Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Our FC MCH is pushing 980 on a 4min parse.

I think MCH actually works better than BRD and just takes some more time to learn. (Not saying they'r in a good spot, just probably better off than BRD since they don't have BL proc's etc which would conflict with their GB)

But yea I'm gonna go back being salty in game.

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I'm leveling and learning a MCH for that reason. The thing is the level 51-60 part of BRD are awkwardly slapped onto the job, while MCH are being designed ground up. That difference alone would make MCH in a better position than BRD.

Doesn't hurt much learning since they both shares the same gear less the weapon. Depending on each turn basis at least I have another option.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

I'm leveling and learning a MCH for that reason. The thing is the level 51-60 part of BRD are awkwardly slapped onto the job, while MCH are being designed ground up. That difference alone would make MCH in a better position than BRD.

Doesn't hurt much learning since they both shares the same gear less the weapon. Depending on each turn basis at least I have another option.

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Yep, that's my take on MCH as well.
I do hear they have a pretty bad time 50-60 too and their 30-40 isn't great without their turrets either.
But for us with an already lvled 60 it shouldn't be hard to just fate grind or dungeon with the armory bonus active.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Yep, that's my take on MCH as well.
I do hear they have a pretty bad time 50-60 too and their 30-40 isn't great without their turrets either.
But for us with an already lvled 60 it shouldn't be hard to just fate grind or dungeon with the armory bonus active.

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Yeah, armory bonus makes leveling it easier. I did a few hrs of grinding late last night for MCH, gained 5 levels. Can't comment about 50-60 yet but 30-40 is quite boring. But again, without full set of skills, any job is gonna be boring since you are restricted to press that usual 3 same old buttons.

The pre-50 will probably going to take longer because the late 50 dungeons such as Vault and Library really gives crap ton of XP. I leveled my BRD from 57-60 in a single night and it took me about 4 or 5 Library runs + pure MSQ quest XP for that last 59-60 lap. With bonus it's going to be even faster.

MCH is capable of doing 850+ in 3.3 mins parse. I think BRD should be around the same as well. Although to remain competitive, I feel slight buffs in potency will help in raids for both classes.

Snowball, is your FC's MCH using hive weapon? 980 with DRG?

800-850 is the normal parse for Bards. We're the lowest DPS with MCH in any real fight. Parties aren't even accepting more than one BRD and MCH for their parties. Any other DPS is better than another BRD or MCH to run with.

So basically if I am understanding this right, at 60 it doesn't matter who you pick because both Bard and MCH are the same dmg wise.

I main BRD for my static and during our Ravana EX farm yesterday I had DPS ranging from 550 to 590 without using WM a single time. I don't find that bad at all since I increase the BLM dps and help the healers refill their MP. It's just disappointing that I'm playing it the A Realm Reborn Way, with the same playstyle and skills, just casting Sidewinder sometimes. I was expecting a new song, maybe a skill that you could link with another character like a personal ballad to improve that one char specifically and stuff like that.

While I'm still useful playing it ARR style, it's very disappointing and I feel cheated.

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Originally Posted by JovianTheCool

MCH is capable of doing 850+ in 3.3 mins parse. I think BRD should be around the same as well. Although to remain competitive, I feel slight buffs in potency will help in raids for both classes.

Snowball, is your FC's MCH using hive weapon? 980 with DRG?

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i180, not sure if that was with Law or Hive tho, probably Hive

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

i180, not sure if that was with Law or Hive tho, probably Hive

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It should be Hive. Without Hive you will be IL179 too, and looking at the numbers I am almost certain it is Hive.

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Originally Posted by peekashu

I increase the BLM dps and help the healers refill their MP.

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There are other jobs that can do the same thing, most jobs give some sort of damage buff (Ninja/Dragoon/etc lowering resistences) and can give TP, yet we don't simply say you do less because you have utility. That being said I'm ok with nerfs to damage due to the songs, 100% ok with it, but when you give us a DPS stance, and we cannot even compete with DPS with it, and we're not singing songs, I have issues.

2.0 bard was far better in terms of playstyle and balance, 3.0 is all kinds of fucked from what it appears in both areas.

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Originally Posted by Wishles

800-850 is the normal parse for Bards. We're the lowest DPS with MCH in any real fight. Parties aren't even accepting more than one BRD and MCH for their parties. Any other DPS is better than another BRD or MCH to run with.

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they will soon stop inviting brd/mch , once u are geared and know the encounters , ballad isnt required and another melee dps >>>>>>>> foe req.

is sad that tanks are doing the same dmg than supposed DPS (brd/mch) , + bow/guns are still the lowest on WD....why?

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

they will soon stop inviting brd/mch , once u are geared and know the encounters , ballad isnt required and another melee dps >>>>>>>> foe req.

is sad that tanks are doing the same dmg than supposed DPS (brd/mch) , + bow/guns are still the lowest on WD....why?

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Ask the SE people.

We already foresaw this like months ago when patch 2.4 hits.

Seeing our WAR off tank doing almost the same damage as me in Ravana EX was depressing. I think i'll keep playing this game for my friends but SE has proven incapable of balancing ranged classes like BRD and MCH.

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Originally Posted by Seifa

Seeing our WAR off tank doing almost the same damage as me in Ravana EX was depressing. I think i'll keep playing this game for my friends but SE has proven incapable of balancing ranged classes like BRD and MCH.

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It was the same in FFXI they broke them for like 5 years.

Having tried out WM on and off, I have come to the conclusion the increase in DPS is so small it is seriously not worth it at all. The loss of auto attack hurts the DPS a fair amount when in combination with cast times for pre-existing skills using WM. For a DPS buff it is a very, very bad one. I think they should give us back auto attack while using WM.

Essentially WM serves just one purpose in my opinion and that is to be used if the group in the raid, trial or dungeon wants Mages Ballad or Paeon playing, the WM offsets the DPS debuff from playing those songs (-15% MB/AP, +20% WM = 5% buff) but outside that it is an almost worthless skill especially when take into account if have to play MB/AP your measly 5% increase from using WM same time is ruined by the fact you still have cast times and no auto attacks. Even if don't have to play MB or AP your DPS increase is still so small it doesn't feel worth it. At least that's how it feels to me.

On a side note has anyone noticed on their characters when playing WM it seems you take physically more damage not from being hit more often but the hits themselves hit harder? My health decreases faster playing it despite not being hit more as I still avoid AoE's. That might be just my mind playing tricks on me though. I like the sidewinder skill however, that one at least seems useful though in the long run does not help to lift the class from mid/bottom of the DPS class scale. Like Machinists I think both our classes got the short end of the stick on these class updates/changes.

I'm really really sad with how horrible bard plays right now. Very clunky. Glitchy.

And most off all close to useless. The gap between us and the other jobs is huge. I just saw my friends clear Bismarck with 3 tanks monk drg and smn ...... Ravana too.

I will level machinist for now. Since its a new job I think se will work harder to fix their dp deficiency. :(

I'm very very sad. Really don't know what to do.

I did an Aery dungeon not too long ago on my Smn and the other dps was a Bard. Either WM bard damage is really low or the guy wasn't pulling his weight, because the run took long then when me and a Drg did it.

The amount of purely hopeless crying in this thread has me extremely skeptical of taking any of it at face value.

Anyone care to share rotations?

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Originally Posted by Edellis

The amount of purely hopeless crying in this thread has me extremely skeptical of taking any of it at face value.

Anyone care to share rotations?

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You will find out for yourself soon. The gap between Bard or Machinist and other dps at i180 (currently max) is about 300-350 DPS on a Dummy. This is by people who actually are good players in high end raiding FCs.

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

You will find out for yourself soon. The gap between Bard or Machinist and other dps at i180 (currently max) is about 300-350 DPS on a Dummy. This is by people who actually are good players in high end raiding FCs.

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What, is it supposed to be equal?

Granted 300 is a large number, but with the songs and such, it doesn't seem like Bards parsing universally lower is outside expectation...

You even get a preemptive esuna at level 58, for crying out loud

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Originally Posted by Edellis

What, is it supposed to be equal?

Granted 300 is a large number, but with the songs and such, it doesn't seem like Bards parsing universally lower is outside expectation...

You even get a preemptive esuna at level 58, for crying out loud

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Lol ^ this is the reason we Can't have nice things because of people like you...

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Originally Posted by kirk

Lol ^ this is the reason we Can't have nice things because of people like you...

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All i'm asking for is the reason why you're crying so hard. Am i just supposed to assume you're all endgame raiders with 100% optimal rotations? Yes? I even went back in the thread and saw posted rotations that could use some easy rearranging.

Or, i mean, I can just let you get back to your whining, whatever that's cool. Do you.

Buff WM to 40% or we all quit, here here

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Originally Posted by Edellis

All i'm asking for is the reason why you're crying so hard. Am i just supposed to assume you're all endgame raiders with 100% optimal rotations? Yes? I even went back in the thread and saw posted rotations that could use some easy rearranging.

Or, i mean, I can just let you get back to your whining, whatever that's cool. Do you.

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level 53 archer...yeah, get to 60, then form your own opinion.

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Originally Posted by awesomeuno

level 53 archer...yeah, get to 60, then form your own opinion.

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Let's not play this game, please. I haven't been 53 for days. Haven't been "archer" for shy of a year.

I'd ask for meaningful discussion again free of the snot-nosed, teary bias, but i'm almost positive it'd be a wasted request.

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Originally Posted by peekashu

I main BRD for my static and during our Ravana EX farm yesterday I had DPS ranging from 550 to 590 without using WM a single time. I don't find that bad at all since I increase the BLM dps and help the healers refill their MP. It's just disappointing that I'm playing it the A Realm Reborn Way, with the same playstyle and skills, just casting Sidewinder sometimes. I was expecting a new song, maybe a skill that you could link with another character like a personal ballad to improve that one char specifically and stuff like that.

While I'm still useful playing it ARR style, it's very disappointing and I feel cheated.

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I just did two Ravana EX at ilvl180, i parsed 630 without WM all the time and 578 with WM with a DRG in party....

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Originally Posted by Edellis

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Bard's "rotation" isn't rocket science.

That being said bards have a dps stance, why shouldn't it be equal, we're a DPS class no? Our support abilities (we are not a support, this game has no supports) actually nerf us, which happens to 0 other classes in the game. You realize most jobs have some sort of damage debuff and even tp/resistance buffs are you suggesting they get a nerf as well? We already eat a flat % debuff to our damage from those, why further punish the job on top of the ability usage punishment?

We have a DPS stance to do comparable DPS at the loss of our mobility (core to the job for 90% of levels), even in said stance we're doing worse DPS comparatively than at any point in 2.0. The job gained a "DPS stance" and has taken a step back in terms of damage and gameplay, how does that make sense to you?

This leaves out the unintuitive and clunky design altogether.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Let's not play this game, please. I haven't been 53 for days. Haven't been "archer" for shy of a year.

I'd ask for meaningful discussion again free of the snot-nosed, teary bias, but i'm almost positive it'd be a wasted request.

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Merely stating that you should get to 60 and decide for yourself. If you are 60, grats, you should now be aware of how weak we are compared to every other class, even tanks.

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Originally Posted by Seifa

I just did two Ravana EX at ilvl180, i parsed 630 without WM all the time and 578 with WM with a DRG in party....

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We don't have a DRG in our static, so the DPS would range closer. Seems like that's the DPS to expect during that fight then and it's very disappointing to see WM parsing 10% less. It's just sad that you don't get any improvement with the new skills, except Sidewinder.

Well bards dps stance should never make us equal to other dps, or else we'd just run 3 brds and a mnk like old days. No what we wanted was simply to not be SO far behind if we had our skill ceiling raised via a stance that required "more skill" to use. But as it stands, the skill ceiling raised massively with little to no dps gained, but the gap between us and other dps is enormous now. I actually feel guilty when I see other dps pushing over 1k and im struggling to maintain 7xx dps with my current ilvl.

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Originally Posted by peekashu

It's just sad that you don't get any improvement with the new skills, except Sidewinder.

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Which isn't enough to make up the loss of barrage ( yes I feel like we lost it )

Because Barrage got nerfed by 320potency.

Also people that are stating that bard is weak for dungeons are mistaken.
If you feel the dungeon run is slow it's either your dps, small pulls or the bard playing badly.

Because bard actually got buffed in the aoe department and can do very high and almost sustained aoe dps.
The more crit they have on their gear the more this is going to be noticable.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Also people that are stating that bard is weak for dungeons are mistaken.
If you feel the dungeon run is slow it's either your dps, small pulls or the bard playing badly.

Because bard actually got buffed in the aoe department and can do very high and almost sustained aoe dps.
The more crit they have on their gear the more this is going to be noticable.

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I am really enjoying the changes to bard AOE. almost constant refreshed on RoD :D

Yes the aoe is nice up until you glitch out and can't use any skill for 15s.

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

Yes the aoe is nice up until you glitch out and can't use any skill for 15s.

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Well the bug is going to get fixed. But anything else is up in the air.
So for discussions sake we can ignore the bug and say how the class plays without it which in the aoe department is looking more than fine.

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Originally Posted by Seifa

I just did two Ravana EX at ilvl180, i parsed 630 without WM all the time and 578 with WM with a DRG in party....

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Ilvl 180? I'm still missing like 6 180 pieces and I parse 700 with a dragoon with full WM.

There are like, 8 GCDs TOTAL over the entire fight that you can't pull full DPS. And they're RNG based. That's during the orbs, and it's 4 GCDs or so depending on if they tether to you or not (if they don't tether you can just run the opposite direction which your group is going and keep dpsing)

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Originally Posted by Edellis

All i'm asking for is the reason why you're crying so hard. Am i just supposed to assume you're all endgame raiders with 100% optimal rotations? Yes? I even went back in the thread and saw posted rotations that could use some easy rearranging.

Or, i mean, I can just let you get back to your whining, whatever that's cool. Do you.

Buff WM to 40% or we all quit, here here

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I personally don't have any parses (play on a ps4 *shrugs*) but i can tell you what my rotation is and see your thoughts on that cause i feel like i do more dps but when it comes to anything requring avoiding AoEs. i've noticed a huge drop in overall damage.

currently my rotation with WM up (not 60 yet so don't have sidewinder)
precast RS + HE before the tank pulls, if they have a timer i wait for 4 seconds and then precast them.
i then use SS -> B4B + IE -> WB -> BL -> VB -> Barrage + EA -> HS -> FA and then IJ so that i can clip my dots with about 2 seconds left on IE + RS.

after that depending on the fight i either turn off WM and play 2.X bard style or stay in WM if there isn't too many AoEs to deal with or i can position in such a way that it doesn't hurt.


what i've seen from personal experience though is that if there are a lot of AoEs/the Boss dashes across the Arena WM will lead to massive DPS drops.
I did a vault run with the same party twice once where i had WM up all the time and once where i had it off after the opener and i saw a vastly greater increase in the speed of the run (when it came to bosses anyway) than when i had it up all the time.


Now For the basic reason as to why we're all QQing about this.
Wanderer's minuet was toted as something that would allow us to get to comparable DPS as the other classes. even without that we're seeing classes have a lot more support based utility crop up yet we are still getting punished for it.
now i'm fine with this i've always been fine with it because a good bard could always still do comparable dps as the other classes in spite of this.

the issue comes when we get a DPS stance and yet it barely increases our damage and when you look at all our damage compared to other classes you'll notice that the gap is now so big and we are underperforming so badly that the offtanks are now doing more DPS than we are.

for this reason we have people complaining about both bard and MCH DPS because we are DPS and do less DPS than Tanks. Regardless of whether we are support based classes or not that never stopped us from only lagging behind the melee dps by at most about 40-60 points. it was part of adding to the class to know when to be a support and when to bring out the burst and sadly they basically nerfed the original palystyle to crap because of the Determination changes and the barrage changes.

Raising the bow wpn dmg would alleviate most if not all bitching.

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Originally Posted by Darkthrone

Raising the bow wpn dmg would alleviate most if not all bitching.

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I agree entirely. This way, you could use WM if it was appropriate, and do comparable DPS (Which it isn't - need AA), or play Bard 2.0 style and stay slightly under the Melee as before, but still have freedom of movement.

I don't want to be a black mage. There are black mages for that, and they've got some serious nukes which Bardmage doesn't.

Aoe, however - is wonderful this way. Although Wide Volley seems kind of pointless. Costs more, same potency. Position yourself right, and Quick Knock is fine.

SE completely s**t the bed on bard. It's nothing less than a giant F U.
I've been a bard main since launch. No longer.
Machinist isn't even an alternative option - they're the same pile of crap, just with a different bad smell.

Just adding to the choir of concerned voices here, hoping that the size of the thread will force a response from SE.

Bard is broken. It's not broken in the sense that it doesn't work at all, it's broken in the sense that it's no longer bard. Call it whatever you want, but the core of the class has been shattered. Fixing it will not mean looking at numbers and buffing WM or adding auto-attack back, because it's not a matter of numbers, it's not a matter of how much dps BRDs put out, but a matter of how the class is played.

People that went for bard generally went for it because of its fast paced, mobile style. Now everything which made bard a bard is gone. What we have instead is an afterthought of machinist. Speaking of which, how lazy or uninspired must you be as a designer in order to create the same lv52-60 skills for two separate classes and just name them differently?

Fixing this... shameful display of lack of game design skill would mean understanding the class and what makes it tick. I'm surprised they didn't make it melee.