Four Ways to Die - why the Tank Meta feels "off".

Would you rather be this sort of tank? ;)

http://images.military.com/media/equ...le-tank-02.jpg

Or a brick wall? :confused:

http://images.wisegeek.com/red-brick-wall.jpg




heh heh heh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

My entire point is a tank who is worried about mitigation will still be doing damage.

---

So. The current way of tanks surviving with easily 5k+(from 15k) hp from example: A1S tank buster which hits 24k (if I remember correct) unmitigated?

And 800dps (average that I have seen out of tanks) when dps are pulling 1k dps?

That's not what you just meant with being able to mitigate big hits and dps? That's not how the tanks are just now?

Guess I just misunderstood your points and you're fine with the current way the tanks work.

/shrug

And sure, the tanks with full vit right side can be around 500 dps but quite frankly you're still taking as much dmg you just have more hp, since as far as I know vit = hp not -dmg taken.

Which means we'd need an overhaul on stats and need tank stats added for passive -dmg taken for vit accessories. If you wanted to be the "brick wall"


Edit:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

ONE THOUSAND THOUSAND DPS

---

Do excuse my typo, on phone at breaks from work, can't see everything on the tiny screen, thus signature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AniCelestine

when dps are pulling 1000k dps?

---

ONE THOUSAND THOUSAND DPS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

This is server dependent and doesn't mean much overall. The displayed average wait time is less than it was, that much is true. Solo queues still take a lot longer.
DPS are not lesser people for not wanting to tank or heal. The issue is that DPS is a heavily populated role because people in general don't like responsibility for anything in a group, and regardless of how much SE goes out of their way to make DPS jobs unattractive (see: most of the HW DPS designs), this principle will remain true.

Because of said principle DPS is a highly populated role, and anyone who has played MMOs before knows that DPS have longer queues because of it. It's something that comes with the job, just like how a wipe is blamed on the tank and the tank dying is blamed on the healer. What doesn't help is that leveling outside of dungeons in this expansion is either stupidly convoluted with no player control (FATEs) or so inconvenient to even do (temple leves) that you feel the sting of the queues more than usual

---

Well according to the Eorzea census role distribution form 31-60 is 38% healer + tank and 62% DPS which is actually pretty darn close to the distribution in a party make up if you factor in the 24 man raids as well. I'd also be willing to bet that the number of tanks has grown since the release of heavensward. So yes, while the data clearly states that DPS is a more popular role, I don't think it's as far off as people realize.

Additionally, from a business standpoint. If all players are paying the same amount of money into a pot then all players should in essence be given the same service. This includes all things in the game. Isn't it SE's contractual commitment, as a service organization in this instance, then to make the experience as similarly enjoyable for all parties? I've never met someone that didn't get excited by a instant queue. I understand that that is the "status quo" in the MMO world. I don't buy though that any company or person should settle for that because its the "status quo".

Maybe that makes me an idealist, but the world needs those too. This board is just filled with pessimism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AniCelestine

Do excuse my typo, on phone at breaks from work, can't see everything on the tiny screen, thus signature.

---

It did make me giggle though as I pictured my 1000k DPS in my head :p.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karateorangutang

Additionally, from a business standpoint. If all players are paying the same amount of money into a pot then all players should in essence be given the same service. This includes all things in the game. Isn't it SE's contractual commitment, as a service organization in this instance, then to make the experience as similarly enjoyable for all parties? I've never met someone that didn't get excited by a instant queue. I understand that that is the "status quo" in the MMO world. I don't buy though that any company or person should settle for that because its the "status quo".

---

The only thing SE is contracted to do is provide a service. "Enjoyable" is very subjective, because you may enjoy standing in the back and healing or spamming buffs, whereas I generally dislike that gameplay (one of the reasons I avoid playing healers). There's no guarantee of anything other than our ability to log on to the servers for the money we pay SE.

There are such things as structure and human nature, both of which determine the status quo. People don't like responsibility, so they'll go for the stuff that has the least responsibility in effective gameplay, which in MMO terms is the role of DPS. At rare times you have either mechanics making someone play a less popular role or the class concept overpowering that desire to avoid responsibility. This isn't something you try to force or manipulate. It's something that just happens, and you should keep in mind it won't happen all the time.

Personally, I'd like to return to a time when this was funny and something only an idiot would do, instead of having all tanks try to emulate it because design allows us to do so and we can get away with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AniCelestine

So. The current way of tanks surviving with easily 5k+(from 15k) hp from example: A1S tank buster which hits 24k (if I remember correct) unmitigated?

And 800dps (average that I have seen out of tanks) when dps are pulling 1000k dps?

That's not what you just meant with being able to mitigate big hits and dps? That's not how the tanks are just now?

Guess I just misunderstood your points and you're fine with the current way the tanks work.

/shrug

And sure, the tanks with full vit right side can be around 500 dps but quite frankly you're still taking as much dmg you just have more hp, since as far as I know vit = hp not -dmg taken.

Which means we'd need an overhaul on stats and need tank stats added for passive -dmg taken for vit accessories. If you wanted to be the "brick wall"

---

The situation as it stands right now allows what you are describing. There is no need for high vitality and players can stack strength so their tanks can pull 800 dps. We are in agreement at this point.

The problem is stacking strength is the only gear strategy.

For players like me, who are coming in from other MMOs with more conventional tanks, it feels wrong. I am used to focusing on damage mitigation a lot more. Players mockingly call this as a desire to be a "brick wall." As if I want to be an immobile obstacle for mobs to walk around.

It is not that at all.

What I want to be is a paladin as it is described in the job lore: "Known as paladins, these men and women marry exquisite swordplay with stalwart shieldwork to create a style of combat uncompromising in its defense... To be a paladin is to protect, and those who choose to walk this path will become the iron foundation upon which the party's defense is built."

To be that kind of tank, would not require an overhaul of stats. It would simply require tank busters to hit for more damage so the damage mitigation tools at my disposal (including my gear) become more important. As I continued to survive, I would feel rewarded for my good play and good gearing choices.

In short, I don't want to be a passive brick wall. I want to be an active shield and sword!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

snip

---

I'm not speaking of the classes themselves. I understand that those enjoyments are subjective to the nature of the person that is playing. Otherwise the whole formula of sectioned specialties would be worthless. This can also be applied to the whole tank conundrum as a whole.

I'm speaking simply of wait times. I don't think you can find me a person that likes waiting in a line if another option can be had.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

The situation as it stands right now allows what you are describing. There is no need for high vitality and players can stack strength so their tanks can pull 800 dps. We are in agreement at this point.

The problem is stacking strength is the only gear strategy.

For players like me, who are coming in from other MMOs with more conventional tanks, it feels wrong. I am used to focusing on damage mitigation a lot more. Players mockingly call this as a desire to be a "brick wall." As if I want to be an immobile obstacle for mobs to walk around.

It is not that at all.

What I want to be is a paladin as it is described in the job lore: "Known as paladins, these men and women marry exquisite swordplay with stalwart shieldwork to create a style of combat uncompromising in its defense... To be a paladin is to protect, and those who choose to walk this path will become the iron foundation upon which the party's defense is built."

To be that kind of tank, would not require an overhaul of stats. It would simply require tank busters to hit for more damage so the damage mitigation tools at my disposal (including my gear) become more important. As I continued to survive, I would feel rewarded for my good play and good gearing choices.

In short, I don't want to be a passive brick wall. I want to be an active shield and sword!

---

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm gonna play devil's advocate anyway :p

Making mobs hit hard could be a viable option in alot of games, but this one it would be far less effective. The problem with that is gear scaling.

The vertical progression of gear in this game makes for a steep climb in statistical attributes for all classes. If you were to take a tank buster on a boss and make it hit for 18k instead of 10k then that would indeed force tanks to mitigate the damage more, but the problem lies in gearing. Now if the tank has to gear vit at a substantially high ilvl to even make that threshhold then you might be putting an undue burden on the tank class to even enter the instance in comparison to other classes. If its not at the higher end of the ilvl spectrum then the problem would be the same as we have now. Tanks would still gear enough vit to survive and then gear STR as it would be more effective.

The other option would be to boost the amount of auto attacks, or the damage over time to the tank. This is a better option I feel as it would force both the tank and the healer to focus on the mitigation of damage over the course of the fight. This would recquire that some of the passive defensive secondary stats get a much needed boost to make them worthwhile. However, the DPS threshold for fights would have to be significantly lowered to accomidate this whole methedology and then you have the exact same issue with DPS gearing. If you did it at the high end of the spectrum you would be gating all but the most geared DPS players and if you did it at the low then you would be undermining the difficulty of the encounter for their tastes.

It's a vexing problem that they have created with the current meta and stat growth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karateorangutang

It's a vexing problem that they have created with the current meta and stat growth.

---

The trick, as always, is to find some balance somewhere in the middle. Right now, Savage is tuned toward various extremes. Incoming tank damage is at the extreme low-end (relative to achievable gear), while the DPS checks are tuned at the extreme high end. It's as though they anticipated different baseline gear levels for tanks (with respect to VIT) than they did for everyone else. Full i190 VIT isn't necessary at all for the incoming damage, DPS definitely need full i190 in *their* gear for the DPS checks. Since tanks don't have a pressing need for about half of their VIT gear, they can instead pick up DPS gear and effectively raise the raid's item level with respect to the content.

It's a weird state we're in. Hopefully with whatever adjustments they're making for 3.2, they better establish their gearing baselines for the raid design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alahra

snippity

---

There's another force at work though too. Thats the major increases in damage and survivability that even a 10 ilvl jump affords. That extreme jump in effectivness you receive when that happens is also a problem. Not only does a happy medium need to be achieved in the fight meta, but also a tuning down in how much an ilvl is worth to make encounters more difficult and balanced for longer periods of time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karateorangutang

There's another force at work though too. Thats the major increases in damage and survivability that even a 10 ilvl jump affords. That extreme jump in effectivness you receive when that happens is also a problem. Not only does a happy medium need to be achieved in the fight meta, but also a tuning down in how much an ilvl is worth to make encounters more difficult and balance for longer periods of time.

---

I'd agree with that, yes. To be honest, I always thought they should have made the standard upgrade 5 item levels, rather than 10, especially since stats have exponential curves. That's especially important for VIT, I think, since it gives about 20 HP per point at 60 and gave about 15 per point at 50, if I'm recalling things right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alahra

I'd agree with that, yes. To be honest, I always thought they should have made the standard upgrade 5 item levels, rather than 10, especially since stats have exponential curves. That's especially important for VIT, I think, since it gives about 20 HP per point at 60 and gave about 15 per point at 50, if I'm recalling things right.

---

That would be a good start for sure. Especially considering how invisible that increase is outside of raid balance.

I honestly think that Paladin and Dark Knight should get a small revamp adjusting their abilities to make them more fun to play and not so basic in mechanics. Dark Knight and Paladin should be different from eachother. The only real difference right now is Paladins suck at Magic and AOE but Dark Knights suck at Physical and ST.

Warrior is the highest DPS.
Warrior is good against everything. Which is how tanks should be defensively designed!

Now, do I think Warrior needs a nerf? NO! Why would I want them nerfed? They have really cool mechanics and the class is really interesting and fun to play, it has a few ways it can play and STILL be viable.



Here are some suggestions for Paladin for example:

Flash remade to Hammer of Justice.

Block Passive:
Block now lowers the damage from spells at half the rate.

Hammer of Justice:
Create a hammer that circles around you dealing 40 potency to each target hit. Can spin around and hit the same enemy again increasing enmity gain.
Hammers move with your character, so you can move your character to skillfully hit enemies more times.

Enhanced Hammer of Justice:
Each hit of Hammer of Justice increases block rate by 5% for 5s, stacks up to 5.

Shield Swipe:
Potency increased to 300 and now off the GCD however has a 30 second cool-down.

Sentinel:
Cool-down reduced to 120 seconds.

Tempered Will:
Cool-down reduced to 90 seconds.
Immediately cures Blind and Heavy, while preventing knockback and draw-in effects for 10s.
Additional Effect: Lowers magical damage taken by 30%.

Cover:
Takes all damage intended for another party member for 12s.
Can only be used when the party member is 10y or close

Sheltron
Blocks all attacks that deal less then 20% total life for 3 seconds.
Additional Effect: Partial MP restored upon block (restores 707 MP at lv 60)

Clemency
Restores target's HP. Cure Potency: 1200
Additional Effect: Restores to self 100% of HP restored to target if target is a party member.
Cast cannot be interrupted when used on a party member.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

The only real difference right now is Paladins suck at Magic and AOE but Dark Knights suck at Physical and ST.

---

WTF did I just read ? Since when DRK sucks for single target ? Do you smoke some kind of illegal stuff or what ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

WTF did I just read ? Since when DRK sucks for single target ? Do you smoke some kind of illegal stuff or what ?

---

Dark Knight does significantly less damage then Warrior single target [(850m?) vs (1100m?)]. Its also not as if Dark Knight has a significant advantage in defenses over them either, although it is supposed to be an offensive tank as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karateorangutang

There's another force at work though too. Thats the major increases in damage and survivability that even a 10 ilvl jump affords. That extreme jump in effectivness you receive when that happens is also a problem. Not only does a happy medium need to be achieved in the fight meta, but also a tuning down in how much an ilvl is worth to make encounters more difficult and balanced for longer periods of time.

---

Our characters after 793 days of time from 2.0 to now are not quite four times as powerful as they could possibly be during the relaunch of the game. It's almost an average of 200 days per 'increase' in actual total character power. How much slower/more anemic does it need to be?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Dark Knight does significantly less damage then Warrior single target [(850m?) vs (1100m?)].

---

That's not true. DRK has the highest MT DPS out of the 3 tanks, and as OT they are really close to WAR and can actually compete with them pretty good. When MTing, if they drop Grit they can outDPS a Deliverance WAR if they are lucky with procs. The added DPS of Reprisal + Low Blow resetting CD + more mana from Blood Price while being out of Grit and having also access to Blood Weapon is banana sandwich. I don't know where you take your sources to say such blasphemy, but DRK's DPS is super good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Our characters after 793 days of time from 2.0 to now are not quite four times as powerful as they could possibly be during the relaunch of the game. It's almost an average of 200 days per 'increase' in actual total character power. How much slower/more anemic does it need to be?

---

Does it matter though?

I mean it's the abilities that are tied to the growth of you character, the stats are really just numbers. Numbers that are growing at an exponential rate. I don't know about your but 4 times sounds like a major low ball to me. I don't know the numbers but I remember a time at level 50 when 400 DPS was kicking butt. We are tripling that now.... at ten character levels higher. Even in the time since 3.0 release good DPS are showing numbers that are 200-300 DPS higher than at release. That's a huge amount of numerical growth in a small amount of time. Encounters are balanced around these numbers and with growth that fast it's easy to outgrow them too quickly. Out-gearing an instance in less than 2 months after it's release sounds like the exact opposite of anemic to me.

I dunno too, if I was my character and i had quadrupled my battle strength in a mere 200 days.... deal. That's a completely unrealistic and fantasy like pace in my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AniCelestine

Yeah an old post but really? Not long queue times back in 2.0-2.1? I gained atleast 3 levels crafting and gathering material for crafting per queue wait. I spent the rest of the 2.x patch doing dungeons/roulets as a tank cause of the 30+min queues as dps at the start. Now in 3.0 I get on my monk, select a duty, go on the queue (solo) it's about 20 seconds of waiting, rarely longer than 1min.


/shrug

---

On Excalibur, my DPS queues are around 10-15m, tank queues instant(most of the time) and healers 5-10 minutes.

And I like tanking. I hate the dps tanking meta and the crappy attitude its breeding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadirah

On Excalibur, my DPS queues are around 10-15m, tank queues instant(most of the time) and healers 5-10 minutes.

And I like tanking. I hate the dps tanking meta and the crappy attitude its breeding.

---

DPS tanking has been the meta for a VERRRRY long time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

WTF did I just read ? Since when DRK sucks for single target ? Do you smoke some kind of illegal stuff or what ?

---

Ignore him like everyone else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Dark Knight does significantly less damage then Warrior single target [(850m?) vs (1100m?)]. Its also not as if Dark Knight has a significant advantage in defenses over them either, although it is supposed to be an offensive tank as well.

---

Currently pulling 1230 on Faust in savage as OT and close to 1k on Oppressor on Drk. Analyzing classes in a vacuum is pretty pointless outside of basic capability assessments. The person playing the class is infinitely more important than the class itself.

Also as someone who has played all the tanks I can say that Pally and Drk are almost nothing alike in play style once you reach end game. At level 30 I would agree with you but in top level content I would have to disagree.

As far as the current tanking meta, I very much enjoy it. It raises the skill ceiling for tanking in the hardcore endgame while keeping the skill floor consistent on the casual side. Its fun for me to go back into fights and try and beat the server records on FFlogs and such every week. It adds something to which would otherwise be just another clear and separates those who are willing to go the extra mile for team work from the people who constantly refuse. "That's not my job" I honestly think the the emphasis on job potential over strict role assignment in raid content is one of the things that really sets this MMO apart from others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dante_V

Currently pulling 1230 on Faust in savage as OT and close to 1k on Oppressor on Drk. Analyzing classes in a vacuum is pretty pointless outside of basic capability assessments. The person playing the class is infinitely more important than the class itself.

Also as someone who has played all the tanks I can say that Pally and Drk are almost nothing alike in play style once you reach end game. At level 30 I would agree with you but in top level content I would have to disagree.

As far as the current tanking meta, I very much enjoy it. It raises the skill ceiling for tanking in the hardcore endgame while keeping the skill floor consistent on the casual side. Its fun for me to go back into fights and try and beat the server records on FFlogs and such every week. It adds something to which would otherwise be just another clear and separates those who are willing to go the extra mile for team work from the people who constantly refuse. "That's not my job" I honestly think the the emphasis on job potential over strict role assignment in raid content is one of the things that really sets this MMO apart from others.

---

Well, if we are throwing out numbers I heard a Warrior did 1800 on Faust. Warrors have way better ST damage then Darks do. I don't really remember saying they played exactly the same. However the issue mostly is that tanks were made to be better then others in certain areas of the game, which from a developer and design standpoint is terrible.

Tanks should play differently, however they should not be better or worse in a designed roll when there is one class that is designed to be well in both.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Well, if we are throwing out numbers I heard a Warrior did 1800 on Faust. Warrors have way better ST damage then Darks do.

---

A WAR doing 1800 on Faust is spending all of his Abandon stacks into useless Decimates just to inflate his DPS. Faust isn't a good way of comparing the DPS of different jobs. In real fights, a MT DRK is the highest MT DPS you can have, and if he drops Grit, can outDPS a Deliverance WAR depending on procs. IMO DRK is completely on par with WAR DPS wise. It just lacks OT utility and a little bit of physical mitigation. If you keep doing pointless arguments like that I'll stop trying to convince you. It's not even what the thread is originally about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

A WAR doing 1800 on Faust is spending all of his Abandon stacks into useless Decimates just to inflate his DPS. Faust isn't a good way of comparing the DPS of different jobs. In real fights, a MT DRK is the highest MT DPS you can have, and if he drops Grit, can outDPS a Deliverance WAR depending on procs. IMO DRK is completely on par with WAR DPS wise. It just lacks OT utility and a little bit of physical mitigation. If you keep doing pointless arguments like that I'll stop trying to convince you. It's not even what the thread is originally about.

---

I'm tired but I just awnsered a reply. I didn't start the argument, if you think its pointless talk to the guy who said it. Also, Dark Knight on par with Warrior and outparsing them? Did they patch the game in the last hour?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

In real fights, a MT DRK is the highest MT DPS you can have, and if he drops Grit, can outDPS a Deliverance WAR depending on procs. IMO DRK is completely on par with WAR DPS wise.

---

WAR still has a decent lead (~5%) over DRK single-target OT (or, no-Grit vs. Deliverance) dps. Moreover, mana needs for incoming mitigation needs may hamper DRK OT dps even further (even before swapping to Grit, and of course the large Grit MP cost does it no favors). DRK has a lesser lead over PLD in dummy dps, and fairs about equally when considering mana is more strained (or mana regen isn't done as much as possible in Grit and expenditure done as much as possible out of Grit). Not much has changed in that department...