Who is gonna raid now with the iLvl 110 gear handed to people??

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Originally Posted by Fendred

They shouldn't have been making content that hard to begin with, since most Final Fantasy fans fall into the category of mainstream and casual gamers as opposed to hardcore gamers. Plus, you don't need statistics to know that the hardcore gaming crowd for MMORPGs has been in decline for some time now. There used to be half a dozen excellent tutorials per boss for the more popular MMOs, but nowadays you'd be lucky to find just one good quality video that explains things right.

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I blame MOBAs.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

They shouldn't have been making content that hard to begin with, since most Final Fantasy fans fall into the category of mainstream and casual gamers as opposed to hardcore gamers. Plus, you don't need statistics to know that the hardcore gaming crowd for MMORPGs has been in decline for some time now. There used to be half a dozen excellent tutorials per boss for the more popular MMOs, but nowadays you'd be lucky to find just one good quality video that explains things right.

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BAHAHAHAHAH

tell that to Emerald Weapon, Omega Weapon, Yiazmat or Absolute Virtue.

FF has always had hard core content.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

I'm sorry but this "people can't do the content because it's too hard" excuse isn't going to fly. If someone can't beat this simple event with 20% stats AND a extra 10+ ilvls (aka healing, tanking, and dps is no issue and the only thing to do is follow 4 mechanics) then they aren't simply bad. They aren't even trying. Takes more coordination to drive yourself to work in the morning. "omg a red circle on that light what do I do!?!?!?!?!"

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You evidently haven't played as a tank or healer during that fight. Also, I've raided for over 10 years and I can say with certainty that encounter has issues. If everyone is literally performing at the peak of human efficiency, the group will wipe due to limit bar gauge not getting filled by the time snakes are dispatched. In addition, the attacks are either misleadingly named (like "twister", which should be correctly named something like "twister mine" or "twister rune"), provide insufficient cues as to what the ability actually does before it goes off (conflags and fireballs), or are essentially cheap shots because you have insufficient time to react to them without prior knowledge of the mechanic (dive bombs). Healers get it the worst because they have to pay attention to all the same stuff the tank and dps do while also monitoring health bars and memorizing when a particular attack will occur so the party does not wipe (tail swipes).

Tempest Keep and Sunwell in BC didn't piss me off as much as Turn 5 has.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

BAHAHAHAHAH

tell that to Emerald Weapon, Omega Weapon, Yiazmat or Absolute Virtue.

FF has always had hard core content.

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You mean Final Fantasy XI, which is an MMO. I recall grinding between 1-2 months to get Ochiudo's Kote. Fished for about 6-8 hours a day. People do not have the time to make a game a full time job. Also, Absolute Virtue was a mistake. Players were literally passing out from exhaustion trying to fight that boss.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

You mean Final Fantasy XI, which is an MMO. I recall grinding between 1-2 months to get Ochiudo's Kote. Fished for about 6-8 hours a day. People do not have the time to make a game a full time job. Also, Absolute Virtue was a mistake. Players were literally passing out from exhaustion trying to fight that boss.

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I was merely pointing out that most FF games dating back 20 years or so, whether they were MMOs, single player RPGs or whatever (tactics) have had optional, hard core content in addition to the main quest. The idea that FF has a history of fluffy bunny casualness without any very difficult content (outside of Mystic Quest) is absurd.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

This argument has never been used before, really! It's more of a something like "You just didn't earn it". Because let's admit it, /afk'ing at Aetherytes/middle of the maps or /follow to whatever location was mentioned in whatever hunting linkshell(s) you happen to be in is just as much effort as having doing SCoB, right ? :rolleyes:

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Have you even tried Hunting? There's alot of effort involved. Try getting to a mark before it's dead.

Those that truly enjoy raiding will continue to raid. Those that either have had enough of raiding for the past patch or have no interest in raiding also can now gear up via other means.

Why is that so hard to come to terms with?

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Those that truly enjoy raiding will continue to raid. Those that either have had enough of raiding for the past patch or have no interest in raiding also can now gear up via other means.

Why is that so hard to come to terms with?

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Because they feel the rewards from hunts invalidate their progress/effort through SCoB, which was the only place sands/oil came from. It would be like going to acting school for 4 years, graduating, setting out in the film industry and getting the lead role in the summer blockbuster film because you've been trained to act; while Joe Schmoe off the street just shows up at the hiring studio and decides to cast him as the lead role because he "looks the part." Never mind if he can act worth a damn.

The biggest problem I'm seeing people complain about is the timing of this. Most people seem to be in agreement that if they had released the Hunts in 2.4, when the third Coil encounters are set to release, it wouldn't be such a big deal because said encounter would hold BETTER spoils than what's currently available to non-raiders.

They see it as a possible continuing trend, which is ultimately their fear that all their work will have been for naught. If they can just wait a couple months, everyone can have current raid-tier level gear. To quote a fitting line:

"And then when everyone's super……… NO ONE will be."

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I was merely pointing out that most FF games dating back 20 years or so, whether they were MMOs, single player RPGs or whatever (tactics) have had optional, hard core content in addition to the main quest. The idea that FF has a history of fluffy bunny casualness without any very difficult content (outside of Mystic Quest) is absurd.

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I've played every Final Fantasy game since the first one and I have no idea what you're talking about. No mainstream Final Fantasy title save for the odd-ball FFXI had content that is anything like what we are seeing in FFXIV. There were certainly good, hard boss fights in those games, but comparing those games to FFXIV is like comparing a gold fish to a whale. They may both be animals, but they're magnitudes apart.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

1 piece of gear is not worth giving the all this i110 around.

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For the next tier of coil, people are going to want BiS.

Also some people actually enjoy doing coil. IMAGINE THAT.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

then they need to nerf BCoB T5 first, in order to let more ppl enter SCoB.

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If they can't get through turn 5 with the echo buff they will have zero chance of progressing through SCoB at it's present state. Turn 7 for example needs a lot more coordination and communication than any other turn before. same with turn 8 and even more so with turn 9.

I don't think anyone has a problem with being able to obtain sands/oils outside SCoB, it's the ease of how many you can obtain in such a short period of time/ Whereas SCoB is limited to 8 a month. With luck and time you can obtain that amount in a week with hunts. Syrcus towwer will be 1 sand per week, SCoB is 2 sands per week. To keep those drops valid, why wasn't a 1 per week cap given to sands/oils (or a seal cap for the same effect) given to hunts?

Players bring up Best in Slot needing Coil drops. They don't. Best in Slot with coil drops are calculated with hitting accuracy caps. If someone doesn't raid coil, that BiS is no longer BiS as the accuracy needed for everything else is much, much lower.

In fact you can calculate a differnt BiS set for each turn, don't need 515 acc for turn 6 :D

I'm still raiding, I'm in coil right now =p

I see no problem with the timing of it, 3 months where raiders are the only ones with sands, 3 months where others can catch up on gear. It's probably better than the system where everyone just got i90 tome gear from the get go.

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Originally Posted by A_Magical_Unicorn_Rider

The biggest problem I'm seeing people complain about is the timing of this. Most people seem to be in agreement that if they had released the Hunts in 2.4, when the third Coil encounters are set to release, it wouldn't be such a big deal because said encounter would hold BETTER spoils than what's currently available to non-raiders.

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The timing is fine really.

We've been at ScoB since March/April, it's becoming quite old content already.



Honestly, if people are sucking on big fat salty lemons because "OTHERS CAN GET MUH COIL GEAR", then obviously those people never had terrible luck with drops in coil. (Hunts are a fantastic way to bridge the gap now)

There's also the challenge of the raid itself, which I personally enjoy. I'd probably do constant runs on T5-T9 and LeviEx/MogEx/RamuhEx because I just enjoy trying to beat the most difficult content. The only unenjoyable aspect is when people turn toxic or give up in 2-3 tries.

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Originally Posted by Black91CRX

Have you even tried Hunting? There's alot of effort involved. Try getting to a mark before it's dead.

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That's not really effort.

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Originally Posted by Shioban

For the next tier of coil, people are going to want BiS.

Also some people actually enjoy doing coil. IMAGINE THAT.

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Next tier is next tier so i110 will not be relevent. Unfortunately, we are not on tier. People will run coils for the challenges and fun the first few times. You kid yourselves if you think most people will run it for fun for months though.

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Originally Posted by Shioban

The timing is fine really.

We've been at ScoB since March/April, it's becoming quite old content already.



Honestly, if people are sucking on big fat salty lemons because "OTHERS CAN GET MUH COIL GEAR", then obviously those people never had terrible luck with drops in coil. (Hunts are a fantastic way to bridge the gap now)

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Timing is not fine. We arestill on the same tier for still 3-4 months. By the way, I don't have SCoB gear, I'm against handouts.

Actually, when ARR first launched, Coils gear and Myth gear were equal in ilvl. Raiders went for Coils because not ALL myth pieces were BiS.

I still raided because I like vanity back in BCoB1. That and if you want best in slot, doing both is what you should be doing. I don't think people are gonna stop raiding because there are still TONS of people at Fallgourd Float waiting to raid. That and the people doing CT.

I'm not gonna farm hunts all day, it's boring when there is nothing but a Zerg chasing B ranks around.

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The biggest problem I'm seeing people complain about is the timing of this. Most people seem to be in agreement that if they had released the Hunts in 2.4, when the third Coil encounters are set to release, it wouldn't be such a big deal because said encounter would hold BETTER spoils than what's currently available to non-raiders.

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On what bizarre planet does giving non-coil players a single ilvl upgrade in 6-8 months (i90 - i100) make sense? I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous. In the same way that Raiders need their Ego fed with top tier gear, the general population needs goals too. This patch was for them, not raiders. People don't seem to understand that.

I'm guessing we'll descend into some stupid argument about how people don't really need i110 now...

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By the way, I don't have SCoB gear, I'm against handouts.

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Koombaya hand holding for Hunt NM's aside, if you don't put in the time, you don't get rewarded. Simple. Are you actually doing any hunts?

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Actually, when ARR first launched, Coils gear and Myth gear were equal in ilvl. Raiders went for Coils because not ALL myth pieces were BiS.

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It also allowed you to gear with both Myth and Coil gear at the same time, effectively increasing the speed at which you could gear up.

Clearly 2 exclusive gear streams for 4 months in second coil wasn't enough for some people to get geared, at least that's the conclusion I'm drawing from all this saltiness.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Timing is not fine. We arestill on the same tier for still 3-4 months.

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It's not perfect timing, but it's not bad either, pretty much anyone doing these hunts, is doing it to obtain gear for coil to aid progression or to prepare for the next set of content to come in 2.4.

(Although some just like to get the gear "Just because".)

SCoB whether you like it or not reached it's "Climax" a long time ago, with a new tier of content coming out in 3 months it really doesn't matter that people are being given a helping hand already considering we're across the half way marker now with the release of 2.3

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Originally Posted by Dwill

By the way, I don't have SCoB gear, I'm against handouts.

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If you recall 2.0 on launch, myth gear was on-par with coil gear. Some people had salty lemons over the fact that i90 Myth was on par BiS for piece with i90 BCoB gear.
To counteract this they added in a necessary "upgrade" for gear.

Most groups prefer it when their members put in the effort to try and expedite and ease their SCoB progression by other means if possible.

Getting 3-4 sands of time bumping you up to i100+ isn't a "hand-out", you still have to work towards getting it, and in the end it'll benefit yourself and your group.

"I dont want to get it, because I don't like it" just puts it across that you're the weak-link in the chain for a coil group.



A lot of people who're sitting on or completed Turn 9 have virtually next to no drops from coil, this is just another way to get items, it's also a (bit of a) help for those who're still struggling on the other turns.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Koombaya hand holding for Hunt NM's aside, if you don't put in the time, you don't get rewarded. Simple. Are you actually doing any hunts?

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^ This.

On Excalibur it's not a handout, you either put the time in to obtain it, or you dont.

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Originally Posted by JTribal

Evangela, do you need a T5 clear? Serious question, I love running T5 and we are on the same server xD

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So uh, sorry to Hijack, but uh... Can...Can I get in on this? c.c;;

My FC has been focused on other things. ;w;

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Timing is not fine. We arestill on the same tier for still 3-4 months. By the way, I don't have SCoB gear, I'm against handouts.

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So are you suggesting it would have been fine to release the next tier of Coil/gear and then make sands/ oils available elsewhere? Nobody's going to want to bother with sands or oils when 2.4 hits because new tome gear will be ~i120 and super easy to get once again.

You're saying people will run it a few times for fun/ challenge, but not for months. How quickly do you think people are going to get through Coil (having not done it before)? There should be 10-12 opportunities remaining before TCoB. Sure a lot of people might sit out the last few weeks, but who cares? That's going to happen whether people are geared up or not because they know better gear that's easy to get is coming very soon.

What most people want is for there to remain a small gap in gear between raiders and non-raiders. Essentially setting them apart from others. I think it would be nice (though not really possible) to just look at a character and without ever grouping with them know exactly what their skill level is.

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What most people want is for there to remain a small gap in gear between raiders and non-raiders.

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There was in 2.2 and there will be in 2.4. Surprise surprise that 2.3 (a patch for the majority) bridged the gap before 2.4.

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I think it would be nice (though not really possible) to just look at a character and without ever grouping with them know exactly what their skill level is.

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Welp, you could do this with HA still. Not that it means a whole lot outside of second coil, I've seen enough people equipped in HA wiping Moogle and Levi EX groups to know that's it's not a great indicator of skill in any other content.

you froget this is a gear score game by 2.4 SCOB might be old news and obsolete then we'll have ilvl120. almost pointless to bother with the raids. majority of people get carried through content anyways or they buy wins, why do you think "clear partys" fail in the PF just because someone cleared the content dont mean they were even alive in the fight.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Welp, you could do this with HA still. Not that it means a whole lot outside of second coil, I've seen enough people equipped in HA wiping Moogle and Levi EX groups to know that's it's not a great indicator of skill in any other content.

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Gear doesn't really account for skill sadly, (sometimes a HA weapon counts for something, although not always)

Seen a fair number of great players who've gotten virtually nothing from Turns 4-9.

I'm semi-decent on T9 and I've had two HA drops from coil I can actually use for two different classes.

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Originally Posted by indira

almost pointless to bother with the raids.

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There's a ton of reasons;

• Best In Slot Gear
• Vanity
• Static Groups (Pretty sure most people won't have the items they want for their main/alt covered yet)


Could list more if you want~

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Originally Posted by Nutz

So are you suggesting it would have been fine to release the next tier of Coil/gear and then make sands/ oils available elsewhere?

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That would have been the perfect way for them do do it from my point of view, and would have avoided a lot of the issues with hunts as they are now.


If sands and oils were held back, they would have been a way to quickly catch up to the new raid in terms of gear. They would still be relevant due to the i120 tome gear having a weekly limit, so when the patch hit the sands/oils would have been in the same position as Darklight was when the game launched. Players would ultimately be going for the i120 tomes, but could go for i110 with the unlimited hunts or the lockout-removed Coil 2. Since it is then "Catch Up" gear, instead of top-tier raid content, players wouldn't be zerging the hunts down, and would have options that are more-or-less equivalent in terms of progression since they would have the choice between farming coil or hunts. There is also the weapons. With the UAT dropping in ST, the sands would have still been highly valuable as a way to upgrade your weapon to i110.

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That would have been the perfect way for them do do it from my point of view, and would have avoided a lot of the issues with hunts as they are now.

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Right but then you're releasing a patch with no real upgrades for... anyone really, and lacking a big chunk of content. Raiders wouldn't get to fill out their gear sets, casuals wouldn't have an i110 progression path. People would just skip oils and sands entirely in favor of the next coil tier. It would be a disaster. Far far worse than any of these "issues" with the hunt.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Right but then you're releasing a patch with no real upgrades for... anyone really, and lacking a big chunk of content. Raiders wouldn't get to fill out their gear sets, casuals wouldn't have an i110 progression path. People would just skip oils and sands entirely in favor of the next coil tier. It would be a disaster. Far far worse than any of these "issues" with the hunt.

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Why would causal players skip oils/tombs? If they had waiting until 2.4 to release oils/sands into the hunt things would have worked out and here is why:
1) Hardcore/Raiders would be attempting the TCoB to get the newest tier of raid gear.
2) Casual Players would be attempting to get SCoB gear and upgrade their old ilvl100 gear to ilvl110.

If they hadn't released oils/sands this patch then sure..hardcore raiders would not see any upgrades in gear but casual players would STILL be working to get their full ilvl100 set.

Yes...raiders would most likely NOT be going after oils/sands for their main class, but there is the possibility of gearing alternate classes for fun (if that's your thing). However, the casual players would be very interested in upgrading their gear while they work through SCoB (which would be entirely new content for many of them).

People say all the time that raiders shouldn't get new content every patch because its not fair to casuals who get nothing, but I think this statement is false. If someone has never entered the content before..then it's new to them it doesn't matter when it came out.

God this thread is hilarious. Most of you guys are arguing and arguing and arguing while not even hitting the point.

The problem is not giving "casuals" i110 gear. Give them their gear for their vanity purposes it's fine (and yes i110 is actually only for vanity purposes because you can actually down t9 with an avg ilvl 95 of the whole group AND Savage coil, oh and if you haven't tried savage coil please.. please don't try to judge how hard it is or how much work it is. Just because t6s got downed after 2 days doesn't mean it's a piece of cake).

The real problem is the rate at which you CAN obtain sands. Ofc not everyone will do it hardcore, some will just kill a mark while they're on their way to do a quest or whatever but the fact is that you can get alot of sands in a rather short amount of time if you really want to.

For example: If they locked the sands to 1/week from hunts "casuals" would be full i110 on their left side in 7 weeks (counting the i110 weap). After that they could still get atleast 5 pieces (assuming 2.4 hits exactly 12 weeks after 2.3 but it'll prolly be a bit longer) for another class. This example won't work for people who started with 2.3 or later because of soldiery cap but that's a different story. So after that patch cycle they could have nearly 2 classes in full i110 (assuming they also got oils from ct or t7 or whatever), so they get their "sense of progression" (my own opinion is that going from i90 to i100 is progression too but apparently "casuals" need double the progression as raiders do, or where is the progression for people which are already full i110? And don't say other classes now.) coil would still have this "carrot" (getting additional sands to gear up more classes or gear up faster).

That way there would be a Balance between the raiding content and the "casual" content. And after 2.4 hits they could just remove the weekly sand lockout so everyone can get their remaining classes easily to i110 while focussing the new currency on their main class to get to i120-130.

And like i said before, i know that not everyone is burning through hunts like crazy to get sands, that's not the problem. The problem is the possibility to do that. It's really just a balancing issue. And i think that this example would've been the best solution which would cater to both sides.

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Why would causal players skip oils/tombs? If they had waiting until 2.4 to release oils/sands into the hunt things would have worked out and here is why:
1) Hardcore/Raiders would be attempting the TCoB to get the newest tier of raid gear.
2) Casual Players would be attempting to get SCoB gear and upgrade their old ilvl100 gear to ilvl110.

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Huh? i110 will be obsoleted in 2.4 by a new tier of tome gear and a new tier of Coil gear, probably i120 and i130 respectively. The same thing that happened with 2.2 where i90 got obsoleted by i100 and i110. I don't know about you, but I don't make a point of farming up outdated gear when I have a better option. 2.4 is way, way too late to open up Sands etc.

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If they hadn't released oils/sands this patch then sure..hardcore raiders would not see any upgrades in gear but casual players would STILL be working to get their full ilvl100 set.

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Having never really set foot in Second Coil I have a week or two of work to be full i100 in 2 jobs. What would I do after that for the next 3 months? People with one main will have comfortably hit i100 by now if they're been farming Soldiery since 2.2 got released. What would you expect them to do, quit until 2.4?

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Huh? i110 will be obsoleted in 2.4 by a new tier of tome gear and a new tier of Coil gear, probably i120 and i130 respectively. The same thing that happened with 2.2 where i90 got obsoleted by i100 and i110. I don't know about you, but I don't make a point of farming up outdated gear when I have a better option. 2.4 is way, way too late to open up Sands etc.

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Except you're wrong. Yes new gear from new Tomes and Coil will be released, but how soon do you HONESTLY think people will have full or near full sets? It's going to be a while. Old patch gear will still be relevant til then.

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Except you're wrong. Yes new gear from new Tomes and Coil will be released, but how soon do you HONESTLY think people will have full or near full sets? It's going to be a while. Old patch gear will still be relevant til then.

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Yeah right, but given the option are you going to farm i110 or i120 gear?

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Yeah right, but given the option are you going to farm i110 or i120 gear?

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But you CAN'T farm 110 after you cap that first week or do your coil attempts. You're STUCK. So yes, people will. Plenty of people went and farmed for Myth/Allagan when Second Coil came out, to complement the MAYBE 1 piece they got that first week or two.

I couldn´t care less if people don´t raid.

I don´t raid for the Gear, I am Raiding to achieve a kill on a challenging boss.

Also, just buy strategy stuff and upgrade it via hunt is not the way to BiS, as BiS will always be a mixture of High-Allagan and Strategy stuff...

People with High-Allagan Stuff, especially from T8+T9 will see more respect for their skill from me than people with only upgraded Strategy Stuff...

If you havent cleared SCoB by now then you're way behind, but you should do so anyways so you can be ready for the next turns.

Theres still the HA weap and BiS pieces in SCoB so theres still a reason to run it if you dont already have it.

Its the cycle of FF14, once new turns are released the same people who waited for hunts to gear will be walled for a good amount of time.

Theres also savage coil which gives you a title and thats more than enough of a incentive to run it since it means you're capable of beating any challenge.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

If you havent cleared SCoB by now then you're way behind, but you should do so anyways so you can be ready for the next turns.

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I believe you'll find the majority of the playerbase hasn't cleared the SCoB so making blanket statements like that comes across as an uneducated overgeneralisation.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

I believe you'll find the majority of the playerbase hasn't cleared the SCoB so making blanket statements like that comes across as an uneducated overgeneralisation.

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Well i think what he meant with that is that the next step of coil isnt far away.
This patch is supposed to be a catch up patch.

Giving good gear outside of coil might be what enables more people to do coil. It's the people who are lagging behind due to difficulty that actually need gear more than the frontrunners. People will naturally try all content that is available to them, so you will see more people in coil when they unlock it. If coil participation is declining right now it would be because the people who have been farming it for months are done with it now, while people who haven't got there yet are not seeing difficulty eased enough to make it happen.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

If you havent cleared SCoB by now then you're way behind, but you should do so anyways so you can be ready for the next turns.

Theres still the HA weap and BiS pieces in SCoB so theres still a reason to run it if you dont already have it.

Its the cycle of FF14, once new turns are released the same people who waited for hunts to gear will be walled for a good amount of time.

Theres also savage coil which gives you a title and thats more than enough of a incentive to run it since it means you're capable of beating any challenge.

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Dumb elitist statement lol . I'd bet anything the %age of the player base to have cleared t9 has to be under 1% still. In fact, I'm sure less than 10% of the player base had even cleared T5 by the time echo became introduced to the original Coil. I bet even right now, less than half of the total server population has cleared T5. These statements like "way behind" make me lol - "way behind" for what? Is there a final exam coming up for people they need to pass T9 or their accounts get cancelled lol ? Pretty sure people not interested in Coil will be able to progress in the main storyline too. Pretty certain echo will eventually be introduced to SCoB as well when the next set of Coil-related content is introduced. I guess you could say the casuals are "way behind" the hardcore raiders, but I don't think they really care - hence the term "casual" lol.