Is this the road they will continue to take with items?

Blame the playerbase

I think it's a rather boring idea to keep adding items like this, and we obtain them the same way everytime (do 100 dungeons roulettes and you have enough of XX allagan tomestone to buy your XXilvl gear)
Luckily for me I care more about my character than the ilvl of the gear, I want her to be pretty so I'd rather collect all kinda vanity items (which imo is harder than getting tokens for xxilvl)

But people playing this only to progress gear wise, I don't get it why you even play this game, that part of the game is one of the worst I've experience in an mmo :(

I got bored of the gear upgrading scheme in this game. It's always gather xxx tomestones. In only 3 months and before you gear up all your jobs new tomestones appear and again the same. They need to stop this thing with the tomestones. It's boring already. And with the hunts it went ridiculously easy. I'm not fan of the super hardcoreway to get things but man this hunt got retarded too fast.

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Originally Posted by Magis

... it's if the iPhone 7 was the iPhone 6 but had a different coat of paint on it and a 5% faster CPU but all the new programs ran 5% slower anyway (leading to a net improvement of 0%). Functionally it's the same, no new features... .

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If they are same cost, everyone will select the new one. ^^;
My example just my tho about when new gear has replaced old gears, old gear should be easier to obtain.
Like the old model should have price reduction but not selling for the same price at it is a new prodcut.

I don't mind the gear progression so much, but I do wish they would take a leaf out of FFXI's book when it comes to designing them.

Take White Mage, for example. in XI they have equipment which raises magic skills, directly boosts cure potency and even gear which gives them MP returns on certain spellcasting. Here in XIV we get a few extra mind, a few extra piety and a little extra spell speed. Total gain isn't much with each individual piece, so you never really feel the progression so much.

It would be great if gear was given some unique stats. It would make some gear more sought after than gear of the same ilvl, as well as open up opportunities for expanding the materia selection to new unique bonuses. Everything just feels a bit too vanilla, like the devs are scared to do something a bit unique with the game, and as long as that continues, I expect the gear treadmill will too.

Item level 110 gear is dirt easy to get with the HUNT system and you're complaining about item level 90? HAHA, laughable.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I don't mind the gear progression so much, but I do wish they would take a leaf out of FFXI's book when it comes to designing them.

Take White Mage, for example. in XI they have equipment which raises magic skills, directly boosts cure potency and even gear which gives them MP returns on certain spellcasting. Here in XIV we get a few extra mind, a few extra piety and a little extra spell speed. Total gain isn't much with each individual piece, so you never really feel the progression so much.

It would be great if gear was given some unique stats. It would make some gear more sought after than gear of the same ilvl, as well as open up opportunities for expanding the materia selection to new unique bonuses. Everything just feels a bit too vanilla, like the devs are scared to do something a bit unique with the game, and as long as that continues, I expect the gear treadmill will too.

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They already addressed why they did not want to make gear like that, at least not the moment. But yes, I do agree that that would make gear so much more interesting. Honestly, I don't care if people use lower level gear for its effect, the uniqueness of various gear pieces was one of the things I love about FFXI and one of the things that made NM hunting so fun. Then again, gear is so easy to get in this game that it probably won't have the same feeling; in FFXI, yes sometimes lower level gear is better but those gear took a lot of effort to get so it felt right.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

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It's for balance. The more "stats" you add to gear, be them your run of the mill things like det/crit or special things like you described, the harder it is to balance the game. They could get some added at some point, I mean WoW had them on the very first tier Raid sets as set bonuses, and a few pieces here and there. But people have to understand why we don't have them. Balance IS important, and XI was very far from being balanced.

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Originally Posted by ispano

It's for balance. The more "stats" you add to gear, be them your run of the mill things like det/crit or special things like you described, the harder it is to balance the game. They could get some added at some point, I mean WoW had them on the very first tier Raid sets as set bonuses, and a few pieces here and there. But people have to understand why we don't have them. Balance IS important, and XI was very far from being balanced.

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I liked those games where you could "create" your own "Hero" (replace Hero with Gear).
The games i am thinking of you could create the whole Hero, not only the equip.
Its from D&D Series, and yes some are MMORPGs not all are made "Singleplayer"...

Mostly the answer is: To complicated, we will keep it simple for new players!
What I do not understand is that they change the "system" instead of making the same system simpler...

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Originally Posted by Taban

I do agree that more options would be nice, I"m not sure why they didn't make ST items upgradeable with sands. That seemed like a perfect time to release more i110 gear to me. That said any horizontal progression is just going to be broken down into BIS lists instantly. If they released a second raid tier with the exact same item level gear most people would aim for the few "real" upgrades, and there would be a lot lower enthusiasm for any raid that didn't drop a new tier of gear. Horizontal progression worked in ffxi because the game was built around multiple sets of gear and swapping them out mid fight. Without that mechanic people won't collect 8 sets of gear because they're still only going to use the "best" one for their job.

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Hi Taban,

Definitely agree, it seemed like Syrcus Tower would've been a good area to offer a chance for an Upgrade Path (and some horizontal / alt gear set).

As for horizontal progression being broken down into a BIS immediately and the other horizontal sets being "second tier," it's possible, but it also depends on balancing and proper planning:

* If there was enough content (End Game Raids / Dungeons / Primals etc.) that challenged players across a number of statistics (if those mattered), then you could definitely have encounters that, say, favored a DEX vs. STR or Enmity Build, etc.

* With Stats that Mattered, and say, the player had flexibility to use Materia with max ilevel gear (e.g., Rare Crafted Item w/ Rare Dungeon Drop Mats), it could open up possibilities, where, say a Tank wanted to use a customized Adamantium Bracelet (w/ +DEX (if it mattered), + Enmity) vs. another Tank who wanted to use +STR, + STR build etc.). So Horizontal Progression allows for more customization based on your own play style.

It's all about how effective the stats and if the A.I. / Fights are balanced to allow multiple build effectively.

Look at Fighting Games. For example, there are plenty of top tier tournament players who favor and use Juri's Feng Shui Engine Ultra instead of her Kaisen Dankairaku Ultra (or vice versa) (in SSFIV where you can slot only 1). It's tuned and balanced in a way that it's not just about 1 "BIS" and everything else is worthless. Both are effective and it's the player that makes the most of the tools at their disposal.

If it was badly designed (and all boss encounters) just favored, say, 1 Horizontal Progression build, that's the fault of the Developers. It doesn't mean that Horizontal Progression can't work.

Lastly, as Ultimatecalibur said, the other key difference is that in a more Horizontal skew, even if you didn't get your target "BIS" yet, it's not like it was rendered completely worthless next patch. If you ended up only getting part of a DEX Build or Enmity Build for your Tank, and next major patch they released a Counterattack Build or STR Build, at the same Item Level, you could still go for those without having your previous gear be worthless. Not so with what we have now with pure Vertical Progression.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

If they are same cost, everyone will select the new one. ^^;
My example just my tho about when new gear has replaced old gears, old gear should be easier to obtain.
Like the old model should have price reduction but not selling for the same price at it is a new prodcut.

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That's assuming that people didn't have a iPhone 6 (or ilvl100 gear) in the first place. Remember, we are talking about players playing at end-game, not people just joining. There is very little meaning when you go from ilvl 90->100->110. It's just a marginal stat upgrade to defeat the next boss, rather than progressing your character in a meaningful way.

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Originally Posted by PenutButter

They already addressed why they did not want to make gear like that, at least not the moment.

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What was the reason?

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

I liked those games where you could "create" your own "Hero" (replace Hero with Gear).
The games i am thinking of you could create the whole Hero, not only the equip.
Its from D&D Series, and yes some are MMORPGs not all are made "Singleplayer"...

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Sadly, MMOs transitioned from creating a virtual world where your character "lives", to a multiplayer video game with a bunch of other people in it. Case in point, most of the content is done with 4-8 people locked out from anyone else (so much for massively multiplayer). Heck, you can't even talk to other people besides your FC! As Yoshi said in the last live letter, it's a themepark. Go to each piece of content and consume it.

Here is the thing, the theme park idea is fine. It gives them a "base" of "activities" that players can do. What they should have done is - with each patches, upgrading things or adding stuff to make older contents relevant. And as other have pointed out, giving OPTIONS on horizontal gears would be great. They can add accessories that boost cure potency, 3%-5% here and there, max it at 15%. Or tank gears that will mitigate damage reduction, up to 15%. The same with accuracy and attack boost gears. All it does is making the grind a little bit less of a grind, even if it is for a few minutes less per dungeon run due to your "boosted" stats. Crystal Towers need a big upgrade when it comes to items and reward, as it is now, Labyrinth of Ancients provide you with the least amount of reward in terms of risk/ratio/time spent.

EXAMPLE:
- They can add dungeon boss to the daily NM Hunt for 15 seals, one a day, random dungeon. And add ONE weekly dungeon boss that gives you 30 seals. Plus one random weekly hard mode trial Primal for another 20 seals. This will boost overall weekly seals and at the same time making older content somewhat worthwhile to do - if not once a week or once a day.
- They can add materia level 3-4 from treasure chest in dungeons, from level 41 and up. Random materia obviously, and random chance it may drop that.

That's just example on how making older contents relevant by altering existing ones.

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Originally Posted by ispano

It's for balance. The more "stats" you add to gear, be them your run of the mill things like det/crit or special things like you described, the harder it is to balance the game.

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MMOs aren't supposed to be easy to balance. It's work, and work that somehow XI managed to do without too much trouble. I don't want to go back to the days where Okotes were relevant for your entire monk career, but I'd like to see them branch out with stats a little more. Enmity+\-, Cure Potency, all those things that were interesting in XI that are nonexistent here. We need some variety and complexity.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

MMOs aren't supposed to be easy to balance. It's work, and work that somehow XI managed to do without too much trouble...

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Probably because they likely didn't care much for balance, instead just use a Job+subjob system and let the players sort it all out, leading to things like a ninja that was supposed to be a DPS becoming used as a tank and a Red Mage becoming so gamebreakingly powerful and versatile it sets unrealistic expectations for it if it comes to XIV

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

MMOs aren't supposed to be easy to balance. It's work, and work that somehow XI managed to do without too much trouble. I don't want to go back to the days where Okotes were relevant for your entire monk career, but I'd like to see them branch out with stats a little more. Enmity+\-, Cure Potency, all those things that were interesting in XI that are nonexistent here. We need some variety and complexity.

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Yeah, I'm going to stop you there. Square Enix did a terrible job at balancing FFXI.

It's extremely easy to see by looking at:

• How powerful Bards were.
• How terrible Summoners were.
• How Samurai were the most powerful melee in endgame for years.
• How dragoons were terrible until the release of Hasso (which was acquired by using Samurai as a subjob no less).
• How they managed to turn a class (Ninja) that was supposed to DPS into a tank and the tank class into a DPS (Samurai) because they couldn't balance them properly before releasing them.

and there are plenty of other examples.


Could we use more depth ? Yeah of course but let's not kid ourselves here and say that FFXI was even remotely good at balancing their content.

The scale of the game is too small compared to other MMOs. That's the real problem. Too small = too little options.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

MMOs aren't supposed to be easy to balance. It's work, and work that somehow XI managed to do without too much trouble. I don't want to go back to the days where Okotes were relevant for your entire monk career, but I'd like to see them branch out with stats a little more. Enmity+\-, Cure Potency, all those things that were interesting in XI that are nonexistent here. We need some variety and complexity.

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As I and others have said, XI was NOT balanced. At all.