Entitled DPS, please stop being entitled

DPS aren't leash pets and have say in what should happen. It was 2 v 2, in which common ground should have been found. Tanks aren't entitled to dungeon leaders anyways.

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

DPS aren't leash pets and have say in what should happen. It was 2 v 2, in which common ground should have been found. Tanks aren't entitled to dungeon leaders anyways.

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90% of the tank's job actually entails being group leader...>.> Otherwise we shouldn't be the ones shouldering the blame every time healers or DPS fail at their jobs.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/r...s/duckxing.jpg


Follow me, kiddos !

I can't believe you joined a low level dungeon, and expected people not to say that.

Do you know how long the queues can be for those lower level dungeons as a dps? And no, I don't play dps that often. I main healer. But when I queue as a tank, even if I need to get out of there quickly, I am still kind enough to pull everything because it's not all about me.

There are FOUR players in your party, not two and then two more. It's funny you speak of how dps are entitled, yet here you are a person probably level synced...making the people trying to level get out the dungeon quicker instead of getting the experience they joined for in the first place.

Also, this is not your blog. Tumblr is that way >>>>>

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

when I queue as a tank, even if I need to get out of their quickly, I am still kind enough to pull everything because it's not all about me.

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Really, even for a request (more like demand) like "No skipping anything."

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Originally Posted by Kuurei

90% of the tank's job actually entails being group leader...>.> Otherwise we shouldn't be the ones shouldering the blame every time healers or DPS fail at their jobs.

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Why would it be a tanks fault if the healer didn't heal, or the DPS sucks? That makes no sense?

Tanks control the pace of the instance, not the entire instance itself.

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

Why would it be a tanks fault if the healer didn't heal, or the DPS sucks? That makes no sense?

Tanks control the pace of the instance, not the entire instance itself.

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It isn't.. But the first step of a wipe = dead tank.
So without closer inspection of the underlying causes, you can't tell whose fault it was.. blaming tank is just the conclusion many noobs reach when they're unable to comprehend what just happened.

In many cases, that's the exact mind set upon a wipe "What just happened?"
"Oh, tank is dead, must be a noob tank"

Because most DPS tunnel vision and rarely ever watch the healer's heal output.

I play all roles, but currently main WHM. As PLD, I detested when others pulled, because I believe tanks do often lead the party, and pulling is part of that. However, I do not believe tanks are the ones who set that pace -- that is the healer. Whenever I tank, I know for certain that if I go above the healer's capacity to heal, we will wipe and it will be my fault. Therefore, while I lead by pulling, the healer sets the actual pace of how quickly and how much I can pull. I think people are confused when they say tanks set the pace -- and as many have said, even if the tank and healer duo think speed runs are okay, if the dps isn't up to it, that will be a wipe as well -- teamwork, is what is needed more // and less confrontational attitudes (thank goodness I never pug dungeons at all...).

lol i main dps... and i'd never tell a tank what to do in a dungeon. and when i run the dungeons as tank i definitely run the dungeon how i want to. I remember when i was trying to finish my pld and people were trying to speed run dungeons for relic drop. AV i think it was and dps were killing the egg thingies and give a ton of exp, i asked them nicely not too... they kept doing it. and i left.... see what's faster.. do it my way or wait for another tank.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

There are FOUR players in your party, not two and then two more.

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Maybe you should tell that to the BRD that threatened to facepull and his WHM friend that threatened to not heal.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

here you are a person probably level synced...making the people trying to level get out the dungeon quicker instead of getting the experience they joined for in the first place.

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If you read through the post, the OP would have been perfectly willing to pull additional mobs if asked nicely.

Honestly, I feel like this is a case of two sets of two people that just shouldn't have run a dungeon together at all since nobody was willing to compromise in any way. The tone was rude from the onset which, wrong or no, prompted a rude response from the OP and it snowballed from there. Not everyone is gonna get along. When I run into that, I do everything I can to get through the dungeon or I eat the 30 minute penalty. Either way, when it's all said and done I just dust myself off and steel myself for the queue again, hoping that I never see those people again.

Honestly if I'd just entered a dungeon and gotten a line like that, I think I'd just do a {I don't speak any English.} and just roll the rest of the dungeon like the chat log does not exist.

A defensive response, while understandable, isn't ever going to help with someone like that.

While I understand your frustration with DPS, it is not really a fair complaint as plenty of tanks and healers have issues too.

DPS: Biggest issues they have is that they tend to sometimes be impatient and fail more often at raid/dungeon awareness than tanks and healers do.

Healers: Biggest issues is that because they are healing they tend to be overly critical of small mistakes. Also a fair amount of healers take it upon themselves to criticize dps performance when their own healing performance is not great either.

Tanks: Biggest issue is that they feel like the boss. While this makes sense since it is the tanks who pull and tend to lead the group, some tanks don't know how to communicate well and then complain when people are "not listening".

To the op:

The dungeon is not just about *you* but also about everyone else. Just because you play the tanking role does not mean that you get to determine everything. Had you communicated with the dps better and explained nicely why you didn't want to run the optional content, maybe you could have avoided all the drama. Instead it seems you probably did what I described as the general problem that tanks have.

Uh... is it me or people are cherry picking the OP's post to argue against it just for the sake of arguing? I also feel like some people are holding a grudge against tanks. Adire, you did what you could. You didn't fight the DPS when he said "OMG NOT SKIPPING SH*T LMAO". You pulled a lot of stuff. You didn't let him die, since based on your post, even if he pulled extra monsters, you tanked them (You did your job). You asked them to AoE, the request was rejected. Heck, the OP wasn't even reasonable with his thread, I don't know why people were so hostile with their responses... there're ways to give an opinion. He had an entitled DPS in his group. Clearly, that attitude is not acceptable even if you play either healer or tank as well. I would re-name the thread to "entitled players, stop being entitled".

However, I don't feel the OP was being entitled. He was not forcing the DPS to run the way he wanted. He even said "If he asked nicely, he was going to do it". And I agree completely with that. Why would you have to ACCEPT that kind of attitude? no one should. What? because it's your job? Flash news, it's a videogame, not a paid job where you have to accept when people yell at you. Now, it's true that tanks are the "leaders", even if you like it or not. They DO control the pace of the fight. They have all the tools for that. They know how many monsters he/she can tank. They administrate their cds/MP/TP, not you. They know when it's enough. For example, if they want to pull 7 monsters, it's because they know how to control that amount of monsters. If you pull more, there's a risk that he either run out of cds or either MP/TP, finding himself/herself not being able to establish hate on these.

i like to talk to everyone in the group to see how where going to tackle this dungeon...what i don't like is toxic players right off bat in the dungeon as a tank what do you think im going to do after being demanded after spewing bs? can u guess what im going do after? im mostly quiet when im tanking and 90% of time i do what the group wants, like really is so hard to treat a fellow player with some common decently and respect and not belittle the tank from the start?

seriously, people simply arguing about: tank must do what the other want! pull what they want! how they want! and stuff like this is craps.... i will be blunt a good tank will know what he can or cannot do. the tank role ask for more than what other role ask.

as tank you must:
- understand the limit of your group, for this you must have a good understanding of the strong side and weakness of each class.
it recquire to immediatly understand how well the group is equiped, if the group know well them class, if they know the dungeon,.... if they are a bit lacking in terms of equipement you will need to watch what you pull and how you do it. if they don't know, take time to explain the boss or put symbol for indicate the order the monster must be killed. an important point that a looooot of tank ignore and simply don't give a.... it's about the composition of the group, if you have a melee in the group, know how turn the monster and how place them for make them jobs easier.

- you must pay attention of what do the group, it means, how the healer use him mana, how the dps use them skill for decide the pace of the pulling.
if the healer don't pay attention to him mana you must be carefull, if the dps are using aoe on group of 2 monster, you either talk with them or pull more.... simply because it's stupid to let them waste ressource and do crappy dps.

- you must know your own role and limit. it means know what it means to be tank... what you can or cannot endure, since the role of a tank is not simply pull and keep the hate, but more survive while holding the aggro. it recquire too, to know the dungeon, the monster with them gimmick, what must be avoid, where you have patrol, where use your CD, your own cycle.

all of that for said, tank have a hell of jobs on them hand, people say that they mustn't be the leader....fine, you simply want to turn the tank into a pet that are there for keep the aggro of the monster, it's kinda rude. take the role of leader from the tank and they are not different than titan-egi.

finally, if you want to decide what will be killed in the dungeon ask, but it don't means the tank will submit and do what you want too... because it's him right to refuse. oh by the way, when you do a df, a clean sweep is not mandatory, when you df, the goal is to do the dungeon, not kill everything inside.

ps: if you get with bad tank, most of the time, is maybe because the good tank are tired to be treated like a pet, when the good tank take a lot of pride into mastering the class and know everything they need to know. if the tank class are the less represented is not without reason... not everyone is means to be tank. keep that in mind.

pss: a lot of people spiting on tank here, must have little to no knowledge of what it means to be tank and maybe they need to try to be tank for more than 10-20 dungeon.... you will fast understand the point to leave the lead to the tank. it can be painfull to be strip of this as tank... and make the experience the most horrible.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

pss: a lot of people spiting on tank here, must have little to no knowledge of what it means to be tank and maybe they need to try to be tank for more than 10-20 dungeon.... you will fast understand the point to leave the lead to the tank. it can be painfull to be strip of this as tank... and make the experience the most horrible.

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I tanked for a few years in WoW on progressive content and have done the same with healing and dps. I know what I am talking about when I say:

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Originally Posted by Rendecrow

While I understand your frustration with DPS, it is not really a fair complaint as plenty of tanks and healers have issues too.

DPS: Biggest issues they have is that they tend to sometimes be impatient and fail more often at raid/dungeon awareness than tanks and healers do.

Healers: Biggest issues is that because they are healing they tend to be overly critical of small mistakes. Also a fair amount of healers take it upon themselves to criticize dps performance when their own healing performance is not great either.

Tanks: Biggest issue is that they feel like the boss. While this makes sense since it is the tanks who pull and tend to lead the group, some tanks don't know how to communicate well and then complain when people are "not listening".

To the op:

The dungeon is not just about *you* but also about everyone else. Just because you play the tanking role does not mean that you get to determine everything. Had you communicated with the dps better and explained nicely why you didn't want to run the optional content, maybe you could have avoided all the drama. Instead it seems you probably did what I described as the general problem that tanks have.

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Don't just assume that because Im saying that some tanks need to relax a bit, that I don't now what I am talking about.

WoW was way easier on tanking than what we have here. no stuff to spam for retake the aggros or stuff like this. anyway, that not the trouble, i wasn't aiming anyone in particular, but i'm clear, in DF tank is the lead.... that must'nt be changed or seriously the number of tank will drop more and more. because you will have no fun at all at play tank. they have oversimplified cycle of skill, without this control over the situation we are not different than a pet and will make the experience simply unbearable.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

DF tank is the lead.... that must'nt be changed.

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No worries it wont be changed because it's not the reality. Tank is as much the lead as the healer or DPS, team effort in team based gameplay I know it's hard when you feel entitled because of your overall required presence.

Shame that DF itself is the cause of most of this attitude being so prevalent. Used to be if you were a knob in party content you would wind up blackballed by people who actually want to play the game, tank or not you would have a hard time worming your way into group content because you actually had to live with the social repurcussions of being a jerk.

A tank pulls period, don't come with some BS excuse that a dps can pull first if he wants/add extra mobs to a pull...I would had like dps to face pull on FCOB, and get destroyed by trash/dreds in secs.....or let dps face pull first room of aurun vale....see how that goes.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

No worries it wont be changed because it's not the reality. Tank is as much the lead as the healer or DPS, team effort in team based gameplay I know it's hard when you feel entitled because of your overall required presence.

Shame that DF itself is the cause of most of this attitude being so prevalent. Used to be if you were a knob in party content you would wind up blackballed by people who actually want to play the game, tank or not you would have a hard time worming your way into group content because you actually had to live with the social repurcussions of being a jerk.

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You do realize that team based gameplay doesn't mean there aren't leaders right? They're are always captains and coaches making decisions.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

snips

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i will be blunt, try to do a dungeon where the lead is not the tank, please try and be the tank!
it's painfull, you are simply repeat your oversimplified cycle and can't even decide on what you gonna hit first, since someone point you what you must pull or stuff like this.

indeed dungeon are teamwork, but each role have a jobs.... the dps have more complexe cycle and tool for burn down the monster as fast as possible while avoiding useless damage
healer must heal the tank and make sure the team survive while be carefull for themself.
the tank is the lead into this, he will be the one to decide if he can or cannot pull more or less. the one to know when he can or must use a Cooldown that will lessen the burden on the healer.

we can argue all the day about this, but even in a team you need a leader, why? because if you don't have a leader everyone will go wherever they want while doing whatever they want. you need someone to point where the team must focus them attention and effort. tank are the one that must do it, because they can survive what they gonna pull, not the dps nor the healer.... especially since we have only one provoke with a huge cd.... the game it's make around this! you can try to make the tank look like the bad guys.

but that the reality of the game in dungeon. now that don't means that tank have all right, that a given, but that don't mean that the other have more right than the tank. it's true the other can ask the tank to do something, but it's too the right of the tank to refuse. impose your will to the tank is more rude than a tank ignoring the will of the group. you talk of jerk and stuff.... me i'm talking about respect. that quite different.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

WoW was way easier on tanking than what we have here. no stuff to spam for retake the aggros or stuff like this. anyway, that not the trouble, i wasn't aiming anyone in particular, but i'm clear, in DF tank is the lead.... that must'nt be changed or seriously the number of tank will drop more and more. because you will have no fun at all at play tank. they have oversimplified cycle of skill, without this control over the situation we are not different than a pet and will make the experience simply unbearable.

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While the tank is in charge of pulling and holding aggro that doesn't make them the boss. Their skill level and role are just the most pronounced when setting the pace of the dungeon/content. The tank could want to skip every trash pack skip-able, but if the rest of the group wants to down the things for exp, whelp the tank is going to have fun tanking those trash packs.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

The tank could want to skip every trash pack skip-able, but if the rest of the group wants to down the things for exp, whelp the tank is going to have fun tanking those trash packs.

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tank are not the slave of the group.... like i have said, even if the 3 other want, if the tank don't want he is not forced to it. it's not a democracy... it's fair, everyone is there for have fun, if the tank don't want to pull everything.... he is not forced to go with the will of the group. if you want to make clean sweep in dungeon use PF!

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

tank are not the slave of the group.... like i have said, even if the 3 other want, if the tank don't want he is not forced to it. it's not a democracy... it's fair, everyone is there for have fun, if the tank don't want to pull everything.... he is not forced to go with the will of the group. if you want to make clean sweep in dungeon use PF!

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The group isn't the tank's slave harem. If the other 3 in the party want to do something, the tank has three choices; to do it, leave or be kicked. The party group is most certainly a democracy. If the tank doesn't want to tank the trash the rest of the group wants to fight then he is free to leave.

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Originally Posted by Kuurei

90% of the tank's job actually entails being group leader...>.> Otherwise we shouldn't be the ones shouldering the blame every time healers or DPS fail at their jobs.

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Only idiots force blame purely on another. Give tips and reasoning and you work together to solve problems. Tanks that get shouldered the blame for a groups failings aren't alone in their burden. Healers and DPS get blamed all the time.

That's the blame game that's the problem, not an excuse to carry the 'leader' delusion.

You're "on point" not "leader". You're the first monkey forward in a group of four monkeys all doing their jobs. It's wrong for any of the monkeys to fling their dung around.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

if you want to make clean sweep in dungeon use PF!

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If you want to set your own rules I suggest you take your own advice. In the duty finder your at the mercy of the majority, if you don't like it feel free to leave and save everyone the hassle of cattering to your special snowflake syndrom.

How I feel reading this thread right now:

http://puu.sh/hz7J0/0013338459.gif

Tanks are not the boss of anyone. It's a mmo, it's played by a community, if you think you are entitled to rule the party you're mistaken. The tank job is to keep the hate of the mobs on him, the easiest way to do that is to get initial enmity, that why you pull them, it don't mean you can decide by yourself how the run will go.
In dungeon tank are not as essential as they think they are. Did with friends most of the latest dungeon with 4dps/4heal/4tank out of boredom, and had no problem getting a clear, every dungeon could pretty much be done with a 4 monkey team anyway.
If you do end game content you understand really fast that tank are not more valuable than any other member of the team, everyone as to get their game together to get a clear, if you play alone or even fight against your own team you're getting nowhere

Sometimes the attitude of the tanks in this game is really sad. (note that it's not only tank, they are everywhere) Once I got Shiva trial on duty as a smn, trying to get my egi on manual I accidently send it on the boss, proceed to explain and apologize asap. Tanks get in an corner and said you pull, you tank. I actually agree with that but maybe mistake happen, and if someone take the time to explain and say he's sorry it's probably really a mistake. Answer of the tank: "I don't care, I'm the tank I get to decide anyway". in the meantime 4 people die get raised and he decide that his ego his satisfied and pull. I tell him it wasn't very mature of him and once again he reply with "yeah but you're just a dps, I'm the tank, what are you gonna do about it?" and here's happened a kinda cool reality check, 4 dps that didn't know each other before proceeded to sheathe their weapon and started cheer on the tank, that suddenly got all quiet, 10min later and dps wondering if Shiva hard had an enrage before her astral party finally wipe and disband. Sure it wasn't very mature either, but it proved that you can't treat people whatever you want just because you're tank. (I tagged again afterward, got Shiva again with the same tank, we talked like human being before the start instead of acting like kids and got a fast clear)

In OP's specific case. Yeah the dps could've been more polite asking a full run, but he could've explained it to him. As him and his friend wanted it quick I'll assume he were more prompt to react with hostility rather than work a way to satistfy everyone.
It was selfish and not very mature on both part. In that case his friend needed a clear, the other 2 wanted the exp, doing the full run was longer but satisfied both side. But rather than sort it out at the start it did go. dps: Xp k bye -> screw this I'm the boss, I am the hero, I am the tank you'll do what I want -> tank proceed to run through selfishly -> dps aggro everything for his gain selfishly -> everyone act like kid and refuse to work together -> party disband -> new "people don't do it like I want to" thread on the forum.
Maybe one side had to show a bit of maturity and this could've been avoided.

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Uh... is it me or people are cherry picking the OP's post to argue against it just for the sake of arguing?

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Congratulations; you've discovered the VERY PURPOSE of these forums.

Let me explain the difference between LEADER and BOSS:

https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shri...N2I4ZGU2ZQ.jpg

Thanks for your time.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Congratulations; you've discovered the VERY PURPOSE of these forums.

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Most of the people that are raging against OP, looks like they had a bad experience with tanks, which doesn't mean all the tanks are like that. And as far as I can see, the sole idea of having a leader, freak people out and they spit out poison from every hole of their bodies. Taking things out of context or, as I said, cherry picking what they want to read just to argue against it. It's sad, because that leads to an unhealthy discussion and it "drains" OP's energy trying to clarify what he already said over and over.

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Originally Posted by Sigiria

Tanks are not the boss of anyone.

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No, see, I don't think you understand.

http://i.imgur.com/M2q8eNS.png

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

tank are not the slave of the group.... like i have said, even if the 3 other want, if the tank don't want he is not forced to it. it's not a democracy... it's fair, everyone is there for have fun, if the tank don't want to pull everything.... he is not forced to go with the will of the group. if you want to make clean sweep in dungeon use PF!

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The tank is not the slave of the group? But the way you phrase it, it seems to me that you are suggesting that the group is the slave of the tank... Why should three people have to follow what one person wants? Pretty sure the one person should follow the three.

EDIT: That being said I fully understand that groups need a leader, but just because you are the tank does not make you the default leader. If you are in a 4 man party and the other 3 people don't want you to be leader, then you are not the leader even if you are the tank.

Oh look, tanks coming together to defend their prissiness and entitlement. How unexciting and predictable.

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Originally Posted by Rendecrow

The tank is not the slave of the group? But the way you phrase it, it seems to me that you are suggesting that the group is the slave of the tank... Why should three people have to follow what one person wants? Pretty sure the one person should follow the three.

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You guys are all missing the point here..
Nobody HAS TO FOLLOW ANYBODY. If you don't like it and you're in the majority, KICK the oddball.
If you're in the minority, don't cry when you get kicked, OR leave before it comes to that.

It's just the state of things that healers and tanks have an advantage in this regard because they can requeue much quicker than dps, but is anyone seriously going to argue about the ethics of that?


P.S. Have you noticed lately that Healers are the ones that actually get instaqueued? Not the tanks? Just some food for thought if you thought you had no leverage against a dicky tank, he has to wait in DF too, albeit only a few minutes.

This is why I hate duty finder and never use it (except for WoD weekly since you have to unless full alliance) - entitled EVERY JOB. Not just tanks, but healers and even dps. I play all roles @50, but I never touch the DF except to help friends if we can't get a full FC group. There will always be that one person who thinks they are a special snowflake...newsflash -- you're not. Almost everyone I know has a tank job @50, even if it isn't their main - same goes for heals and dps. I remember a princess bard in FFXI who continuously was toxic to the Shiva server -- after about 2-3 weeks of it, we'd see him sitting in Jeuno shouting for an xp party because no one wanted him / eventually he left the server or made a new character. If only this was still the case...yet, there is no accountability for entitled attitudes and probably never will be in FF14.

To every DPS saying we are entitled, demanding, bossy, dictator assholes...Please level a tank, enjoy how shitty a job it is to make sure everything goes right and come back here to tell me we are wrong to dictate the flow.

If not, enjoy those queues.

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Originally Posted by PULSeTHIRTeeN

To every DPS saying we are entitled, demanding, bossy, dictator assholes...Please level a tank, enjoy how shitty a job it is to make sure everything goes right and come back here to tell me we are wrong to dictate the flow.

If not, enjoy those queues.

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It's not hard

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Originally Posted by PULSeTHIRTeeN

To every DPS saying we are entitled, demanding, bossy, dictator assholes...Please level a tank, enjoy how shitty a job it is to make sure everything goes right and come back here to tell me we are wrong to dictate the flow.

If not, enjoy those queues.

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Healer leveled on this character, tank leveled fully on another.

Tanking is not hard. The first time tanking something ever? Very hard. The fifth time? Mind-numbingly easy.

Tanks may have a high skill floor, but it's a few thousand feet below a damage dealer's skill cap.

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Originally Posted by Rendecrow

EDIT: That being said I fully understand that groups need a leader, but just because you are the tank does not make you the default leader. If you are in a 4 man party and the other 3 people don't want you to be leader, then you are not the leader even if you are the tank.

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Actually it does, because that's what "default" means.

Absolutely if the tank is new or if someone else is in a better position to lead a group (maybe they know the dungeon better, maybe they can explain things better, who knows) then sure they should lead the group. But in any random DF group, the tank is the default leader, and 999/1000 groups will just expect the tank to know how the dungeon works. Tanks know this and so they have to go in with the mindset that they're in charge because it's going to be expected that they be in charge.

That all being said, sometimes the tank is new. Sometimes the tank isn't super familiar with a dungeon. Generally when this happens, the tank will say so and someone will usually speak up and help explain things.

In the OP's example though, the dps just barked out a demand right off the bat like it was macroed or something. This is not the same as trying to lead a group. This is trying to commandeer a group. And it's trying to do so without first knowing anything about how that group was going to perform in the first place. Now I'd imagine that if instead the line had been "I need exp, could we please pull the universe?" that would've been fine. It's impossible to know for sure because it didn't happen that way.

I've been playing MMOs since they were text-based and called MUDs (nearly 20 years). I've played every role. And I feel confident in saying that the tank is EXPECTED to lead the group. Especially a random group.

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Originally Posted by PULSeTHIRTeeN

To every DPS saying we are entitled, demanding, bossy, dictator assholes...Please level a tank.

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Allready did long before you did probably. No issues here, never had problems with dictator assholes because I left if I ever met them.