overpowered.

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How ? It's only a form of interruption, and you can't spam it. But if you really think it's too much, replace it with a few seconds of reduced damaged, like reprisal. Again, reducing damage is supposed to be OUR thing.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

They also have to space out interrupts where applicable because of stun diminishing returns/immunity (an issue that wouldn't exist if we had real interrupts).

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You see, the fun part is that bosses build absolutely no resist on some debuffs. Storm's Eye and Path are always fully applied, Reprisal, too...

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Originally Posted by Cheraa

...oh wait, I'm out of Mana after two Clemency? Can't heal again for ~6-7 GCD.

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Fun fact : Riot Blade and Syphon Strike have exactly the same purpose. But, not only is Syphon Strike stronger, it also gives back the exact cost of one Unleash, whereas one Riot Blade does not compensate for the cost of one Flash...just...why ? (Keep in mind that Flash and Unleash cost the same)

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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PLD's heal spell even being made instant wouldn't be OP and instead probably would be used for tank busters moving forward and would be a nudge in the right direction to get PLD's to enable healer's to DPS a lot more as other people actually want to claim. Also you're already limited in the use of the spell as it can only be used to times.

As for the rest being OP as you stated, I've no doubt that the development team sees it that way as well. But that is in fact the problem. If they believe that the skills are OP, then they should strip them away and instead place in abilities that we can use in a consistent tactical manner instead of giving us abilities that are cut out from a portion of the game due to "balance". I'd actually like that, because as it stands now it means that the development team instead of making fights that everyone can clear will instead have to make content that panders heavily to PLD's current abilities to make it stand out and that's horrible game design

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Originally Posted by Seku

I'd actually like that, because as it stands now it means that the development team instead of making fights that everyone can clear will instead have to make content that panders heavily to PLD's current abilities to make it stand out and that's horrible game design

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Like they did with Dark Knight?

Did the changes to PLD make Shield Swipe an oGCD without needing to proc? Or, in addition to a 15sec recast, it also requires a successful shield block to proc. If it does need proc, then eh, I guess it's fine-but makes it worthless when offtanking.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Did the changes to PLD make Shield Swipe an oGCD without needing to proc? Or, in addition to a 15sec recast, it also requires a successful shield block to proc. If it does need proc, then eh, I guess it's fine-but makes it worthless when offtanking.

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still needs a block proc

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Originally Posted by Isius

still needs a block proc

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So it's functionally very similar to Reprisal.

Yeah, a more active version of reprisal. Sucks that it needs a proc, it would have been fun bashing things every 15 seconds when Offtanking as an added oGCD damage ability like Spirits Within.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

So it's functionally very similar to Reprisal.

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I would say Reprisal is functionally better.

pot is about the same:

3 x swipes = 450 pot extra per minute

2 x reprisals = 420 pot extra per minute

but with darkness up all the time 2 reprisals will likely do more dps then 3 swipes, someone else can do the math for that

swipe gets pacify while reprisal gets -10% dmg down

swipe would be better for normal dungeon runs, while reprisal would be good with most of savage.

overall reprisal is better, similar in activition requirements but not the same in strength or utility.

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Originally Posted by Isius

3 x swipes = 450 pot extra per minute

2 x reprisals = 420 pot extra per minute

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Huh? Why 3? It should be 4... 2 guaranteed under control because of Sheltron, and 1 with a very high chance of proc because of Bulwark... at least in the offensive department Shield Swipe does beat Reprisal for quite the margin :/

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Isn't survivability...supposed to be our thing ? And frankly, raids force their tank to DPS, so, why not heal?

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We already have plenty of survivability via our cooldowns. And there's a lot of things wrong with a tank being forced to DPS in raids the way this game does. The tank focuses on surviving and holding aggro, not doing the healer's job for them.

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No, it wouldn't. It's not like Blind makes everything automatically miss. It's exactly like an Evasion boost, but for the other part of the equation. It was useful against Titan HM, to dodge Moutain Buster (God, it felt so satysfying :) ), but not to the point of breaking the game.

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Trivializing boss abilities, even in an RNG fashion the way Blind would allow, is simply too much. Which to me is not that different from asking to be able to stun/silence Judgement Nisi or Ravana's liberation attacks.

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How? It's only a form of interruption, and you can't spam it. But if you really think it's too much, replace it with a few seconds of reduced damaged, like reprisal. Again, reducing damage is supposed to be OUR thing.

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Now you're talking about changing the effects of Shield Swipe as a whole. I'm not opposed to this per se, but that's a discussion for another topic.

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You see, the fun part is that bosses build absolutely no resist on some debuffs. Storm's Eye and Path are always fully applied, Reprisal, too...

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You missed my point. You'd see a wider use of interrupt mechanics if they weren't status effects that lasted a couple of seconds. Raids used to have to work out interrupt rotations (which largely involved the melee DPS in the raid) for bosses in WoW because those fights were tuned around the raid interrupting certain boss abilities to actually get the clear (whose use range from mitigating tank/raid damage like with Kel'thuzad or avoiding effects that created massive inconveniences to the raid like with General Vezzax).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

We already have plenty of survivability via our cooldowns. And there's a lot of things wrong with a tank being forced to DPS in raids the way this game does. The tank focuses on surviving and holding aggro, not doing the healer's job for them.
Trivializing boss abilities, even in an RNG fashion the way Blind would allow, is simply too much. Which to me is not that different from asking to be able to stun/silence Judgement Nisi or Ravana's liberation attacks.
Now you're talking about changing the effects of Shield Swipe as a whole. I'm not opposed to this per se, but that's a discussion for another topic.
You missed my point. You'd see a wider use of interrupt mechanics if they weren't status effects that lasted a couple of seconds. Raids used to have to work out interrupt rotations (which largely involved the melee DPS in the raid) for bosses in WoW because those fights were tuned around the raid interrupting certain boss abilities to actually get the clear (whose use range from mitigating tank/raid damage like with Kel'thuzad or avoiding effects that created massive inconveniences to the raid like with General Vezzax).

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Fluid Aura and any ability with knockback too OP. Plz Nerf.
http://i.imgur.com/cwVEatj.gifv

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Huh? Why 3? It should be 4... 2 guaranteed under control because of Sheltron, and 1 with a very high chance of proc because of Bulwark... at least in the offensive department Shield Swipe does beat Reprisal for quite the margin :/

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asking for 4 shield swipes to line up just right in a 60 sec time window is asking a bit much, and only happens when it works out perfectly, 3 shield swipes every 60 secs is more realistic. But yeah Shield Swipes activaction will get better with more patches that bring us better shields that will up that number, but still 4 shields swipes is asking for a perfect scenario.

after playing pld a little more with the new changes I find the change okay, and less clumsy to use then I first thought, but it is really just a minor dps increase while mting.

* I am not going to hold back or use Bulwark for a 150 pot move, procing shield swipe will just be a bonus if I am using Bulwark atm, and that is about it...it's not the same as Bulwark+Shield Swipe combo we had back in 2.x.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The tank focuses on surviving and holding aggro

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I think "focuses" is a tricky word. Yes, it's the main goal of the tank, but it's also its most basic role. So, again, if you don't offer something else, you'll always be less interesting.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Trivializing boss abilities, even in an RNG fashion the way Blind would allow, is simply too much.

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Technically, if Blind really affects the ability, it means that there is an Accuracy check. So, there is a slight chance that you could dodge the ability, even without Blind. Since most of physical abilities can be parried or blocked, we can assume that the parry/block check are rolled, and thus that the Accuracy check is not bypassed. If we never saw a Dodge on physical buster, maybe those buster have an accuracy bonus so high that you ensure 100% hit. This way, Blind could help mitigate lower hits, without trivializing tank busters.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Now you're talking about changing the effects of Shield Swipe as a whole. I'm not opposed to this per se, but that's a discussion for another topic.

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It's only because you'd think pacification would be overpowered, which I don't really agree on, but...why not.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You missed my point.

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Well, I wasn't really debating on your point. It just reminded me that PLD is the only tank whose most debuffs can be fully resisted after a while. So, even our situationnal utility is further weakened...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I think "focuses" is a tricky word. Yes, it's the main goal of the tank, but it's also its most basic role. So, again, if you don't offer something else, you'll always be less interesting.

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Mileage varies. I'm perfectly happy with tanking being about holding aggro and surviving hits. I'm also happy with utility being optional and not mandatory, since utility should never take away from your main role. Which means if you're a tank and happen to have heals, those heals have to come at an opportunity cost and be inconvenient enough to not intrude on what you're there to do. It's one of those things that come with being or leaning towards being hybrid (the latter being the case for PLD), hence why I have trouble understanding how people continue to struggle with the concept.

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Technically, if Blind really affects the ability, it means that there is an Accuracy check. So, there is a slight chance that you could dodge the ability, even without Blind. Since most of physical abilities can be parried or blocked, we can assume that the parry/block check are rolled, and thus that the Accuracy check is not bypassed. If we never saw a Dodge on physical buster, maybe those buster have an accuracy bonus so high that you ensure 100% hit. This way, Blind could help mitigate lower hits, without trivializing tank busters.

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Boss damage output is tuned around all its abilities, not just tank busters. Trivializing any major hit or ability would still be too much. Toying with accuracy in this case would get a pass if we were talking about dodging auto attacks, but auto-attacks from boss mobs don't really matter here the way they do in other games.

Since Titan seems to be a popular example, even if you're not trivializing (AKA entirely avoiding or negating) the damage from Mountain Buster, you also have stuff like Rock Buster and Tumult to worry about. And chances are the expected damage tanks take per the design involve those abilities, not just whether the tank survives Mountain Buster or not. Hence why trivializing ANY aspect of the fight outside of abilities that the raid has to react to is too much (imagine if for example, Pacification prevented Titan from using Tumult; that's a shit ton of raid damage you're trivializing over the course of the fight). It'd be another story if the fight had been designed so that, say, the raid had to absolutely interrupt every Landslide (which instead of a line ability would be something that covers the entire arena) in order to get the clear. Then the strategy prioritizes getting through phases and DPS (or whomever has the plentiful interrupts) interrupting what they need to interrupt in order to actually kill Titan.

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Well, I wasn't really debating on your point. It just reminded me that PLD is the only tank whose most debuffs can be fully resisted after a while. So, even our situationnal utility is further weakened...

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As I said, there is such a thing as leeway to prevent cheesing boss fights.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

When I played WoW from Vanilla through BC, they constantly adjusted classes to try and reach a point of balance. The result? FotM. The classes just played musical chairs every patch -- when the music stopped and the patch hit, there would be winners and losers. Why would it be any different in FFXIV? Just because they adjust classes instead of content doesn't mean it won't be FotM.

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Comparing this game to WoW is stupid on so many levels. Blizzard have never been known for being able to balance classes well in their RPGs, be it WoW or Diablo. Also, every class in WoW is a hybrid, expected to be able to perfom more than one task, this makes balancing extremely harder. And as far as I know Blizz have never tried to rebalance a whole role (and all the classes in it) at one time, all they've done is having kneejerk reactions to the issues that have come up, very similar to how the devs do things currently in FF.

Balance is reached when there is no FotM classes, something that is impossible to achieve as long as the focus is on balancing the encounters around different classes with vastly different performances. What they need to do to reach a balanced state is to first balance the classes and then look at the encounters. But I don't think that will ever happens, since I doubt even the devs know what they want to do with this game.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Mileage varies. I'm perfectly happy with tanking being about holding aggro and surviving hits.

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If holding aggro and surviving hits is the only appeal for you, you have the luxury to pick any tank you want, since they're mostly on par with each other. Again, the problem with PLD is that it doesn't really offer more than that.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Since Titan seems to be a popular example, even if you're not trivializing (AKA entirely avoiding or negating) the damage from Mountain Buster, you also have stuff like Rock Buster and Tumult to worry about.

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And, I'm pretty sure every boss have the same type of attacks that Blind couldn't affect.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

(imagine if for example, Pacification prevented Titan from using Tumult; that's a shit ton of raid damage you're trivializing over the course of the fight).

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You know what mitigates shit ton of raid damage in Titan ? Faster kills. So, by bringing a more offensive tank, you'll effectively take less overall damage. And if Titan builds some pacification resist, it's not like you could prevent him from doing all Tumult. Besides, Shield Swipe still needs a Block, so you can't pop it whenever you want. And even more now that it sits on a 15s cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Yonanja

first balance the classes and then look at the encounters. But I don't think that will ever happens, since I doubt even the devs know what they want to do with this game.

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You say this like it's freakin' easy. "Oh, yeah...they just need to do that". You're missing a few things:
1. Devs always have a well-defined idea of what they want a class/job to do. *This is software design 101. Figure out what everything does!*
2. You cannot always predict what players are going to do with the dev design. *You cannot test everything.*
3. The easiest way to conform to the original dev design without breaking the game completely is to make tweaks to certain abilities. *If people don't like the original dev design, there are other class/job options.*

Everyone always complains and says, "The devs have no idea what they're doing". Actually, they do. FFXIV is definitely one of the better games in terms of job design and balance. Each job has an intended role that it fits very well, on the whole. Yes, sometimes a job suffers here or there, but the adjustments made usually make up for that -- WHILE still allowing the job to conform to the intended design.

The problem is, everyone wants to sit there and have it their way. Well, sorry...YOUR WAY isn't really what the devs are going to do. (If you're lucky, they'll do it "close" to your way.) If you always want it your way in a game, then go develop your own dang game!

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Originally Posted by Duelle

There will always be a superior choice when you take this approach. You can try to create a scenario where different advantages help in leading to the clear in different ways, but once people figure out the best way to do it, that will become the standard. That's just an aspect of human nature that is part of the landscape in ANYTHING that involves more than one player.

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Does that standard explicitly not include more than one tank, or are we just waxing generalities? What's the alternative? Should I give up on the idea of them being balanced? If you mean that we should be looking less at the cruxes of the fight and more about how the different jobs handle the 'white numbers' or the more arbitrary considerations of the fight, I can understand that, but... what you're saying here... doesn't point anywhere.

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And why are we going back to demonizing performance parity? Especially when the lack of performance parity is one of the main culprits behind the problems we're currently seeing (encounter design being another)?

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Noting a second method is not the same as demonizing the first. I find two methods less restrictive than just one. I've been suggesting further parity for PLD in terms of dps and less niched mitigation since 3.0... I just think it may also take adjustments on to the raid environment itself, and would have preferred that not just be by reversing the niched situation (e.g. all of Thordan's tankbusters are physical, the dps requirements are relatively lenient aside from wanting to clear the hell out of last phase, most of the intensive dps phases do not simultaneously involve tanking, and there's no AoE dps to be done). Because, for better or worse, tank value comes in context. Just as a tank with zero AoE damage (apart from CoS) loses nothing in a fight without AoEs, a tank with off-healing capabilities gains nothing if there's no point at which he can use it significantly.

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Class identity can still come from mechanics, abilities and aesthetics while still remaining equal to other members of the roster in performance. Are you really that bothered by WAR and DRK dealing the same damage as a PLD?

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Never said otherwise. I have no issue with PLD doing the same dps as WAR and DRK, but let's face it. WAR and DRK don't even do the "same" damage. Depending on the very particular situation, one will come out ahead of the other. Now, my personal preference (though other outcomes will not bother me) is that PLD would be to tanks much like NIN is to DPS, so to speak, but mostly because I feel like this expands the options available to the tank role, assuming first that each tank has a mostly viable toolset, and is wholly viable in the context of each encounter. I like options.

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Which is not a bad thing. The utility PLD was given is not the type that is or should be needed all the time. This is why I facepalm at the people who complain about Clemency not being a mandatory ability in the rotation (it's situational off-healing, emphasis on situational) and those that expect Divine Veil to be up all the time, every time (because expecting to do so would be like expecting this or this to be used every time it's up instead of during oh-shit moments).

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Here we'll have to disagree to some extent. I think it is a bad thing, albeit just barely. If you can go an entire fight without using an ability, that's fine. To go an entire fight without having reason to use an ability, is not fine. Granted, this differs depending on the resource cost (be it a CD or mana requirements), but for an ability to be left entirely for "oh shit" moments is like saying that a Bard is balanced against another dps when it has no benefit for its songs unless things go horribly, horribly wrong (luckily Rain of Death makes that rare, since you can always squeeze out more healer dps with Foes even without caster dps) - oh except that, for PLD, it most likely won't go off in time... /shrug.

I've solo-healed the MT through the A4N's 3x Perpetual Ray spam many a time since it lost its weekly lockout while my healers were killing themselves with Nist or bombs or just generally being headless. It's great, relatively speaking, when it's the only healing output your party has. Divine Veil is great when you would have all died by 8% health. The problem is that it depends on either cutting edge progression or failure. It's niched, but not in a way that typically adds options to the encounter. Instead, it simply devalues PLD in most situations, and leaves them (if balanced in all other regards) equal in few. Slight adjustments, however, I feel could change that, leaving it wholly situational, but also much more usable.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Should I give up on the idea of them being balanced? If you mean that we should be looking less at the cruxes of the fight and more about how the different jobs handle the 'white numbers' or the more arbitrary considerations of the fight, I can understand that, but... what you're saying here... doesn't point anywhere.

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The point I was trying to make is that clinging to certain paradigms won't yield anything good. Trying to justify the WAR/PLD/DRK niches by attempting to design content to make all three useful or viable or good in a non-uniform way is a losing proposition in the end because people will still gravitate towards the "best" approach.

To ignore the incongruities in performance between the three and blaming content is doing basically just that. I think that's why people weren't satisfied with what Yoshida said about PLD. Can't speak for others, but I can say it's a combination of tank design AND content, not just one or the other.

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Here we'll have to disagree to some extent. I think it is a bad thing, albeit just barely. If you can go an entire fight without using an ability, that's fine. To go an entire fight without having reason to use an ability, is not fine. Granted, this differs depending on the resource cost (be it a CD or mana requirements), but for an ability to be left entirely for "oh shit" moments is like saying that a Bard is balanced against another dps when it has no benefit for its songs unless things go horribly, horribly wrong

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Your example is dependent on the nature of the effect/ability. Mitigation cooldowns or anything that increases survivability is generally for oh-shot moments. Hence why I mentioned Rallying Cry and Hand of Protection. There may be fights where they're not used, but when needed come in handy (Rallying Cry in particular may be used to sort of mitigate some raid damage, much like Divine Veil).

The difference lies in constant use. The people that want Divine Veil available for every time Oppressor jumps, for example, don't realize that when you make an ability reusable in short intervals it stops being "a nice help to the healers that comes into play once in a while" and becomes a mandatory thing you have to do to get the clear (because the devs will then tune damage output around the raid having that effect active). That's what separates mitigation cooldowns from things like interrupts. It also increases the value of the ability and may even force the devs to give that to the other members of the roster just to even things out; this isn't even limited only to defensive cooldowns, but all types of abilities and utility (see: Mortal Strike in WoW and the fact it had to be given out like candy because it was so useful that only Arms Warriors having it was making them too powerful/valuable).

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oh except that, for PLD, it most likely won't go off in time... /shrug.

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This is the one item I wish more people would complain about. I can probably run a test and find that post-fix Mudras activate faster than defensive cooldowns. If I end up being right I'll be really sad.

All I meant by that example is that in general this game makes us pay not only for using utility, but for merely having it. For PLD to balanced around having it and not really be able to use it puts it in a tight spot, balance-wise. Rather than leaving it on the clunky outskirts, perhaps even balancing PLD around its skills without regard to its utilities, I'd rather see these utilities get a bit more usability. But, for damn sure, I don't want them to become a mandatory component of the job, either. I just want to be able to actually use Cover, etc., worth a damn again, and for Clemency to actually go off in time in a real "oh shit" moment, because right now it only saves anyone in situations that I knew ahead of time would fail and precast for accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This is the one item I wish more people would complain about. I can probably run a test and find that post-fix Mudras activate faster than defensive cooldowns. If I end up being right I'll be really sad.

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From what I've tested, Shuriken definitely launches faster than a defensive CD takes effect, but as a finishing blow would kill slower (which is what I'll here call 'actually doing damage'). It's shitty too, because it even says on your screen '+ Sentinel' before the hit immediately after that it still just barely failed to mitigate.

...And then there's Hallowed Ground... which I can pop while the first of a 3-second damage stream hits and it won't mitigate the next two... Infamous is as infamous does.

Edit: Also, input's up on your DNC outline.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

1. Devs always have a well-defined idea of what they want a class/job to do.

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That's exactly what we doubt.
When you see content specifically designed for heavy DPS check, and a tank whose focus is officialy "mitigation", it's expected to mix...not very well