Hunts were a terrible/irresponsible idea

I wished they worked like leves. It's a very neat idea and I loved hunting in FFXII, but atm it's just another Odin. Rush there, hope you get to see a glimps of the mosnter and hope it's not dead yet. No thank you.

I think most people complaining have outlined they like the hunts and think it's a good idea. Unfortunately it's current incarnation has too many flaws which ultimately have rendered it unplayable for the vast majority of people.

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

Finding it fine since we re still on the rush of players that came back after a new patch have been released, just give it a few more days

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Are Sands of Time being removed from the rewards in a few more days? I must have missed that announcement.

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

Semantics. It is not "Open World" in the sense that it is not roaming the open world. You induce an instance of the specific chest/mob(s). And a random person walking by can't help you with a leve mob.

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yes? and that's exactly what people want. when you're walking around the world map for it to seem more lively populated by players doing things but you're also not having to compete with everyone that just happens to be there.

benefit of both worlds. what exactly is the problem you would have with that system besides semantics?

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Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

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And you generalizing an entire system based off of 4 experiences in one world out of 60+ is supposed to be more valid?

I'm sorry that your server is full of people like that. I'm sure they didn't materialize out of thin air when Hunts arrived. They were like that well before, and will continue to be like that. So all of us should suffer because Sargatanas is a bad server to play on?

I can name 50 instances in the last two days in Goblin where people DID wait for EVERYONE, LS leaders /shouting in the zone for people to come to the hunt, and to BE IN A PARTY to get full rewards because they die fast, telling people which aetheryte to port to if there was two in the area. I have NEVER felt such a sense of community in this game in the 9 months I have been playing.

So your bad experiences is grounds to put an end to all of this?

This just shows how wildly experiences differ. Do you notice how there aren't many people from Goblin posting on this thread? It's because they are (for the most part) all working together in-game right now and all equally reaping the rewards. I know because I have experienced it for the last two days. I would be right now if I weren't at work. Your server being bad =/= implementing a system that was quite literally asked for by the people in these forums being bad.


HP scaled up on hunts and this system is perfect IMO.

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Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

rendered it unplayable for the vast majority of people.

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If you think "forum posters" are the vast majority of people......

So I just noticed that the cap for marks is 4000. Am I the only one concerned that the relic quest might involve hunts?

With my luck I get 3 marks a day, could you imagine if you needed 4k marks for an item related to the relic weapon questline and the most you could get is 3 a day.

I hope SE reads these threads and comes up with a solid solution.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

HP scaled up on hunts and this system is perfect IMO.

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Yeah an Odin level shit show every 3 hours, fantastic. Honestly how are you going to argue against anecdotal complaints and then offer anecdotal success stories?

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Originally Posted by Giyari

So I just noticed that the cap for marks is 4000. Am I the only one concerned that the relic quest might involve hunts?

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Oh yeah, then I'm sure all these fair weather fans will be still talking about how wonderful the system is. "It's so much better than ATMA farming guys, I swear!"

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

So your bad experiences is grounds to put an end to all of this?

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Stop being such a drama queen. I have every right to vent my concerns with this system. I've been one of the more, shall we say, well spoken people here? I am not reducing my complaints to tirades of abuse at the development team nor am I complaining for the sake of it. I'm expressing concerns that I have every right to share.

And, you know, stop being a hypocrit. You say I'm generalising based on bad experiences but you're doing the exact same thing to me. So you've gotten lucky with the hunts or you've had some occasions where people have waited. I'm so happy for you! Read through this thread and you will see it is clearly the exception. Stop being so delusional.

We told you that this would happen. That putting progression level gear on NM's would create spawn-camping and tag fights. If it hasn't already started, next there will be camping bots. It was a bad idea in the first place to make them open tag instead of force pop.

Honestly thought it be better if they made it a Free company in mind have it were the nm scales how many FC memebers are participting. Then when the party are all in the zone the nm will spawn somewhere in the zone which only your FC can claim giving a decent challenge not this zerg crap we got know. I'm find having open world nm at same time were anyone can help but they need more FC stuff imo.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

If you think "forum posters" are the vast majority of people......

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I saw an S-Rank NM die yesterday in just over a minute. There was well over 100 people there as the ambient sounds played. How many of them got full credit? I am one of those 100 people, maybe one or two more have posted here. There's a lot of people not complaining about this system who aren't getting credit either. Sure, forum posters aren't the majority of people but this is different to something that's just opinion. That this is happening is fact, whether people complain on the forums about it or not. Stop being so naiive. This is a huge issue that is affecting thousands of people. The French forums are flooded with complaints about the hunt too. I don't speak Japanese or German, but I'd bet they are as well.

We get that you've been more fortunate than most with the hunts but that doesn't give you an entitlement to put every single person complaining about it down. The fact that you seem to think it's in people's heads is astonishing. Are you so far absorbed in your own world that you can't see something for what it is? Good for you and good for your marks. The majority of players are not getting credit and are struggling to even get kills on weaker monsters. That's a fact. Argue it all you want but it's happening on every server.

Just to point out, that makes me one of 100+ people on a single NM spawn on a single server. You think it's just my server this is happening on? ;)

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Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

Read through this thread and you will see it is clearly the exception. Stop being so delusional.

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Reading through this thread is the opposite of a good idea. The OP is irrational, the posters moreso, you yourself have made zero point or contribution to the actual discussion, and all in all this is a non-issue. There are tons of new things to do with this patch, and it will not be an issue within a week or so. It's seriously like no one has ever been around for the past 3 major patches since launch, and have seen the pattern of stupidity and irrelevancy people hold dearly onto. There's about, 20 threads about the same thing, made by the same few people, and in less than a week, no one will care.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

Reading through this thread is the opposite of a good idea. The OP is irrational, the posters moreso, you yourself have made zero point or contribution to the actual discussion, and all in all this is a non-issue. There are tons of new things to do with this patch, and it will not be an issue within a week or so. It's seriously like no one has ever been around for the past 3 major patches since launch, and have seen the pattern of stupidity and irrelevancy people hold dearly onto. There's about, 20 threads about the same thing, made by the same few people, and in less than a week, no one will care.

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I posted numerous times on the first page outlining several issues with the system as well as highlighting several ways they could potentially improve the hunt without breaking its intended purpose. You on the other hand are just telling other people they haven't contributed to a thread. Exactly who isn't contributing? Oh, that's right. Because you disagree with somebody it means their contribution is void. Get over yourself.

And the OP seems far from irrational to me. Just because you don't agree with somebody it doesn't make them irrational. She was well spoken and very easy to understand and made fair points based on her personal observations. Agree or not, her post was very rational.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

*snip*

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Why even use this forum then? I mean Jesus Christ, you're literally saying all patch critique are invalid because it's happened previous patches. You really think people are going to get bored of getting free Sands and Oils? Come off it.

There are valid complaints with this system all over the thread. Naturally your only interest is in looking superior to everyone else. I look forward to you mewling like a baby when they jam this into your next relic progression.

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Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

I've been one of the more, shall we say, well spoken people here?.

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Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

drama queen.
stop being a hypocrit.
Stop being so delusional.

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Well spoken at throwing out personal insults to someone who disagrees with your point of view? Is that what you meant?

I don't know you, so I won't retort. When you are uncivil about your arguments, don't expect to receive any type of productive conversation. I have read through the thread. I also can base my knowledge off my experience. I know full well that my experience doesn't reflect the entire game's population. I have every right to vent my opinion on this matter as well. Apparently, my optimism is met with jaded speculation. The only reason your "viewpoint" is more prevalent here is because you have responded in this thread over 10 times.

And as I said before, most people "for" this system aren't wasting their time posting in the forums. They are out enjoying the game and what it has to offer. At the end of the day, SE will base their decisions off of metrics, not one thread of complaints. My guess, is that the metrics show there are tons of people in the open world hunting.

Good day to you.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Well spoken at throwing out personal insults to someone who disagrees with your point of view? Is that what you meant?

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You are not a forum moderator to dictate what people can or can not complain about but you saw fit to tell me anyway that I shouldn't be. Then you told me I shouldn't generalise and assume my experiences meant everyone else was having the same issues. Then you tell me that in your experience the hunt is fine. This was hypocritical, so I called you a hypocrit.

It's not trolling to call a troll a troll. It's not being a jerk to call a jerk a jerk. It's not being a hypocrit to call a hypocrit a hypocrit. Play the manners card all you like... You really have no valid point to make other than "QQ STOP CRYING", barely veiled behinds attempts at seeming to be the 'bigger' man, when in actual fact, you were the first to insult me by completely dismissing my opinion because it disagrees with yours.

And lol, if you think drama queen is an insult you have a lot of growing up to do.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Well spoken at throwing out personal insults to someone who disagrees with your point of view? Is that what you meant?

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Is this some new forum tactic? Behave like a very specific insult and then call someone out for ad hominem?

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Originally Posted by Worm

Is this some new forum tactic? Behave like a very specific insult and then call someone out for ad hominem?

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It's basically the new pseudo-intellectual "defense" which becomes akin to:

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5541169920/hED35061C/

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

I have every right to vent my opinion on this matter as well. Apparently, my optimism is met with jaded speculation.

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I think you mean skepticism, not speculation.

And calling everyone who's critical of the hunts "whiners" and telling people they play on "bad servers" is useless and rude.

Personally Ill be saving my marks. I'm onto Yoshida's trick, I won't be seduced by the Alexendrite cost of 20 marks.

When I think of hunts I think of setting up traps to lure the NM into a false sense of security.

Or maybe have some kind of tracking ability that increases in level.

Ya know fun things.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

If you think "forum posters" are the vast majority of people......

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I'm going to stop you right here and point to Mechwarrior Online, where the " forums are a loud minority" excuse was used by the developers to repeatedly implement things people hated. Yes the forums are a small sample of the playerbase but they are not all of one mind and represent a broad swathe of opinions, else we wouldnt be fighting all the time.

Edit: to elaborate on the Mechwarrior Online scenario. Not only was this excuse used to ignore criticism it was also used to justify bad decisions as 'what the silent majority' wanted and justify going back on promises made early in development. (Things that were explicitly stated would never be added to the game being added)

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

yes? and that's exactly what people want. when you're walking around the world map for it to seem more lively populated by players doing things but you're also not having to compete with everyone that just happens to be there.

benefit of both worlds. what exactly is the problem you would have with that system besides semantics?

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I have no problems with it, but that is not the same as "Open World." People said they wanted open world content and now that it exists they realize that's not what they wanted. What they really want is instanced content in the open world. The two are very different. i.e. Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

I still feel like the "get people into the world" thing is a load of bunk. People are just warping all around the damn place like they're Goku.
http://i.imgur.com/v8fzH71.gif

This is just pretty poorly implemented open world content. Even look at how people go about it, withholding S rank, there is about as much human interaction as an Ambulance dispatch station.

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Originally Posted by Worm

This is just pretty poorly implemented open world content. Even look at how people go about it, withholding S rank, there is about as much human interaction as an Ambulance dispatch station.

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Old HNM system with open claims...

I can't imagine a worse system coming out of SE from all their MMO experience. Expecting people to work together might work great in Japan, but out here on NA legacy servers it's like trying to fight trolls on the Internet.

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Originally Posted by Zaygr

It basically boils down to you having to be amazingly lucky to be in the right place at the right time, or it's a massive waste of time, and like others have said, there isn't really a way to improve at hunting. Either you're there, or you're not and even if you are there rewards aren't guaranteed

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My FC leader did this last night pops into highlands zone to find Naul there, holds and shouts pos, ppl show up and start to zerg so he engages too to get credit, when he says it's dead he gets raged and probably blisted by 50% of people inzone.

The players are to blame for this but so is SE, these people know what the potential is for abusing systems, this was poorly done.

I witnessed this tirade first hand because I was sky-fishing at whitebrim, another poster explained it to a T, this is a tragically implemented "timesink".

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Originally Posted by hyperhelios

Old HNM system with open claims...

I can't imagine a worse system coming out of SE from all their MMO experience. Expecting people to work together might work great in Japan, but out here on NA legacy servers it's like trying to fight trolls on the Internet.

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Pretty sure I saw Japanese forum people complaining that the S rank monsters have too little HP so I imagine they are having the same issues (but maybe with less raging like on our NA servers)
Edit: here's a thread of them complaining about it

The problem isn't hunts, but that you can get sands from hunts and not something like soldiery. If hunt rewards were something other than raid gear, they wouldn't be as camped.

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

I have no problems with it, but that is not the same as "Open World." People said they wanted open world content and now that it exists they realize that's not what they wanted. What they really want is instanced content in the open world. The two are very different. i.e. Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

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so you're saying SE is too incompetent to think for themselves? Devs should be able to interpret what players say they want and what they actually want.

it's as if you expect all players to be highly trained and experienced game designers.

The Devs should know most of us hate FATEs and most of us only tolerant Odin/Behemoth or ignore them completely.

I think people work together alright in the long run, it's just a lot of people trying to get 200 people credit on Naul because they don't understand the breadth of the system.

EDIT: I'm out of posts but just to drive this home. I had a guy think I was lying last night when I told him there were more Hunt monsters and that the weekly was just a small part of it. There are so many issues with it. Though one of them is the people who are just obsessed with Naul.

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Originally Posted by Worm

I think people work together alright in the long run, it's just a lot of people trying to get 200 people credit on Naul because they don't understand the breadth of the system.

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It's not the people on the Naul mark bill that are killing him. That's the issue. The rewards from hunting are too good at the moment with no "casual" alternative.

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Originally Posted by Nukocafe

Pretty sure I saw Japanese forum people complaining that the S rank monsters have too little HP so I imagine they are having the same issues (but maybe with less raging like on our NA servers)

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My favorite irony of this situation is that sharing in XI was definitely NOT encouraged. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that more people from XI play on legacy servers than others where we were taught that battling gilsellers and raging at other linkshells over claims was just another Tuesday. Not surprised people are back to their old selves hating anyone not in their groups like on the old BG forums. We just happened to complete the circle now, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Arrak

It's not the people on the Naul mark bill that are killing him. That's the issue. The rewards from hunting are too good at the moment with no "casual" alternative.

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So we are kill stealing the spawns that other people put up?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

so you're saying SE is too incompetent to think for themselves? Devs should be able to interpret what players say they want and what they actually want.

it's as if you expect all players to be highly trained and experienced game designers.

The Devs should know most of us hate FATEs and most of us only tolerant Odin/Behemoth or ignore them completely.

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As a developer, when someone tells me what they want, I often have to show them that they are wrong in order for them to understand. This means I have to create what they asked for and modify it after the fact. I expect players to be like any other user, oblivious of what development actually entails and not fully understanding what it is they are asking for in a new system.

I'd also like to see your numbers on "most of us." Gauging the forums is not an adequate measure. Odds are that the devs also look at the number of players participating in FATEs to determine if we like them or not. Since this number is likely high because (brace yourself) lots of players do FATEs, even before the relic upgrade was in place, it is not unreasonable for them to think that we enjoy them. After all, if we hated it, we wouldn't do it...

I should also note that I believe that overall the SYSTEM is fine, the only thing (IMO) that needs altered is some of the variables. This doesn't mean that I am against other modifications if it is deemed necessary, just that I don't yet see evidence that it IS necessary.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

So we are kill stealing the spawns that other people put up?

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uh... You don't put up the spawns unless you spawned an S. They just spawn on set timers... And you get seals regardless of whether or not you're on a bill. So no one's kill stealing, they're just seals farming. Doing the bill is rather pointless when you get the same number of seals from finding an A in the world and killing it. Like I said, the rewards are the issue.

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

As a developer, when someone tells me what they want, I often have to show them that they are wrong in order for them to understand. This means I have to create what they asked for and modify it after the fact. I expect players to be like any other user, oblivious of what development actually entails and not fully understanding what it is they are asking for in a new system.

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Often fates are done because they are needed, not because they are fun. There is a reason the majority of them end up barren. They often feel the same, especially if you have a chocobo. Once you have that , any half awake player is capable of face rolling the same 5 objectives with different mob sprites.

The choice for a leveling DPS is either fates, limited amount of leves, or waiting till hell freezes in the df. Are these Fun choices? Not exactly, but FATE are at least the safe and exp getting option.

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

As a developer, when someone tells me what they want, I often have to show them that they are wrong in order for them to understand. This means I have to create what they asked for and modify it after the fact. I expect players to be like any other user, oblivious of what development actually entails and not fully understanding what it is they are asking for in a new system.

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What you said make zero sense for this situation because this is the final project on rollout, not a mockup of one.

As a project manager I understand the need to give what the client tells you they want. However, this is done in a demo environment.

In this case the are giving it directly to a paying client, and that can be a disaster. I am sorry, but if I gave the client what they wanted all the time as a finished product (I.E. @ launch to paying customers), I would be out of a job in short order. There is a big difference between a development team showing a client what they want as a way to get them to understand it shortfalls and introducing it to millions of paying customers and hoping they don't unsubscribe in anger before you can alter it to they way it should have been in the first place.

If you are unable to demo it and are giving it directly to the client (in a case like this where the client is asking for something but may not completely understand the ramifications) it is generally advisable to alter the request to make it best meet clients expectations, not to teach them a lesson that what they are asking for is wrong.

Note I said generally because if the client is another company (unlike this scenario) you really should discuss the situation rather than blindly introduce it to the public without the client's approval.

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

I have no problems with it, but that is not the same as "Open World." People said they wanted open world content and now that it exists they realize that's not what they wanted. What they really want is instanced content in the open world. The two are very different. i.e. Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

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That's not exactly what was implied with open world content. Open world content, by what most people refer to, is that there are many commonly found things to do (along with any rare-ish things to be found, if implemented). This includes high difficulty/stat generic monsters that can be a threat to level 50. We have that now, with the hunts, but it's only based on rare spawns. It's not the same. I can't just go to say... Mor Dhona with a few friends and hope to spiritbind some ilvl70 gear. I can venture out into any area and practically doze off while going from A to B without any real threat of death, short of actually falling asleep in a high 40s area, but if I realize it at some point, I can easily take out whatever threat that is on me alone.

Then there's also incentive to venture out. A lot of games tend to do this by introducing random spawn loot/treasure. Nothing major, and in most cases useless, but still something to at least look out for and maybe feel good about while you do daily quests. Wouldn't it be nice to find a treasure coffer randomly from time to time? Even if it gives you some Aetherial piece that you don't need, at least you can turn it in for some seals or bind/convert it.

New quests that require us to go out to the world are fine... but it's also not the same as open world content. Open world content serves the purpose of giving the world an accurate feel to what the story is trying to portray. It makes us familiarize with the environment and understand that there is something unique about that given area. For example, we know that Sahagin roam the shorelines of La Noscea and Kobolds hold dominion of the mountainous areas. We know that they're a threat to the area (by story concept). If the story wants you to believe that there is danger out in it, we need to see that in an obvious way. As a player though, the beastmen presence offers nothing but a snooze fest of traveling from A to B for a quest and irritation from the fact that we got hit with a Heavy debuff for 20sec by that lv41 mob. Why not include an area that we can't venture alone in without high risk of death? It doesn't have to be part of a quest or anything, nor does it have to include some sort of obvious reward (like a random spawn coffer, though that would be nice). Useless for the solo player, but useful for a group that looks to spiritbind, especially if it were to bind i70+ stuff. Heck, it'd at least make an S rank elite fight a little more interesting if one were to spawn in that area currently.

With Hunts, they're open world content, but it's nothing different than what we already had. They're singular FATE mobs that aren't tied to a FATE. S ranks are essentially Chimera in Northern Thanalan again... but a lot easier in most cases.

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Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

Are Sands of Time being removed from the rewards in a few more days? I must have missed that announcement.

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I dont know, I dont do hunt for that

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Originally Posted by Kallera

The choice for a leveling DPS is either fates, limited amount of leves, or waiting till hell freezes in the df. Are these Fun choices? Not exactly, but FATE are at least the safe and exp getting option.

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Using participation as a measure (I am betting on this being the case as there is no other measure to use) does not provide context, unfortunately. Fact is, players do FATEs so the devs have no indication that players do not like FATEs aside from player feedback from the forum which is not representative of the entire population.

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Originally Posted by AzakaTonnerre

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I agree, and in an ideal world they would be doing beta's on content to get feedback, but they don't. Chances are they have playtesters, and the feedback for this content on a small scale would likely be positive. I stand by my opinion, the SYSTEM isn't broken, the variables need adjusted, that's what hot-fixes are for.

My comment there was to merely address this:

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

so you're saying SE is too incompetent to think for themselves? Devs should be able to interpret what players say they want and what they actually want.

it's as if you expect all players to be highly trained and experienced game designers.

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in that I have ZERO expectations from players when it comes to design decisions because at the end of the day they are users and don't always know what they are asking.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Snip...

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I don't disagree with any of this, and would actually be excited if this got implemented. I'm not sure what I have said in this thread that would indicate otherwise. The comment you quoted was in reference to NMs specifically.

I look at the silver lining in all of this. Eventually with hundreds of people teleporting to every spawn with a lot getting nothing they'll eventually run out of gil. 500 people teleporting to a 600 gil location is an instant 300k loss for the server so I wonder how long it'll take...