Please do not make group quest open world areas.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

I can see people asking for better LEVES to take down with friends, since being encounter locked allows SE to make them far more difficult and offer much better rewards. But open world enemies? Feels outdated to me.

In fact, i'm disappointed nobody has been asking for SE to utilize that content to give us more to do. Maybe offer 20 allowences to start a super-difficult levequest with 4-8 of your friends, that offer gear/materia/tomes. But nooooo, we keep crying for silly glorified trash mobs

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Oooh, yes, more challenging leves should be a thing. Combine the idea with the underutilized guildhest mission structure, but set it in the open world. THAT would be the type of content that builds community and gets people working together, not trash mobs.

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Originally Posted by NovaWulfe

The point I was trying to make is that the sonic fanbase cannot decide on what makes a sonic game good. Is it just going really fast? They started making the "boost" games, like colors which lacked the awful Werehog nonsense, and people still complained. Sure, most new sonic games are trash, but what I was getting at is that the community sends mixed messages on what they want improved. Probably not the best comparison, but whatever.

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Ah. Well, just in response to that? The reason Sonic the Hedgehog games can't find a good formula is because the developers themselves simply don't know how to make good games anymore. The sonic community can tell the developers what they want forever, but Sonic Team no longer has the talent to use their own intuition, which is why all their games play like a jumbled mess of shallow concepts. It has nothing to do with "modern" or "classic" in sonic's case, Mario has altered it's formula tons of times and achieved overall success. Sega just can't design solid games anymore.


As for Square? They clearly take input, but have their own professional intuition as developers to know when to listen and when to make the other call. Some people agree, some disagree, but in the end it has worked out very well for this game. Black Mage is a good example of this, Summoner is an extreme example, and in heavensward hopefully it'll be a good one.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

The only thing I can think of is the raid boss birds in Plane of Fire from Everquest. They often would charm the high level that comes to help people out. The charmed high level proceeds to steamroll all the lowbies.

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Oh my god. That is hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

Oooh, yes, more challenging leves should be a thing. Combine the idea with the underutilized guildhest mission structure, but set it in the open world. THAT would be the type of content that builds community and gets people working together, not trash mobs.

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I know, right? In fact when they announced Hunts, i was fully expecting it to function like this. Instead....well, we got what people were asking for. And it's not very fun.

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Originally Posted by Spy

Personally I'm SUPER HAPPY that they're finally bringing actual DANGER to the world. I'm a lover of exploration, and yet, with no threat of anything, it's almost as if they may as well not put monsters there at all...Sneaking around dangerous enemies, hell even dying to some, led to some super fun times with my friends and I XD

Here's an example of what it was like in Mor Dhona back in 1.0

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WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO yes.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

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Well said, I can actually fully agree with you there.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO yes.

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That...doesn't really look fun to me. He got one-shot. I already have to wait 10 years for a tank to join my queue, I have no desire to need a squad just to walk down an area.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

That...doesn't really look fun to me. He got one-shot. I already have to wait 10 years for a tank to join my queue, I have no desire to need a squad just to walk down an area.

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And again, I'll bring up that it was never stated that HW areas are intended to require a group to make it through. SE is making this change based on feedback they've received from their player base. This information is undoubtedly more than the daily whinings of the forum. Their decisions must be carefully considered from a financial standpoint, to please as large of a portion of their paying subscription members as they can. 2.0 was a fairy tale open world, and many of us weren't really impressed by it. Now, they are trying something with a bit more bite to it. If it is positively received, that doesn't mean that open world difficulty will continue to trend upwards. It means that SE listened to what the players wanted and delivered it, and will continue to do so. If not, they will do their best to adjust accordingly.

You know, I actually remember dying to stuff in the environment when I first started 2.0. Now granted, that was almost two years ago, and was due to having an ilevel that barely matched my character level, mostly NQ pieces of gear due to no crafting classes leveled, and sometimes facing off against enemies 5 levels higher than me. I would try and get kills for my hunting log, and enemies like the crocs in coethas and the garlean robots were pretty hairy encounters. I remember having trouble moving around freely in the slyphlands during 2.1 for dailies without having three or four spellcasters blasting away at me. The world HAD a sense of danger, but that was a long time ago. I've been level capped on everything for well over a year, and have trouble remembering when I was lower than ilevel 90.

"Fairy tale open world" isn't exactly how I would describe that initial 2.0 experience. Sure, I'm a destroyer of worlds today, but I think a majority of people are really overstating their power from a 2.0 perspective. So moving into 3.0, the idea of a "difficult" enemy is going to mean different things depending on what item level we consider bringing into it.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

That...doesn't really look fun to me. He got one-shot. I already have to wait 10 years for a tank to join my queue, I have no desire to need a squad just to walk down an area.

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We actually didn't need to go as a group. We just chose to. We wanted to get to the crystal cave together. And going together was part of the adventure :3

Hm, I can't seem to get past this area
<Random player travels by>
"Hey! Want to group up? Since it's supposed to be hard and stuff?"
<Party invite declined>
"Hm....what about you?"
<Party invite declined>
"/fume"

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

You know, I actually remember dying to stuff in the environment when I first started 2.0. Now granted, that was almost two years ago, and was due to having an ilevel that barely matched my character level, mostly NQ pieces of gear due to no crafting classes leveled, and sometimes facing off against enemies 5 levels higher than me. I would try and get kills for my hunting log, and enemies like the crocs in coethas and the garlean robots were pretty hairy encounters. I remember having trouble moving around freely in the slyphlands during 2.1 for dailies without having three or four spellcasters blasting away at me. The world HAD a sense of danger, but that was a long time ago. I've been level capped on everything for well over a year, and have trouble remembering when I was lower than ilevel 90.

"Fairy tale open world" isn't exactly how I would describe that initial 2.0 experience. Sure, I'm a destroyer of worlds today, but I think a majority of people are really overstating their power from a 2.0 perspective. So moving into 3.0, the idea of a "difficult" enemy is going to mean different things depending on what item level we consider bringing into it.

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I experienced the entirety of the MSQ and almost all of my initial adventuring as a conjurer, as well as the first 30 levels of ACN, which possessed a modest physick, so I found myself pretty self sufficient. In recently beginning to level BLM, I can see where you'd say there is still some sense of danger, but I never walked out of an encounter saying "wow, that mob put up a good fight." I either had enough hp to kill it, or I didn't. The suggestion that we will need to bring our all to the battle when trying to fight multiple enemies seems to hint that enemies will be, if not substantially, at least noticeably more difficult. I'm sure that Square is aware they have a delicate line to balance, to make things challenging but not too difficult.

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Originally Posted by TheEnygma

Hm, I can't seem to get past this area
<Random player travels by>
"Hey! Want to group up? Since it's supposed to be hard and stuff?"
<Party invite declined>
"Hm....what about you?"
<Party invite declined>
"/fume"

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Random passer by isn't even going to see your party invite because we are all marked /busy due to RMT - and I'm seriously thinking of moving /say to a tab where I don't see it :(

It's likely that Yoshi over dramatized the strength of the mobs. It will probably only apply to undergeared ppl. If it was tough for geared ppl, it would require a light pt, for normal-undergeared ppl.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

It's likely that Yoshi over dramatized the strength of the mobs. It will probably only apply to undergeared ppl. If it was tough for geared ppl, it would require a light pt, for normal-undergeared ppl.

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If anything its the players not Yoshi that is over dramatizing things, everytime someone even hints at the word "difficult" people go ballistic (check this thread as an example) and automaticly assume that it means insanely saiyan sauce hard.

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Originally Posted by TheEnygma

Hm, I can't seem to get past this area
<Random player travels by>
"Hey! Want to group up? Since it's supposed to be hard and stuff?"
<Party invite declined>
"Hm....what about you?"
<Party invite declined>
"/fume"

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Seeing how quickly people group up at random for hunts, if there is any good reason to go into these difficult areas, I have a hard time believing your scenario will be the most common scenario.

You know, the key reason I'm having issue with anyone asking for challenging mobs is that I really am looking forward to flying. Yeah, weird logic jump, but let me explain.

For the past few months there has been an issue in WoW with the devs removing flying from all future new zones, and the forum arguments that erupt out of it. Those that favor the removal of flying are using the EXACT same arguments that people in this thread have used for more challenging enemies. "More danger, makes the world feel real, puts travel back into the game, forces people to interact and play together". I could copy/paste entire posts from that thread here, or this thread there, and they wouldn't seem the slightest bit out of place. The loss of flying in WoW is one of several reasons I won't be returning to that game, and I'm super hyped that my current favorite mmo is adding flying in less than a month.

I know the ISSUE here is completely different, but I'm still hearing the same argument and logic. I hear people with the same opinions, talking about a different topic. It makes me worried about the future. If anyone here ever causes my Fat Chocobo to lose flight, I hope he falls on you with his fat fluffy rear. That'll be the danger in your open world!:p

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

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I think the difference between that situation and this is that I feel like flying is/should be treated as a reward for conquering the initial challenge of higher level mobs. You're thrown out into the wilderness and forced to deal with the mobs carefully. You go around, do the quests, and get the ability to fly, allowing you to not have to be as cautious. It's essentially a symbol of "conquering" the zone.

All it means is zones won't be boring anymore and Beast tribe camps make sense, they SHOULD require you to work harder, you're dead smack in the middle of an enemy base. New players won't be too hard off, they'll just get the latest tomb gear in each patch and power creep will nerf the mobs naturally as with most content in the game so far.

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Originally Posted by Varilae

Seeing how quickly people group up at random for hunts, if there is any good reason to go into these difficult areas, I have a hard time believing your scenario will be the most common scenario.

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Except hunts give tangible rewards, which is the only reason people will work together. Trash mobs on the world maps give nothing.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

People also do not want to traverse a map ala FFXI where it's a pain in the ass because anything aggroing can kill you. Especially if you have to go through some laborious fight for what is essentially a dead mob that took all of your cooldowns and potions and the loot table for said mobs is garbage so you spend a lot of time getting through a map for little returns.

Don't make it a hassle to traverse your world. It's going to be especially aggravating for arriving at FATES in time.

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Speak for yourself, people actually want difficult things in this game but can't have it because players like yourself cry at the difficulty

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Originally Posted by Barimu

Speak for yourself, people actually want difficult things in this game but can't have it because players like yourself cry at the difficulty

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He used the word "people". You used the word "people". I automatically assume you are both speaking for yourselves. Unless you are both part of some mass collective conscious, in which case, is the Borg queen really as hot as I am made to believe?

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Originally Posted by Barimu

Speak for yourself, people actually want difficult things in this game but can't have it because players like yourself cry at the difficulty

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This. I hope SE sticks with this and stops catering to the whiners.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

This. I hope SE sticks with this and stops catering to the whiners.

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But they are catering to the whiners, that's why they're making the new areas like this.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

But they are catering to the whiners, that's why they're making the new areas like this.

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Best part about this whole thing is the people voting for it are more than likely the same ones complaining about not being able to complete SoF.

The same people not being able to Titan HM in 2.0.

The rose tint is strong in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

But they are catering to the whiners, that's why they're making the new areas like this.

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The hardcore "give me moar challenge" crowd are whiners in my book. The game is fine, the game is fun. RL is a challenge - I play to have fun and relax - not slog my way thru mobs for 30 mins trying to do one quest. This does not seem like a good change to me.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

The rose tint is strong in this thread.

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Oh definitely.

When people bring this issue up they're always like:

"This will make areas exciting because fighting monsters will be a challenge!"

The reality:

"It's so ****ing annoying to have to MGS through this place."

Evidence: FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Orspeth

The hardcore "give me moar challenge" crowd are whiners in my book. The game is fine, the game is fun. RL is a challenge - I play to have fun and relax - not slog my way thru mobs for 30 mins trying to do one quest. This does not seem like a good change to me.

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The "I only have 10 minutes a day to play and I am entitled to being able to relax through every bit of content" mantra has effectively ruined the MMO genre. Keep on chanting it, I'm genuinely curious to see how deep this rabbit hole goes.

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

The "I only have 10 minutes a day to play and I am entitled to being able to relax through every bit of content" mantra has effectively ruined the MMO genre. Keep on chanting it, I'm genuinely curious to see how deep this rabbit hole goes.

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Basically.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

But they are catering to the whiners, that's why they're making the new areas like this.

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Not really, Yoshida said before 2.0 came out on the beta forums before anyone even knew we wouldn't have danger in the open world (it was a REALLY REALLY long post)..that he knows it needs it and will put it back in the first expansion most likely. It was his choice...which I wish he would do and stick with all the time.

Also..keep trolling you guys and this thread will get locked faster then you can refresh it haha.

If you can play 3.0, you've had to have cleared Steps. If you have cleared Steps, even post-nerf, you'll be more than capable of holding your own against mobs, I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Not really, Yoshida said before 2.0 came out on the beta forums before anyone even knew we wouldn't have danger in the open world (it was a REALLY REALLY long post)..that he knows it needs it and will put it back in the first expansion most likely. It was his choice...which I wish he would do and stick with all the time.

Also..keep trolling you guys and this thread will get locked faster then you can refresh it haha.

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It was also his choice to not make the overworld full of hard mobs in the first place. This change is happening due to people like you complaining about it on the forums, so at the very least, it's amusing that you call the people complaining about the change "whiners" when you're a whiner yourself.

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

The "I only have 10 minutes a day to play and I am entitled to being able to relax through every bit of content" mantra has effectively ruined the MMO genre. Keep on chanting it, I'm genuinely curious to see how deep this rabbit hole goes.

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I guess we somehow missed the part where the games catering to the casual crowd are still around...

Least there's actually rabbit hole to point out here other than an empty argument over 13 year old memories.

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Originally Posted by Orspeth

The hardcore "give me moar challenge" crowd are whiners in my book. The game is fine, the game is fun. RL is a challenge - I play to have fun and relax - not slog my way thru mobs for 30 mins trying to do one quest. This does not seem like a good change to me.

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This whole game is Child's Play except the last two Coils.
People already ruined SoF. But don't worry, the mobs will probably get nerfed to the dang ground because people wanna blame their work times and not having friends and bla bla bla
on a MMO. Surprise! It'll actually benefit you folks if you played like a team and talk for once! :D :D :D
Inb4 DF for mobs in open world lmao.

Some of my funnest (and at the time aggrivating) moments in mmos were in Everquest where I would try to reach my group through a zone full of things that could kill me in one round of attacks.

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Originally Posted by Jamez82

Some of my funnest (and at the time aggrivating) moments in mmos were in Everquest where I would try to reach my group through a zone full of things that could kill me in one round of attacks.

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This x1000. We need more then just "trash" we should have entire zones/bosses/high-end loot dedicated to open world zones.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Except hunts give tangible rewards, which is the only reason people will work together. Trash mobs on the world maps give nothing.

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You know what would be awesome, IMO? The difficulty of the open world could mostly come from the beastmen strongholds, and every so often rare treasure pops in these strongholds. Players need to group up and effectively take part in an open world raid on the strongholds. This would give incentive to group up, and it would give the awesome feeling of going out and taking on an enemy base without queing in the duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

This whole game is Child's Play except the last two Coils.
People already ruined SoF. But don't worry, the mobs will probably get nerfed to the dang ground because people wanna blame their work times and not having friends and bla bla bla
on a MMO. Surprise! It'll actually benefit you folks if you played like a team and talk for once! :D :D :D
Inb4 DF for mobs in open world lmao.

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Child's Play? As in, the scary little doll who kills people? Creepy freaking lalafells.

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Originally Posted by NovaWulfe

You know what would be awesome, IMO? The difficulty of the open world could mostly come from the beastmen strongholds, and every so often rare treasure pops in these strongholds. Players need to group up and effectively take part in an open world raid on the strongholds. This would give incentive to group up, and it would give the awesome feeling of going out and taking on an enemy base without queing in the duty finder.

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Except then you run the risk of hordes of people doing nothing but murdering beastmen as they spawn in their camps if the reward is decent. Basically the same zerg you see with hunts and fates.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

People also do not want to traverse a map ala FFXI where it's a pain in the ass because anything aggroing can kill you. Especially if you have to go through some laborious fight for what is essentially a dead mob that took all of your cooldowns and potions and the loot table for said mobs is garbage so you spend a lot of time getting through a map for little returns.

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Please speak for yourself and not for me. I am a "people" and I am looking forward to it. Frankly, imo, its just what the game needs.

Shared Dungeons
These dungeons are shared by all groups who enter them. Most creatures in them are heroic and are not intended to be soloed. They are typically larger than the instanced dungeons shown in the next section.

Wailing Caves 11-18
Blackburrow 12-19
Stormhold 16-30
Fallen Gate 18-30
Crushbone Keep 20-30
Ruins of Varsoon 26-34
Kaladim 30-39
Runnyeye 31-39
Obelisk of Lost Souls 36-48
The Temple of Cazic-Thule 41-49
Permafrost 45-50
Solusek's Eye 45-52
Klak'anon 45-55
The Clefts of Rujark 50-57
The Living Tombs 50-57
The Shimmering Citadel 52-58
The Silent City 54-60
New Tunaria 55-65
Sanctum of the Scaleborn 59-67
The Forsaken City 59-67
Palace of the Awakened 65-71
Mistmoore Catacombs 65-71
Castle Mistmoore 68-74
Karnor's Castle 72-77
Chardok 74-82
Sebilis 76-84
The Hole 80-90
Kael Drakkel 90
Skyshrine: The City of Dracur 90-95
Sleeper's Tomb (Contested) 92-95
High Keep: The Bloodless Incursion (Contested) 95
Brokenskull Bay: The Pirate’s Cove (Contested) 95-98
Ossuary of Malevolence (Contested) 99-100

We need more of this!

I will post something I posted in another topic here, just some food for thought...

What it comes down to though is the fact that there is a great divide between the players who want the destination and those who want the journey. I will say this right now. There is nothing wrong with wanting either, it doesnt make anyone old fashioned or inferior and treat someone as such because of what they desire more is stupidity and arrogance. What I would ask of those that want the destination more though to really evaluate if the idea of socializing for a small portion of content is going to be so crippling to them that it will force them to leave the game? Is it something you can tolerate knowing that there are people who truely want this in the game and they will love having it? It's just fact that right now the game is highly tipped in the destination seekers favor? Is it truely wrong for SE to tip the scales a bit to make it a bit more balanced or is this truely intolerable to you?

I am super happy to hear about a bit of challenge being added to open world content. The only real "open world" content that was suppose to be hard was hunting, odin and behemoth, but those are just huge zergfests. The challenge in hunting them is to be able to see them in the sea of people. Or not to crash the server.

Hopefully, along with hard mobs, they add more difficult open world bosses that have some sort of feature that doesn't allow zergfests. Maybe they can make it so that only the group who pulls it can kill it. After someone kills the boss they should get a 24 hour debuff that doesn't allow them to challenge the boss again. This will stop people from camping the bosses 24/7, keep the kill rare(something to strive for) and make sure it's not a zergfest.

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Originally Posted by Elim

I am super happy to hear about a bit of challenge being added to open world content. The only real "open world" content that was suppose to be hard was hunting, odin and behemoth, but those are just huge zergfests. The challenge in hunting them is to be able to see them in the sea of people. Or not to crash the server.

Hopefully, along with hard mobs, they add more difficult open world bosses that have some sort of feature that doesn't allow zergfests. Maybe they can make it so that only the group who pulls it can kill it. After someone kills the boss they should get a 24 hour debuff that doesn't allow them to challenge the boss again. This will stop people from camping the bosses 24/7, keep the kill rare(something to strive for) and make sure it's not a zergfest.

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How about.. locking it so only a certain amount of players can challenge a boss and make it a hard fight a pug cannot faceroll?

Making them spawn randomly around the map as well, and wander too (this means you can get adds and random mobs in the fight). With unique spawn times like fates.

I actually hate how the current world bosses are made, I dislike zerg content. It should be about traveling around a zone fighting through mobs to get to bosses. Not zerging with hundreds of players, you should get no reward for it. Not even experience.

Things like fates that mindlessly tell you where the action is: needs to go. There should be little to no fates in the expansion. Nothing that tells you where a boss is.