Marriage Quest finally on the horizon! Yay!

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

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Marriage

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Saw the thread title, didn't read a single post, but I'm just popping in to tell OP you were asking for it and you know exactly what I'm talking about.

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Asking for what? This?

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

Not the OP who shot first though.. Someone mentioned same sex and then everyone went crazy with trying to prove one another's argument wrong. Dropping the original point of this topic.

Lock will be soon enough, how sad it is we cannae discuss anything here without infighting and defensiveness.

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Really and truly whose fault is that?
Yoshi did absolutely no favors with that "there'll be backlash" comment. He never should have said that as it's not true concerning NA and EUR as 2 other big name AAA MMO's have proven that. Of course the man only looks at WoW and FFXI so of course he wouldn't know

Good chance same-sex isn't going to be implemented even with the protest

Could we also stop pretending that asking for same sex marriage is a "America" or just "Western" thing?

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Sixteen countries now have the freedom to marry for same-sex couples nationwide (Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Canada, South Africa, Norway, Sweden, Portugal, Iceland, Argentina, Denmark, France, Brazil, Uruguay, and New Zealand - plus Britain), while two others have regional or court-directed provisions enabling same-sex couples to share in the freedom to marry (Mexico and the United States).

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Could we also stop pretending that asking for same sex marriage is a "America" or just "Western" thing?

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hmmm no East Asian countries.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

hmmm no East Asian countries.

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So what? So the hang up is an East Asian thing... seems to me like acceptance is in most hemispheres. So it's not "us" that has a "thing" it's "them".

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Originally Posted by jars

yes lets already act the victim

there are definitely wrong opinions. cliven bundy's opinion on slavery is wrong. your opinion on marriage is wrong.

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opinions can be wrong? what? doesn't that violate the very definition of an opinion? facts can be wrong. opinions can't be wrong. opinions can be generally accepted by society or generally frowned upon by society, but they can't be "wrong." I have nothing to say on the topic of this thread, I just couldn't help myself on this one comment.

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Originally Posted by Tule

Ok, so because some people who have legitimate reasons for being wary act a little annoying that means their stance is wrong? Because that is what is being attacked. It isn't "calm down, you're right" it is "calm down and now I don't want you to have what you want".

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The comment quoted was completely nonconstructive and provokes the opposite opinion to counter. Which in fact it did. Its comments like that which lead threads like this to being locked, ever since Beta Phase 1.

Their first comment which I intentionally didn't quote was their legitimate opinion.

My opinion as far as side on the topic didn't even come into play. I have no side on the matter.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

So what? So the hang up is an East Asian thing... seems to me like acceptance is in most hemispheres. So it's not "us" that has a "thing" it's "them".

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I don't know....... maybe the fact that this game was made in East Asia by people with traditions different from the west might has some factor as to why they tread lightly on this subject?

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Originally Posted by LoLo

I don't know....... maybe the fact that this game was made in East Asia by people with traditions different from the west might has some factor as to why they tread lighting on this subject?

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Great for them- they have no problem putting women in skimpy outfits... so they have no problem offending the Middle Eastern sensibility that would have women covered up. Why would an international player base kowtow to provincial and outdated social attitudes? I doubt anyone would tolerate slavery in this game.

It's an international audience, so get with it. If it was a domestic product, then it would make sense.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Great for them- they have no problem putting women in skimpy outfits... so they have no problem offending the Middle Eastern sensibility that would have women covered up. Why would an international player base kowtow to provincial and outdated social attitudes? I doubt anyone would tolerate slavery in this game.

It's an international audience, so get with it. If it was a domestic product, then it would make sense.

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You are going extremely left field and I'm going to exit this conversation with you.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I doubt anyone would tolerate slavery in this game.

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You mean like a system where you would pay real money to for NPCs that become "yours" that go out and do stuff for you that has become known as "farming?"

This thread is still up?

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

You mean like a system where you would pay real money to for NPCs that become "yours" that go out and do stuff for you that has become known as "farming?"

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You mean hiring retainers? You can hire retainers.... that's hiring someone.

To the above- I don't mean to go left field. It's just annoying. It's a product marketed to an international audience - not "For Asians, By Asians"... so, I as a customer find that they choose to put something completely unnecessary into the game and make a cultural point about it being a certain way. This way happens to be a very offensive way to a certain group of people.

There is zero reason for this.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

You mean like a system where you would pay real money to for NPCs that become "yours" that go out and do stuff for you that has become known as "farming?"

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Retainers aren't slaves. You pay them ventures to be your personal assistant.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

You mean hiring retainers? You can hire retainers.... that's hiring someone.

To the above- I don't mean to go left field. It's just annoying. It's a product marketed to an international audience - not "For Asians, By Asians"... so, I as a customer find that they choose to put something completely unnecessary into the game and make a cultural point about it being a certain way. This way happens to be a very offensive way to a certain group of people.

There is zero reason for this.

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Ok, it's just that you scared me off with that last comment and I felt you are taking this too serious.

Btw, it isn't marketed to a international audience, it is sold to a international market and has heavy references to a Japanese role playing game that caters to Japanese players that have oversea fans.

Whether or not same-sex marriage is implemented, some people will be unhappy. However, if it is implemented, then the people who don't like it have a simple solution.

1. Don't agree to a same-sex marriage with anyone.
2. Don't attend anyone else's same-sex marriage.

And voila! Now you have virtually no exposure to it, and can easily pretend it doesn't exist. However, if it isn't implemented, then what will the people who wanted it be able to do?

1. Make a new character of a different gender. Good luck if you're on a highly popular sever like Balmung. Even more good luck if you have a basic account subscription, and are only allowed one character per server.
2. Use a Fantasia to switch your existing character's gender. Now your name may not fit, or you may not like how your character looks anymore. You might end up wanting to change back, using up another Fantasia (if you have one), but maybe that will invalidate your marriage - so what do you choose?
3. Quit and go play another game.

None of those 'solutions' are as straightforward, and I think it's unfair to restrict content like that. LGB people pay to play this game, the same as straight people do, so Square Enix should treat them equally, on the basis of customer service even if they don't care about the human rights side of things.

I think it would be better if they made your devotion to a deity more relevant before tackling something like this.

Oh wow. Well, I started this topic around 24 hours ago. I guess I should have known the possible risk of it becoming another huge debate thread over marriage, etc. I haven't been able to read all 18 pages...(woah!?)... but I get the impression in skimming it seems that things are much more civil than they have been in the past. Meaning for the most part - reasonable, non-flame-war chat. So that's a good thing ^^

I don't want to debate the subject. I do think the marriage quest should be available to everyone (in real life and in game life). But that's not why I made the topic. Personally, I was just excited that this fun aspect to the game (for me) will find its way to us soon enough. I don't even consider myself an RP'er at all!

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I think it would be better if they made your devotion to a deity more relevant before tackling something like this.

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What? You do know the dominant religion of Japan is Shintoism, followed closely by Buddhism and Confucianism. Christianity is a distant minority that used mainly as a source of unofficial holidays (like Christmas), and it's Christianity that has issues with same-sex marriage. The Japanese have problems with same-sex marriage for completely different reasons that literally are alien to the Christian mindset.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

What? You do know the dominant religion of Japan is Shintoism, followed closely by Buddhism and Confucianism. Christianity is a distant minority that used mainly as a source of unofficial holidays (like Christmas), and it's Christianity that has issues with same-sex marriage. The Japanese have problems with same-sex marriage for completely different reasons that literally are alien to the Christian mindset.

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No... I mean like worshipping Nophica, etc. I think they should make your in-game deity selection more meaningful before something like this....

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

The comment quoted was completely nonconstructive and provokes the opposite opinion to counter. Which in fact it did. Its comments like that which lead threads like this to being locked, ever since Beta Phase 1.

Their first comment which I intentionally didn't quote was their legitimate opinion.

My opinion as far as side on the topic didn't even come into play. I have no side on the matter.

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Ok, so what does that have to do with the comment you quoted. You took out a single part of what I said an replied to it? Out of context quoting because? My point is yes those people are annoying, but they are right. And for some unkown reason you derailed the topic even further by saying so what they are still annoying.

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Originally Posted by Rahzel

That's not reinforcing your argument against Japan having more conservative values in regards to sexuality. Are you seriously trying to generalize an entire society's core values based on its animated/drawn fetishist pornography? Pornography that is mostly intended for heterosexuals, including yuri and yaoi. What makes it so appealing to them is the taboo nature of "forbidden love."

Even trap characters in more mainstream harem series (Stein's; Gate, BakaTest, Hagenai, etc) are only treated as gag characters and never as a serious potential love interest.

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Judging a whole nation, no. But just like anime and mangas, games are another form of cultural media. And being gag and jokes DOES mean they are okay with it lol after all we talking about a GAME for ENTERTAINMENT and not some government family program lol. And IDK where you got the porn stuff, I was talking about non porn stuff the whole time. (Yaoi, Yuri etc etc does not equal porn at all.)

Japan may be super close minded about it in a way you claim it to be lol, but media wise they are obviously not. And FFXIV is a game AKA part of that cultural stuff. Also none of what I see was as "forbidden love" as you claim it be (well maybe super old stores from 20 years ago XD, but FFXIV is 2013-14 XP), except one where a brother loved a sister. Other than that it never was such a big deal in an anime/manga/game I encounted it in.

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Originally Posted by Jewelfox

Please tell me they're not going to have gendered restrictions on who can get married. >_>

Straight people flaunt their sexuality enough without having yet another thing they can hold over everyone else.

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Wow..... just Wow..... I've seen more homosexual people flaunt their homosexuality with things such as gay pride, we demand homosexual this and that etc etc than straight people flaunting.....heterosexuality? And they are somehow rubbing it in? I don't care if someone is homosexual but this comment, I don't even....

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

So basically, your argument against is that ignorant things will spew of the mouth holes of ignorant people. I say that's a reason for.

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I'm not actually arguing against it. Like I said multiple times, I'm for it, I want to see it. Im just trying to voice a possible reason of the other side and point out its unfair the way some people are dismissing what they dont agree with. Its ironic, people want it to be accepted and for their own views to be accept, but they arent accepting someone else's view that differs from their own.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I disagree.

No one jumped all over Rift when they added marriage with no gender restrictions.

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AFAIK Rift is not a japanese game, different culture

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Great for them- they have no problem putting women in skimpy outfits... so they have no problem offending the Middle Eastern sensibility that would have women covered up. Why would an international player base kowtow to provincial and outdated social attitudes? I doubt anyone would tolerate slavery in this game.

It's an international audience, so get with it. If it was a domestic product, then it would make sense.

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Dude... Comparing this to slavery was taking this too far...

T
O
O

F
A
R

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

You really have to look at it from the other foot. There is a large group of people who would be upset if there WERE same sex marriages in this game. So it works both ways.

I, however, don't care. It's just a game and baring any special effects won't even bother with it. People can marry whoever they want in my book (not that anyone cares what my opinions are~).

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Okay, but why would it bother them if a fictional story allowed same sex marriage? The whole point of playing final "fantasy" is to escape to a reality that does not take place in our world, that magic, monsters and glowing crystals peek around every corner -- it bears no parallel to our own reality. Even my mother, who is staunchly against gay marriage felt it was ridiculous, "If you wanted to play a game that realistic, than you shouldn't even be playing a game called Final Fantasy." It'd be like picking 50 shades of gray and getting offended that the book had mature content in it.

It doesn't only bother those who are upset about feeling discriminated against, but it bothers those who feel the development is becoming contrived and driven by clandestine messages and views from those hidden behind the curtains, and I can bet my bottom dollar that the amount of players against 3rd party influence, overshadow the ones for it by a long shot, and that the ones sitting in their folded chairs with their arms crossed saying "Nope, don't want it." don't even play the game. I don't know about you, but I play this game to get away from all that, and the moment I start to feel like Big Brother is winking at me every time I log in, will be the day that I stop playing. I may only be one subscriber, but I can surely say that I won't be the only one -- And Square can't say we didn't warn them, because the evidence is falling like rain, and they are simply choosing not to notice.

I'd only be interested in the marriage system if there was a perk to it, such as being able to summon your partner and have him or her teleport to you freely or cheaply. I really, really hope SE considers those sorts of small perks to make the system less bland.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

Okay, but why would it bother them if a fictional story allowed same sex marriage?

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No idea, I'm not them.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

The whole point of playing final "fantasy" is to escape to a reality that does not take place in our world, that magic, monsters and glowing crystals peek around every corner -- it bears no parallel to our own reality.

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Isn't it possible in this other reality that there is no such thing as same sex marriage?


Again, I'm all for same sex marriages (I don't care, honestly). I'm just bringing up counter points to stuff you're saying since I'm sure that's what the other side of the fence is thinking. It's not always black and white to other people like it is for us.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

No idea, I'm not them.



Isn't it possible in this other reality that there is no such thing as same sex marriage?


Again, I'm all for same sex marriages (I don't care, honestly). I'm just bringing up counter points to stuff you're saying since I'm sure that's what the other side of the fence is thinking. It's not always black and white to other people like it is for us.

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Isn't it possible in this other reality that there is no such thing as different race marriage? I'd like to see them take a stance against black/white marriage. The point is this is a video game, and unless there is a good reason it should all be possible.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

No idea, I'm not them.



Isn't it possible in this other reality that there is no such thing as same sex marriage?


Again, I'm all for same sex marriages (I don't care, honestly). I'm just bringing up counter points to stuff you're saying since I'm sure that's what the other side of the fence is thinking. It's not always black and white to other people like it is for us.

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A developer on the Beta forums clearly stated that homosexuality is welcomed in world of Eorzea, and then went on to explain that they ultimately decided against it because they didn't want to offend anyone. Again, I'm also largely indifferent about the equality part because it's just a game, (But would certainly lean toward catering for everyone for simply the sake of a happy playerbase.) but when it's only driven in because so-and-so in his fancy lawn chair says "I don't like it." Then I begin to have a problem with it.

If the game can't develop something objectively within the suspension of the reality for their game, than they should just leave it out altogether. Otherwise you're unfairly expatriating a whole community of players without so much as justifying it within the context of the game. It's not only a back hand to their face, it's a back hand to their face in front of everyone.

I got married to my rl husband in game in ffxi, back when it was lottery weddings. It was very cute.

whats the benefit of this? im fairly confident it will be a feature more for lalafell characters since the majority off emote users and vanity wearers on my world are lala, lol. do female characters still get everything they ask for and get half your gil/inventory upon divorce? is a prenup service planned?




realistically 80% of marriages would be same sex because of all the guys with female characters too lol

moon cats and sun cats don't belong together

just ain't right in the eyes o the twelve

also communism

FFXI only has traditional marriage and really nobody complained over there really.

as a male playing a female character i suppose i will have to try something sneaky to marry my gf playing a female character, either makeing alts with almost the exact same names or trying something with fantasia

Lol I just had a thought that maybe some people are making a fuss over this because they play the opposite sex, and therefore want to marry the opposite sex because in real life it is the opposite sex and in reality the person playing the other character of the opposite sex is a person of the same sex...

TIME PARADOX

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Originally Posted by Zumi

FFXI only has traditional marriage and really nobody complained over there really.

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Really, no complaints?

I was playing 11 when they implemented it, even had a character participate in one.

Quick google search:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-Sex-Marriages
http://ffxivrealm.com/threads/marria...in-ffxiv.1194/
http://gaygamer.net/2013/08/fan-bann...-realm-reborn/

Before I say anything.

No-one at Sqaure Enix is trying to discriminate, what they're trying to do is find what's best for their players AND their company as a whole.
That is something you must respect, as negative feedback is always harder to deal with than positive.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

Okay, but why would it bother them if a fictional story allowed same sex marriage?

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(This isn't my opinion, this is Yoshida's however I completely respect it)

Yoshi-P already posted on the forums declaring it a 'delicate matter' to be discussed internally in the future with carefull consideration for many reasons;

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"As for same-sex marriage, this is an extremely controversial topic that has been under discussion in the MMO world for the past few years. First we would like to start out with opposite-sex marriage, and then consider the feedback from our players in order to make a careful decision.I can’t say whether or not it will be possible at this point in time. I’d like to keep dialog open with our players as we deliberate the matter." - Naoki Yoshida

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The reasons for this are most likely the development team considering;

•Varying Cultural Nuances
•Laws/traditions/statistics per country
•Chinese Version Launch (HUGE issues here)
•International Press Response (Could exacerbate the issue)
•Player Response (Minimal issue, easily quelled)
•Square Enix's company image (as a whole extremely important to the dev team)

From a bit of research Japan itself being a country that doesn't condone or condemn homosexuality prefers a "What you do behind closed doors is your business" to most things including homosexual relationships.
Marriage however could attract bad-press or a negative response, as it breaks this non-written society expectancy by making a show of it.

As minimal a thing as a virtual marriage is, it has the potential to do damage as well.
As the topic is still in quite a lot of places a delicate taboo subject they have to consider first what is best for them as a company before appeasing the players interest.
One wrong decision could spell more trouble for the company than it's worth.


Either way the community as a whole will have to respect either decision and deal with it like mature adults (as unlikely as people are to do that).

(^ This is directed at everyone)

According to the quote, when it's released in 2.3 it won't be added at first (but most likely they'll add it later if things go fine)

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Originally Posted by Rex

Walked in here to see the OP, saw the most recent post..

this is already a mess and I'm just going to walk right back out. Have fun getting yet another marriage thread closed

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It's as inevitable as the sun-rising at this point, lol.

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Originally Posted by Tule

Ok, so what does that have to do with the comment you quoted. You took out a single part of what I said an replied to it? Out of context quoting because?

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Since 2.0 Beta Phase 1 there have been 100s of threads regarding Same Sex Marriage ingame. Past practice of everyone being locked and hidden due to overzealous opinions from both sides becoming uncivil and ill mannered.

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Originally Posted by Tule

I agree that LGBT people can get overzealous in their cause, but it is a just one.

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Originally Posted by Tule

My point is yes those people are annoying, but they are right.

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Being uncivil, using an untactful approach, and breaking forum etiquette is no excuse no matter how just or right a cause is.

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Originally Posted by Jewelfox

Straight people flaunt their sexuality enough without having yet another thing they can hold over everyone else.

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This comment is just as discriminating as many of its opposition.

Also see Shioban's post above.

Repeating again, I am neutral on the subject and it is a sensitive one here.

Walked in here to see the OP, saw the most recent post..

this is already a mess and I'm just going to walk right back out. Have fun getting yet another marriage thread closed