Can you please Ease Up on Atma now?

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

just put such people on ignore, because their opinion belies a vacuous space.

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All this did for me was remind me was remind me in the future that I was mad at someone I don't remember over something that I got over and forgot about.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

There is nothing wrong with an easy but time consuming grind. You still need to put in effort and show dedication in order to succeed.
However if only raw RNG decides whether you get your reward or not, while making dude A do 3x the amount of work dude B did, because dude B got lucky, that's crappy and unfair design and shouldn't exist in games.
At least not w/o a safety net to keep the amount of effort similar for everybody.

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My point exactly; I'm just baffled at people saying it's "hard work" to do hundreds of low-level FATEs. Had they told us to do, say, 30 FATEs in 12 zones (so 12×30), I don't think many would have issues with it - would still be time-consuming, would still not be hard, would still contribute to open world life, could have an actual representative progress bar (figuratively).

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Originally Posted by WellGramarye

That's how luck works. Just bare with it, and hopefully they'll increase the rate some. Now I need to get back to doing my other 8 (soon to be 9 with Nin..) Relics.

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Luck isn't the complaint.
Time isn't the complaint.

The complaint is the content isn't fun.
The complaint is the content isn't challenging.

Increasing the drop rate doesn't make it fun.
Increasing the drop rate doesn't make it more or less challenging.

What we need is for our Atma Weapons to be FUN and Challenging to accomplish. Even if its 15 to 30 hours of stuff to do. As long as its 15 to 30 hours of fun content. Bring it on.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Luck isn't the complaint.
Time isn't the complaint.

The complaint is the content isn't fun.
The complaint is the content isn't challenging.

Increasing the drop rate doesn't make it fun.
Increasing the drop rate doesn't make it more or less challenging.

What we need is for our Atma Weapons to be FUN and Challenging to accomplish. Even if its 15 to 30 hours of stuff to do. As long as its 15 to 30 hours of fun content. Bring it on.

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Fun is subjective. Challenging is subjective.

Some people find Coil fun. Some people find Coil Challenging. Others don't.

Hanging out with friend's doing Fates, while helping them level because they aren't level capped, and getting rewarded is fun to ME.

Doing a Raid weekly for gear that's marginally or not at all better than other options, while dealing with rage quit tendency people, and super stressful situations on the other hand is NOT fun for ME.

Your mileage may vary. More people need to look at exactly why they are doing certain things, and playing the game.

Atma is the easiest and fastest part of the quest. It only gets worse later. I'd rather they ease up on completing the books, that was insanely tedious and boring.

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Originally Posted by Akira_Tenshi

Atma is the easiest and fastest part of the quest. It only gets worse later. I'd rather they ease up on completing the books, that was insanely tedious and boring.

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The only part of the books that would need to be changed is the FATE camping for some of them. That's also reliant on RNG and FATE grinding with hopes your FATE pops so you can move on.

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Originally Posted by WellGramarye

Fun is subjective. Challenging is subjective.

Some people find Coil fun. Some people find Coil Challenging. Others don't.

Your mileage may vary. More people need to look at exactly why they are doing certain things, and playing the game.

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This, pretty much. I didn't mind the gating through HM primals for the relic questline since the pacing made sense and I like doing stuff on DF. I don't like spamming FATEs and wondering what else I could be doing if I weren't trying to upgrade my relic.

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Originally Posted by Akira_Tenshi

Atma is the easiest and fastest part of the quest. It only gets worse later. I'd rather they ease up on completing the books, that was insanely tedious and boring.

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Only thing that sucks is the dumb waiting for FATE X.

The rest is fine.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Only thing that sucks is the dumb waiting for FATE X.

The rest is fine.

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This is pretty much the only thing slowing me down at the moment. If I didn't have to sit and wait for certain fates to spawn I'd have finished Animus within a few days.

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Originally Posted by Akira_Tenshi

Atma is the easiest and fastest part of the quest. It only gets worse later. I'd rather they ease up on completing the books, that was insanely tedious and boring.

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NOPE

you can do 9 books way faster if your rng luck is foreveralone levels of bad.

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Originally Posted by WellGramarye

This is pretty much the only thing slowing me down at the moment. If I didn't have to sit and wait for certain fates to spawn I'd have finished Animus within a few days.

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Do fates to spawn fates!

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

Do fates to spawn fates!

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This won't work if people are just camping the fate. You'll be too scared to move from your spot when the fate you need can be completed in a mere seconds and is being camped by 5+ players.

As for Atma grinding, I'm almost done with my 3rd Atma weapon. My opinions being that Atma is definitely the worst part, with the Animus books being a close second just because of the fate waiting. Novus is pretty casual besides the gil investment, but Nexus seems by far the most lenient and fastest (if you don't grind it out).

I always see people talk about their Animus or their Novus and how it's such a grind upgrading it to the next level. I feel like they chose their weapon wrongly if they feel that way. It's always going to feel like a grind if you grind it out.. There'll be alternative weapons if you can't stand it.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

This won't work if people are just camping the fate. You'll be too scared to move from your spot when the fate you need can be completed in a mere seconds and is being camped by 5+ players.

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that is the only valid concern.

if only everyone could adopt the whole working together philosophy..

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

Do fates to spawn fates!

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No.
I rather tab out and watch a movie or craft.
I've done more than enough of the darn things during my Atma grind. :<

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

thats an odd way of spelling A***holes.

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You can call it whatever you want, but when the grind is as long as this one, you want to do whatever you can to maximize your chances. At the end of the day, no one cares (maybe outside of your friends) if you can obtain your Atma or not. Lets not try and make this a test of morals.

Everyone complains that it's such a long and tedious grind that could seemingly screw you over and never give you an Atma, but people won't go out of their way to tag as many FATEs as they can? Come on. If FATEs aren't completed it's not your problem, as you still have the same Atma chances (that should be your focus).

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Originally Posted by WellGramarye

Hanging out with friend's doing Fates, while helping them level because they aren't level capped, and getting rewarded is fun to ME.

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"I like Atma farming under very specific situations" is what you're telling us.

Can you remake your sentence and say "Hanging out alone doing Fates, while nobody is here, and getting nothing for hours is fun to ME."?
This is what happen for most people most of the time. Not everyone have the luxury of being able to do Atma farming the way you said you were doing it. You're an exception.

My comment that the process is suppose to be arduous had the whole, entire process in mind - from start to finish, from Zenith to Nexus. It is a casual deal because you don't need a ton of people to obtain your Atmas - just you and your friendly chocobo. In addition, the stage where you fight low level monsters - I truly believe Yoshi had us do that so the newer players were not abandoned by us higher level players - think of it as community service. I did not enjoy that stage but at least the newbie players appreciated it.

In addition, if you guys feel you are on your lonesome when doing Fates, then gather people, gather some folks from your FC, your LS, schedule Fate events, and do them together for shiz and gigglez. If you cannot find those people, get a nice movie going on your TV set or computer and have at it.

Someone comment that Nexus phase is easy - Atma farming is easy too, just time consuming. Think of this first stage as your Red Badge of Courage. Get through this poop and you are virtually home free and you will feel damn good about it. As others have mentioned, I am sure, is tag those Fates and move on to tag the next Fate and on and on and on. If you get sick of one zone, move to the next zone you need your Atma from and rinse/repeat. You guys that are stuck at that stage can do it and you will do it. I know you can.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

"I like Atma farming under very specific situations" is what you're telling us.

Can you remake your sentence and say "Hanging out alone doing Fates, while nobody is here, and getting nothing for hours is fun to ME."?
This is what happen for most people most of the time. Not everyone have the luxury of being able to do Atma farming the way you said you were doing it. You're an exception.

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You took this way out of context, but you know what; fine you are right. I didn't find Atma farming solo fun. So you guess what I did? I stopped doing it and did other things I thought was fun, until there was a way for me to have fun farming Atma, which is what I said before; if you were so inclined to read it.

That's the point I'm trying to get across. If its not fun, why do it? Either find a way that makes it fun, or do something else. If you are so hard up to be geared, then there are 2-3 alternate ways to get nearly the same gear. As I said before, fun is SUBJECTIVE. I know a few people who don't mind just mindlessly doing Fates all day for their Atma because its a relaxing no stress way to progress.

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

Do fates to spawn fates!

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While in theory this is a great idea, especially if you are carrying a back up Zenith, the flaw is most times people will finish out the fate you are waiting for if it was a particular busy day before you can get back. I had this happen awhile ago with the Taken fate in South Thanlan. I was clearing fates when the fate spawned. Not even 2 mins into the fate it ended because there were several WHM there spamming Holy working on Atma/Books. Its usually best to hop zones to see whats up then pick one and wait, as to make sure no more time than is needed is wasted.


I'd also like to point out that people seem to not have any concept of the claim system of this game. If you hit a mob and someone else kills it, you both get credit, so there is no reason if someone comes up and attacks your mob while doing books to nuke it into oblivion as they are probably trying to get credit as well. Let them kill it and you both benefit, especially since a lot of book mobs only have 3-4 spawns. There is no need to "fight" over them.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

Some people win the lottery too, or become movie stars. If someone gets all 12 that easy then they probably deserve it because their karma must be like that of the Buddha. You're acting like 50% of the people have it that easy, when in actuality, it's more like .00000000000005%. In general when you are faced with a 5% chance 12 times, the majority of people are going to average pretty close to 5%. Use this and see how many time you can land five or under in close proximity of each other 12 times.

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It took me 87 clicks to get a number between 1 and 5. If I managed to have similar RNG throughout all 12, it'd take me 1044 FATEs to complete. Obviously I could have better, or worse, RNG.

Edit:
Set 1
Atma 1 - 87
Atma 2 - 16
Atma 3 - 53
Atma 4 - 13
Atma 5 - 8
Atma 6 - 16
Atma 7 - 3
Atma 8 - 6
Atma 9 - 5
Atma 10 - 9
Atma 11 - 107 (Personally I call this one Western La Noscea *grumbles*)
Atma 12 - 2

This would have been a total of 325 FATEs if we were doing that instead of using a random number generator (which is literally what the system is using). There's no consistency in any of this. All 12 of those could have just as easily been 100+ as 10 or less. I'd personally much rather have a set 'do 50 FATEs' in X zone. Hell, I'd be fine with 75, or 100. At least then I'd KNOW my progress was being counted towards it. I'd KNOW there was a goal in sight instead of 'hoping' that it managed to drop on the next fate after doing that 106th one. I'm sure if you repeat the process enough times you'll eventually have some that end up all being over 100. That's the nature of RNG. Eventually, at some point int the sample you'll have something that's extremely shitty, and something that's really good. Having it set to a specific number per zone seems perfectly reasonable to me instead of leaving those few that DO catch the bad RNG to do the 1200+ FATEs.

Edit 2: Second set took 237. I'll be keeping the number of rolls each individual 'atma' took and continue editing to show total number of rolls per set until I get bored I suppose. It will very likely average out to something reasonable for most sets, but I'm banking on there being some that will be ridiculously low, and others that will be ridiculously high (since that's the nature of RNG). The issue with the system isn't with the people who fall into the lucky - average, it's the few who are getting the shit end of the RNG stick. There is absolutely no reason some should be able to go 200 when others can go 1000+.

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Originally Posted by Eliniell

It took me 87 clicks to get a number between 1 and 5. If I managed to have similar RNG throughout all 12, it'd take me 1044 FATEs to complete. Obviously I could have better, or worse, RNG.

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It took my exactly two clicks to get the number one.

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Originally Posted by WellGramarye

I'd also like to point out that people seem to not have any concept of the claim system of this game. If you hit a mob and someone else kills it, you both get credit, so there is no reason if someone comes up and attacks your mob while doing books to nuke it into oblivion as they are probably trying to get credit as well. Let them kill it and you both benefit, especially since a lot of book mobs only have 3-4 spawns. There is no need to "fight" over them.

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You have to do like 30-40% damage in order to get credited.

Edit: 5 clicks: 4
Wee... me lucky today. :D

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Originally Posted by WellGramarye

You took this way out of context, but you know what; fine you are right. I didn't find Atma farming solo fun. So you guess what I did? I stopped doing it and did other things I thought was fun, until there was a way for me to have fun farming Atma, which is what I said before; if you were so inclined to read it.

That's the point I'm trying to get across. If its not fun, why do it? Either find a way that makes it fun, or do something else. If you are so hard up to be geared, then there are 2-3 alternate ways to get nearly the same gear. As I said before, fun is SUBJECTIVE. I know a few people who don't mind just mindlessly doing Fates all day for their Atma because its a relaxing no stress way to progress.

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Of course "fun" is a subjective thing, I was not arguing about that.
My point was to say that, even if you were able to find some fun doing Atma farming, if was under a very specific set of circumstances, implying that the usual way to do it did not provide any fun to you (and to a lot of other people who are currently posting in this very thread).

Even if some people farm that content mindlessly all day long, it doesn't mean that the content is good enough. It just mean that some people have low quality standards or are used to farming to the point that it doesn't bother them.

Still, it's very easy to say that Atma farming doesn't feel like a good end game content, and is very sub-par compared to the other steps of the Relic Questline.
It's also true to claim that the Atma weapon is now completly outdated, thus, making the long process of grinding irrelevant.

The point of having to farm content like that is to slow people down until new content comes out. Just like weekly restrictions.
But now, it's about time to remove (or ease) the process of getting, at least, the Atma weapon, since it doesn't represent a good enough reward compared to the amount of time and effort you have to put in.

...even if a very few people can find some fun into this long and mindless grind.

We need not be nerfing content or anything in this game it is already too easy. There is no reason to have this much hand holding it needs to stop.

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

We need not be nerfing content or anything in this game it is already too easy. There is no reason to have this much hand holding it needs to stop.

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The problem is there's nothing inherently 'difficult' about waiting on an RNG drop rate. If you just took the average amount of fates it 'should' take most people and just made each person complete that number for each Atma (Roughly 20-25 per atma) it would still be the same thing without hoping you don't get screwed on RNG. There's literally nothing difficult about spamming these low level fates for hours on end.

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

We need not be nerfing content or anything in this game it is already too easy. There is no reason to have this much hand holding it needs to stop.

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How exactly does your post relate to the atma drop rate? It is neither easy or hard, it is RNG. It isn't the same as nerfing coils or primals etc, not even remotely similar.

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

We need not be nerfing content or anything in this game it is already too easy. There is no reason to have this much hand holding it needs to stop.

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I completely agree. I remember video games from the late 80s to mid-90s... they were much more difficult! Some adventure games didn't have maps, no saves, no tutorials... And many of those were highly praised. But today's generation has become more impatient, too reliant on technology and want everything handed to them. Once the FFXIV team began to ease up on a few mechanics, the community noticed and expect them to ease up on other things, too. Just stop it, lol.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

How exactly does your post relate to the atma drop rate? It is neither easy or hard, it is RNG. It isn't the same as nerfing coils or primals etc, not even remotely similar.

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How doesn't it relate?

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Originally Posted by Kyousha

I completely agree. I remember video games from the late 80s to mid-90s... they were much more difficult! Some adventure games didn't have maps, no saves, no tutorials... And many of those were highly praised.

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And they were mostly shitty games that only got away with crap like that because people didn't know any better.
Wake up. This is 2014 not 1995.

People have long since realized that mindless grinding and excessive RNG aren't fun.
They are methods to frustrate the player in order to create the sensation of "reward" or "relief" when the frustration part finally ends.
That is CRAP DESIGN no matter how you slice it.
Gameplay by itself should be ENTERTAINING and not frustrating or boring.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

How exactly does your post relate to the atma drop rate? It is neither easy or hard, it is RNG. It isn't the same as nerfing coils or primals etc, not even remotely similar.

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This is the relic quest the best weapon in the game someday, it should not be handed out like candy. Player's need to work for it not have it handed to them. It should be a long process with rng, as well as challenge. This weapon is for those who can have the stamina to go all the way. This quest line should be grindy and with rng it isnt something that everyone needs but it is for those who wish to deal with the trials.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

And they were mostly shitty games that only got away with crap like that because people didn't know any better.
Wake up. This is 2014 not 1995.

People have long since realized that mindless grinding and excessive RNG aren't fun.
They are methods to frustrate the player in order to create the sensation of "reward" or "relief" when the frustration part finally ends.
That is CRAP DESIGN no matter how you slice it.
Gameplay by itself should be ENTERTAINING and not frustrating or boring.

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SO is this hand hold easy mode that most games and MMO's have turned into. The fact is games now a days provide instant gratification, we dont need that. Player do not need instant gratification like they keep asking for this needs to stop. Players dont need a damn reward for everything they do and its about the journey not what new shiney you get.

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

This is the relic quest the best weapon in the game someday, it should not be handed out like candy.

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Yes, but we are talking about the Atma weapon. Not the ultimate stage of the Relic that doesn't even exist yet.
Beside the fact that the Atma weapon is the same thing as the Zenith one, the Atma weapons are already outdated. Yet, the way to obtain them is more tedious, boring and unchallenging then the way to obtain better weapons.
So, the whole "but it gonna be powerful... someday!" isn't a valid point.

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

Player's need to work for it not have it handed to them.

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Nobody said otherwise. We just say that the amount of work to put in is ridiculous considering the fact that the Atma stage is outdated and virtually useless.

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

... that It should be a long process with rng, as well as challenge. This weapon is for those who can have the stamina to go all the way. This quest line should be grindy and with rng it isnt something that everyone needs but it is for those who wish to deal with the trials.

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It already is a long process with RNG. But we are, again, just talking about the absurd Atma farming process, which involves too much time and rng.
Plus, don't talk about "challenge", unless you consider doing low level FATEs a challenging thing to do.

Finally, your opinion is very hostile against newcomers who, with your point of view of how long and boring things should be, won't be able to ever catch up.

It probably is time to ease this up. The book phase is easier since myth is more plentiful, and even alexandrites are easier to get than they initially were. Throw us a bone already.

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

SO is this hand hold easy mode that most games and MMO's have turned into. The fact is games now a days provide instant gratification, we dont need that. Player do not need instant gratification like they keep asking for this needs to stop. Players dont need a damn reward for everything they do and its about the journey not what new shiney you get.

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Your blabbering about instant gratification is irrelevant as it has 0 to do with the topic at hand.

I've seen no one here that asked for instant Atma drops.
I see people that want the RNG bullshit gone.

SE designed the grind in a way, that <on average> a player has to do 400 FATEs in order to get a set.
However, due to the mathematics of how RNG works, you get extreme ends: some only need 200, others need 800, many lie in between.
It's a continuous distribution.

What people are asking is to remove that aspect and make the 400 a fixed number.
IT'S THE SAME GODDAMN EFFORT as the targeted average only with a visible "progress bar" and the knowledge when you will be done.

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

This is the relic quest the best weapon in the game someday, it should not be handed out like candy. Player's need to work for it not have it handed to them. It should be a long process with rng, as well as challenge. This weapon is for those who can have the stamina to go all the way. This quest line should be grindy and with rng it isnt something that everyone needs but it is for those who wish to deal with the trials.

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Not sure you truly understand the expression "handed out like candy" if you are using it in this situation.

Because it took me a month just to Atma 1 weapon. Here's an honest answer. Sometimes I spent 1 hour and some days I spent 5-10 hours. Currently Working on a 2nd set, Last Saturday I spent 10 hours while doing some content here and there but the bulk of my time was Farming at least 20 fates per area then switching. I got 1 ATMA out of all that. I don't think its to much to ask to buff the drop rate.

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Originally Posted by ZReport

Smart people do this. Dumb people will try to finish every FATE one at a time.

You can get Atma, even on failed FATEs.

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That hasent been confirmed

Atma farming is not absurd, it is the fact taht you have to farm X amount of times thats what player's dont like. You can get all 12 atma's in a short period of time. It took me 24 hours to get 1 set of 12 to me that isnt long, not to mention the seals you can turn in for items to sell on the market boards.

Just because you or who ever dosent like to grind or rng dosent mean it needs to change. We do need time sync's and the relic time sync is fine. There are other things you can do if you dont get a drop as fast as you want or would like.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Not sure you truly understand the expression "handed out like candy" if you are using it in this situation.

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If they ease the drop rate on atma's yes to me thats handing it out like candy. There is nothing wrong with the atma drops they are fine player's just need to realize that not everything should give you what you want when you want.

As I said before i got all 12 in a 24 hour period. here's another tip switch zones for a different atma if the zone your in dosent drop 1, group up with other's, que for a dungeon while doing fate's (unless ur a healer or a tank). Also remember you dont have to do this in 1 sitting do it on another day, switch up the times in game when you try farming for fate's.

Sorry but I'm getting really frustrated reading things like 'yeah I grinded every day for a week 2 hours a day and didn't get an atma' etc. While I would welcome a change in the atma system for my second and third classes (I already have 110/150 extra alex for them but only 1/24 atma), I don't think the time is now. Most of the hardcore raiders JUST started getting their atma with the nexus patch because now the relic can be best in slot based on personal customization. If you change it now you basically validate their stance previous to this patch which is something along the lines of 'forget it I'll just wait until SE nerfs it.' I spent 36 hours in central than over a period of 7 days to get ONE ATMA. I challenge anybody who is complaining about atma being too low a drop to spend 36 hours in the same area. However I don't think it will take that long. And I guarantee you will get your atmas if you just keep going and quit quitting.

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

It took me 24 hours to get 1 set of 12 to me that isnt long,

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If I could guarantee a complete set of 12 atma in 24 hours, I wouldn't mind that at all, but the fact of the matter is, many many people, including me, can spend more than 24 hours on a SINGLE atma drop. You got your atma handed to you like candy, but for the rest of us who spent 3-4 times the amount you did for one set, or even the ones who don't even have a complete set because it either won't drop or they gave up after 1000+ FATES, it was a mind numbing grind with no real reward.

For the record, I do have a Novus Weapon, working on Nexus. I have no problems doing the books, grinding out the Alexandrite or even Light Farming, however I do have a problem with the Atma. The fact it is pure RNG with no way to increase your odds from the low drop rate is the one thing stopping me from making another atma weapon. Like everyone else said, I'm not expecting them to be handed out just for you sneezing on a mob, but if I know I can guarantee an atma set after doing X amount of work, then I will be more likely to get another set.

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Originally Posted by Kyousha

I completely agree. I remember video games from the late 80s to mid-90s... they were much more difficult! Some adventure games didn't have maps, no saves, no tutorials... And many of those were highly praised. But today's generation has become more impatient, too reliant on technology and want everything handed to them. Once the FFXIV team began to ease up on a few mechanics, the community noticed and expect them to ease up on other things, too. Just stop it, lol.

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THERE IS NO DIFFICULTY.
its neither easy, nor is it hard.

You don't get it or not get it because you did/did not do something special to the cause.

It is RNG,
A crappy 1% rate RNG - that causes people like me to get it in a few fates, and people like Kusari-chan to not get it in several hundred.

ERADICATE THIS NOTION OF DIFFICULTY FROM YOUR MIND.