NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Because thief was going to be the class anyway. thats kind of what you can infer from that.

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The class behind the job means nothing, you are the job not the class :P. THF would probably come in much later though, I can't imagine a class to be level 15 in to match 30 rogue. Ninja would be 30 rogue and 15 THM most probably, but without the new classes, what would THF be with 30 rogue? :P

They are working on the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Wait... Why would there need to be a Thieves Guild? Jobs don't have Guilds...

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You're confusing the concept of an in-game guild with the idea of a thieves' guild, which is not exclusive to final fantasy. Fantasy tends to show the thieves' guild as a criminal (or at the least morally-questionable) organization. Think along the lines of the Thieves' Guild in Oblivion, whose existence was generally seen as a myth for a good chunk of the storyline. It was a group that was so secretive people doubted their existence, and that's the sort of angle that would work for a thieves' guild in Eorzea.

Not your standard marauder's guild with banners, but the type of organization you'd have to look real hard for to actually find. Not state-sanctioned, but independent and solely for story purposes. Besides, I'm sure some individuals would get a kick out of being part of a job storyline where you're either finding treasure to prove your skills or sticking it to "the man" by stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

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Im sorry that really didn't make any sense to me at all. The base class Rogue would instead have been named Thief, the only thing that they changed from the original plan was the name. it would of just been tHF> nin instead of rog>nin.

I still think Thieves should use boomerangs but hey thats me! As far as thf coming from two other classes i'm not sure. Every iteration of thief just has that base class feel to it. you get to steal, and do damage, poison or debuff, but to do more you change jobs, thats how its always been and how they designed rogue. If I had to say Ninja I'd say acn, because debuffs,poison, it fits the theme. Thf if I must say um.. maybe glad for better weapons training? Not really sure with what we currently have.

Id love to be thief in title I just like the thief for well RP reasons I guess, but since rogue is basically thief class, I cant complain, it should be well done and be pretty cool . I hope its mp and tp management....a guy can dream >.>

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Originally Posted by Nalien

it's a generalization of what the Class is, in this case someone who uses poisons; a rouge. They do that so that they can leave Classes open to as many Jobs as possible, Rouge => Thief is no different than Thaumaturge/Gladiator/Marauder => Dark Knight, or any potential Jobs you could fit onto the current Classes. They've always gone with Jobs being the popularized core (sorry Tactics fans) Final Fantasy Jobs, they were never going to make the Thief the Class just so we could go "JUST LIKE FINAL FANTASY I HURHUR!".

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Rogues are dishonest... basically thieves or con men. They have little to do with poisons or even actually killing anybody. Most classes or characters that deal with poisons are called Assassin's. WoW is the only rogue I know of that uses tons of poison.

You're really grasping at the straws of hope and I understand it. But it's called Rogue and frankly.. it really doesn't matter what it's called as long as it plays like a thief anyway.

So wait: IF they called the Rogue a THF, then people would be happy...even if not a single skill/attack/action was changed....but they call it Rogue, give a valid reason why they decided to call it that, and people are upset?

You got the class/role you wanted

A rose by any other name man....

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Originally Posted by LoLo

I guess you never visited Uldah, and how all the leaders steal and murder people in power and weak citizens. But a Thief is impossible to place in this world? lol

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Right, we should legalize robbing, blackmailing and death-threatening because politicians do that. Wait a minute...

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

So wait: IF they called the Rogue a THF, then people would be happy...even if not a single skill/attack/action was changed....but they call it Rogue, give a valid reason why they decided to call it that, and people are upset?

You got the class/role you wanted

A rose by any other name man....

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You know it's always the little details that get sweat here. But maybe that just means there isn't a bunch of big stuff to be concerned about (or its ignored) who knows. lol

Also when you put it so simply like that it sounds even more ridiculous. All this fuss over a name

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Originally Posted by Nalien

They've always gone with Jobs being the popularized core (sorry Tactics fans) Final Fantasy Jobs, they were never going to make the Thief the Class just so we could go "JUST LIKE FINAL FANTASY I HURHUR!".

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They've always done that...because the base was already designed in 1.0 by the previous team.
Nothing can stop the new team from doing differently

this has completely destroyed my faith in this game. they would rather do fan wank than stuff that makes sense.

People really want their cake and want to eat it, too... judging just from the video Square released the rogue class is a DD class. And the Ninja Job is a DD Job. Not unlike lancer/Dragoon or pugilist/Monk. This means it's got DD down pat. So what would you do with a Thief Job? Can't be a tank without drastically changing rogue through Job abilities. Could be support, but I have a feeling rogue will have that covered in all the Thief sort of ways, or maybe Ninja. Oh, before it's called out that Ninja is going to be a tank, Ninja was never a tank. Your one and only reference to Ninjas as tanks is actually a perversion of one line of their spells originally meant to keep them safe from aggro. That's it, just Utsusemi. Ninja in XI had no innate enmity generation as was present in the actual tank jobs.

People are moaning over the name? Seriously? You guys have way too much time on your hands. SE could probably give you everything you wanted and you'd still find room to complain about it!

It's worth mentioning that I have only the tiniest of issues with the addition of Rogues and Ninjas... and that's getting a party. Right now, the queue for DPS jobs is already insanely high which makes getting groups as a Rogue or Ninja all the more difficult. My only concern is that right now I have to wait a good 40 minutes to get a group on anything other than healer or tank as it is, so I can only imagine how bad it will be when everyone is trying to level their rogues.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Right now, the queue for DPS jobs is already insanely high which makes getting groups as a Rogue or Ninja all the more difficult. My only concern is that right now I have to wait a good 40 minutes to get a group on anything other than healer or tank as it is, so I can only imagine how bad it will be when everyone is trying to level their rogues.

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Wow, someone with a real issue ?!
Did you lost your way ? :p

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

It's worth mentioning that I have only the tiniest of issues with the addition of Rogues and Ninjas... and that's getting a party. Right now, the queue for DPS jobs is already insanely high which makes getting groups as a Rogue or Ninja all the more difficult. My only concern is that right now I have to wait a good 40 minutes to get a group on anything other than healer or tank as it is, so I can only imagine how bad it will be when everyone is trying to level their rogues.

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My cure for the dilemma would be to wait till the hype is over and then try out the class. That's what I did when arcanist was released. I started leveling arcanist when most of the summoners/scholars were already 50.

So, S-E's solution to excessive DD queue times is to release... another DD job.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

People really want their cake and want to eat it, too...

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well yeah what is the point of getting cake and not eating it. I really hate when people use that stupid saying

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Your one and only reference to Ninjas as tanks is actually a perversion of one line of their spells originally meant to keep them safe from aggro. That's it, just Utsusemi. Ninja in XI had no innate enmity generation as was present in the actual tank jobs.

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to start with because XI had support jobs they didnt need the enmity generation, they could get it from Warrior with Provoke. they did get tanking emnity buildup abilities later.

to drive your point let me think. PLD is a tank class in XI and barely had any enmity buildup of their own till much later. the ones they did fell short of Provoke which is not even a PLD ability. this changed when NIN also got more of its own.


as for NIN being tank. they could do it easily

since you want to go on your little rants about what jobs were and werent in XI. technically RDM wasn't a healer and neither was SCH but the players used them for it. and also till they screwed with the RDM traits they could also effectivally tank.

this is a different game. my only gripe with it is one that has been brought up already. we have too many DPS already the DPS outnumber the tanks and healers by a pretty big margin. however they could easily announce more classes and jobs before the E3 is over or even wait and surprise us when 2.4 is released. we don't know what they will do. heck look at patch 2.28 it had a lot more than most were expecting in it and it wasnt even a major patch

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Your one and only reference to Ninjas as tanks is actually a perversion of one line of their spells originally meant to keep them safe from aggro. That's it, just Utsusemi. Ninja in XI had no innate enmity generation as was present in the actual tank jobs.

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You either didn't play Ninja or FFXI in general because it's patently clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

Ninja had a number of Enmity-generating abilities such as Slow, Paralyze, Blind, and the Elemental Wheel. Lousy Ninja tanks would rely solely on Provoke for Enmity but like most things in that game if you wanted to be good you had to expend effort and Gil.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Ninja had a number of Enmity-generating abilities such as Slow, Paralyze, Blind, and the Elemental Wheel.

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By that definition, every DPS should be tanks because damage generates enmity.
And perhaps you forgot that losing shadows actually make you lose enmity.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

PLD is a tank class in XI and barely had any enmity buildup of their own till much later.

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Shield Bash lvl15 : Approximately half the enmity of Provoke
Sentinel lvl 30: Same enmity as Provoke and doubles the enmity of every skills and spells for 30s, while reducing incoming damage and thus, enmity loss
Flash lvl37 : little less than Provoke
And, of course, a large amount of enmity generated via Curing.

It's far more than what Ninja had

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

as for NIN being tank. they could do it easily

since you want to go on your little rants about what jobs were and werent in XI. technically RDM wasn't a healer and neither was SCH but the players used them for it. and also till they screwed with the RDM traits they could also effectivally tank.

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The difference here is that the job was always intended as a DPS, and was never intended to be a tank. Take away Utsusemi and they're a squishy mess, which is why several fights actually REQUIRED a Paladin tank because the mob would strip shadows instantly. Paladin could fit in almost any situation, Ninjas were a far more situational tank.

As for Red Mages, they had native healing skill and access to cure potency gear. They were also given additional tools to bolster their role as support, meaning they could take the role as a support healer on top of their basic enfeebling talents. Ninja was never given any enmity gear aside from a handful of pieces which were multi-class, unlike the 'real' tanks, Warrior and Paladin. It wasn't until long after they'd cemented themselves as dodge tanks that SE caved in and provided a few extra bonuses on their gear.

As for the laughable idea that they could 'do it easily', no they couldn't. Until later levels they were heavily reliant on a Thief's Trick Attack ability to hold aggro or Provoke spam. They could deal decent damage, but certainly not enough to hold off a Black Mage's nukes. And considering most geared for tanking, it reduced their DPS considerably, favouring HP and evasion. Later they had more tools at their disposal, but it's still exceptionally easy to rip aggro from a Ninja moreso than a Paladin simply because they don't have the enmity addition that real tanks get.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

By that definition, every DPS should be tanks because damage generates enmity.
And perhaps you forgot that losing shadows actually make you lose enmity.

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That addition was actually added at a later date, when they tried to discourage Ninja tanking. Before that, no enmity was lost from shadows, until something actually dealt damage to you.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

By that definition, every DPS should be tanks because damage generates enmity.

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If said DPS jobs had damage avoidance/mitigation abilities such as Evasion/Parry at rank A- or two levels of Utsusemi then sure. Struggling to think of any aside from Dancer though right now, which I also used as a tank, maybe you could help out.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And perhaps you forgot that losing shadows actually make you lose enmity.

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If you're trying to appear smart there you failed hard considering you lose way more Cumulative Enmity by taking Damage than you do from losing one shadow.

Cumulative Enmity Loss

Damage Taken: CE Loss = 1800 × Damage Taken ÷ Maximum HP
Taking damage while under the effect of Mana Wall : CE Loss = 180 per hit
Utsusemi Shadow Image Lost: CE Loss = 25
Being Enfeebled (Including Resists): CE Loss = 80

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

If said DPS jobs had damage avoidance/mitigation abilities such as Evasion/Parry at rank A- or two levels of Utsusemi then sure. Struggling to think of any aside from Dancer though right now, which I also used as a tank, maybe you could help out.

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Yeah, I should have tanked on Corsair, Thief and Samurai too. Oh, and Monk for Guard. Or Puppetmaster for Evasion B with lots of Evasion Bonus.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

well yeah what is the point of getting cake and not eating it. I really hate when people use that stupid saying

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"You can't have your cake and eat it too" It means you can either have a cake or eat it. If you eat it, then you no longer have the cake. So I think perhaps you have misunderstood this saying :P

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yeah, I should have tanked on Corsair, Thief and Samurai too. Oh, and Monk for Guard. Or Puppetmaster for Evasion B with lots of Evasion Bonus.

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Again, in trying to appear smart you're making yourself look a moron.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Again, in trying to appear smart you're making yourself look a moron.

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I don't know, those are valid points. And yes, not only have I played XI, I'd also seen enough ninja tanks to know that I never wanted to be one. There always had to be someone ready to off-tank when their shadows were down. Always. I even tried ninja solo and... it's alot more work than when I played paladin. I have to envy AND feel sorry for people forced to tank as ninja in XI. Which is why I'm glad XIV's Ninja isn't falling into that trap.

I love how people make assumptions. Look at the facts, classes are ff14 specific and jobs are ff legacy. THF will be a job not a class - that's why a guild won't work. Most likely to be added to rogue class when hybrid roles are implemented in the future, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Again, in trying to appear smart you're making yourself look a moron.

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So stop claiming that Evasion or Parry is what makes a tank...
Utsusemi allowed Ninja to mitigate enough damage so that healer could heal them, /WAR allowed them to build enough enmity cause they didn't have ANY generating enmity tool by themselves when compared to other DPS.
Even DRK had more enmity generating abilities.

I think 双剣士 means "twin swordsman" or a "dual wielding swordsman". It's pronounced "sōkenshi" (assuming I'm even right). "シーフ" (shīfu) represented the job know to us as "thief" in the previous games.

Those who are claiming there can't be a "thieves guild" because it wouldn't fit into the game has got to be the silliest thing I've read (well no not really this entire discussion is silly). A game with a guild for rogues could have just as well has one for thieves. I think they choose "rogue" because it fits better. Then again I'm as clueless as all you so go ahead an ignore me.

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Originally Posted by Flowen_Shiva

I love how people make assumptions. Look at the facts, classes are ff14 specific and jobs are ff legacy. THF will be a job not a class - that's why a guild won't work. Most likely to be added to rogue class when hybrid roles are implemented in the future, in my opinion.

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It's not assumptions. Yoshida explained that he wanted Thief to be a class, but it appeared weird to have a "Thieve's guild" so the name was changed. But Rogue is everything that Thief was.
Actually, he could have made a secret Thieve's guild, than you could have entered with a password to the right person, but I don't know why he didn't go that way.

Grizzlebeard - NIN was never supposed to be a tank in FF11. It was created to be a versatile DD - debuffs, damage mitigation, ranged attacks. Many dd jobs have damage mitigation abilities, NIN's abilities were just exploited by players, mainly because in certain fights utsusemi was broken good but also because of the enmity in the game was nothing like FF14 - anyone could get hate on 11 were as 14 made tank skills come with large enmity boosts

when everybody will want to level it up that will be tough on DF.... only DPS

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

If said DPS jobs had damage avoidance/mitigation abilities such as Evasion/Parry at rank A- or two levels of Utsusemi then sure. Struggling to think of any aside from Dancer though right now, which I also used as a tank, maybe you could help out.

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By your explanation, MNK/NIN should have been a tank.
Enmity generating ability : Boost (Check)
Mitigation skills : B+ Evasion, A- Guard, Utsusemi from /NIN (Check)

I wonder why we haven't seen that more

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's not assumptions. Yoshida explained that he wanted Thief to be a class, but it appeared weird to have a "Thieve's guild" so the name was changed. But Rogue is everything that Thief was.
Actually, he could have made a secret Thieve's guild, than you could have entered with a password to the right person, but I don't know why he didn't go that way.

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Yes he wants a thief class because it wouldn't be final fantasy without one, but thief is a traditional final fantasy job, and therefore would fit into the game as we know it as a job, not a class. So to fit into the system they have created in FF14, they make rogue the class. Makes perfect sense, I bet they add thief job in the future

NinJa will be my main Job now thank you Yoshi P

Except he didn't give that explanation when specifically justifying why the class wasn't named "Thief".
If he hadn't say anything, I'd agree that THF could still be revealed later

wonder if the af will be ilv50/55 or higher since default for your class should be at least 100 or even higher considering ct2 will give oils and sands when 2.4 arrives. Also relic the same way including atma grind and so on or will it be higher as well?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

By your explanation, MNK/NIN should have been a tank.
Enmity generating ability : Boost (Check)
Mitigation skills : B+ Evasion, A- Guard, Utsusemi from /NIN (Check)

I wonder why we haven't seen that more

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DRK - dreadspikes, drain
MNK - guard, dodge, chakra, hp boost
SAM - seigan/third eye
THF - high evasion and perfect dodge

Could go on..

Conclusion - DD have damage mitigation/avoidance abilities doesn't mean they are designed to be a tank. And for the record, in today's ff11 MNK is used as a tank most of the time lol

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Originally Posted by Laraul

Those who are claiming repeating what Yoshi said, that there can't be a "thieves guild" because it wouldn't fit into the game ...

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fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except he didn't give that explanation when specifically justifying why the class wasn't named "Thief".
If he hadn't say anything, I'd agree that THF could still be revealed later

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The only thing that was said in regards to thief was a) He didn't feel a thieves guild fitted into the game b) the rogues originated from thieves.
I dunno I could still see thief becoming a job, with specifics like steal, treasure hunter, maybe the enmity controlling abilities from 11. One can hope I guess, I miss my Mandau!

We'll get THF job at a later point I think. It's just like Arcanist which leads to two different jobs (Scholar, Summoner).
I guess they would name the class "Thief" if this wouldn't be the case.
Maybe we'll get more information about it on the long way to patch 2.4

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Does it really matter whether it's called Thief, Rogue, or Super Fast Slicey Dicey man? It's like... the same thing.

Also if they wanted to make it dex well.. It wouldn't be that hard. Just make Dex part of its damage formula instead of STR. The description is just text information that can be changed, the actual damage formula is all that would really matter and they had to make that when they made the class/job. It could use int for damage and swing a sword if they wanted it to.

But I do agree with the idea of STR since thats what we have so far. It will probably share dungeon gear with monk or something. Dunno i'm more curious about the mudra skills.

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People aren't complaining because the class isn't called Thief. People are complaining that there won't be a Thief job in the game. Job. Not class. Job. Do you understand now?