A party member has withdrawn...

Tested the "fix" this morning. 27 withdrawals before I got in.

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

Hello all,

As you know, when joining in progress for the Crystal Tower, the system displays the progress of the raid when attempting to join runs in progress. For example, "Progress: 1/4".

However, this will be adjusted for the Crystal Tower to always show the progress as 0/1 in patch 2.15.

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a bandaid fix......exactly like the idle AFK kick, it's kind of sad to see SE resort to these just to appease the whiners quickly

Issue still persists. People keep withdrawing until hey get any in progress run now.

Time for more drastic measure. Like removing any progress notifications at all. Don't let us know if the party we are joining is in progress or not. I understand this is a bigger change to the UI, but it's become pretty necessary now.

Seems like the players knew it wouldn't work even before it was implement how can the devs not :( ?

Even removing progress indication entirely won't solve the problem. They'll just drop out once the duty starts and they see for themselves. The ultimate fix would be 1) yes remove the progress indicator but 2) disallow simple quitting. If you go to quit it initiates the vote abandon and you can't quit without a majority vote. Though even that won't completely fix the problem because people will just pull their internet and DC.

Perhaps the entire system of having instanced dungeons is broken. I miss the old days of MMOs where you just had open dungeons and people came and went as they pleased. Where enemies scaled difficulty based on how many players were in the dungeon so that even if you're in there alone, you can make progress.

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Originally Posted by jellis41

Even removing progress indication entirely won't solve the problem. They'll just drop out once the duty starts and they see for themselves.

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This wouldn't bother me they would get a 30 minute timeout which would discourage the practice.

If they demand a kick or go deliberately AFK then a) report them b) if they do get kicked and flag back up for an in progress run... guess which alliance will have a space for a tank...

Why not just change the message from "A party member has withdrawn..." to "Joe Smith has withdrawn...." If they are named then we can just add them to our blacklist of people we dont want to party with. Eventually the fishers will be on so many blacklists they cant get parties.

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

Crystal Tower to always show the progress as 0/1 in patch 2.15.

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Does anyone actually think that this is going to make the tower a better experience with so many more people being 'locked in'?

The better solution would have been an in progress only option. The main reason that people see all the 'member withdrawn' messages is that players want the content they want and by the number of complaints, would obviously indicate it is not fresh dungeons.

the result of this will be that players will enter and see that the boss they wanted has already been beaten or that it is a 'fail' alliance and just afk until they get vote-kicked so they don't get the penalty.

SE should cater to what the players want on both sides of the issue. if the person wanted the entire dungeon, they would not select the 'in progress' option.

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Originally Posted by Sinaps

Why not just change the message from "A party member has withdrawn..." to "Joe Smith has withdrawn...." If they are named then we can just add them to our blacklist of people we dont want to party with. Eventually the fishers will be on so many blacklists they cant get parties.

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Unfortunatelly - blacklist doesn't work across servers nor (if I'm not mistaken) prohibits players from joining party you're in via DF even if they'd be on the same server ...

It's really pathetic seeing the "fix" having almost the zero (if not worse) impact on this behaviour - implement the increasing lockout after each withdraw: 5 minutes, 10, 20 , 40 - and problem is solved. Keep (revert to) progress display as it was before - rather that than morons joining fully in and then leaving. Sheesh - a bunch of players here can come up in few minutes with dozens 10 times better solutions that your useless "fixes" ...

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Issue still persists. People keep withdrawing until hey get any in progress run now.

Time for more drastic measure. Like removing any progress notifications at all. Don't let us know if the party we are joining is in progress or not. I understand this is a bigger change to the UI, but it's become pretty necessary now.

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How about a more drastic measure like not trying to force people who want to skip portions helping those who want the items from the first boss.

If everyone wanted to start from the beginning they wouldn't select in progress, now would they?

Removing the notifications won't help.

When you get one in progress, the window pops intantly. When not, it takes a few seconds to fill ranks.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

If everyone wanted to start from the beginning they wouldn't select in progress, now would they?

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"In progress" wasn't designed to fight a boss earlier and skip content.

It was designed for the following:
-Enter a run earlier when you don't have time for a full run
-To enter a run midway through to help groups that lost members along the way

The one players have made up because of CT is only the fault of the player, so the fix SE did is perfectly fine. It's pretty much the mentality of one apple ruins the bunch because it was players exploiting the fact they knew the progress of the run that allowed them to take advantage of a system that's designed to help other groups who are currently in a run. The "In progress" concept was not designed to selfishly help themselves to skip content and get the boss they want earlier.

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Originally Posted by HEC

Unfortunatelly - blacklist doesn't work across servers nor (if I'm not mistaken) prohibits players from joining party you're in via DF even if they'd be on the same server ......

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Too bad. So, blacklists won't work. Changing what shows up in notifications won't work. It seems like there are only 3 choices.

1. Leave it the way it is. Everyone but the fishing tanks are unhappy.
2. Make join in progress ONLY join in progress.
3. Make withdrawing or afk from duty finder have a penalty. (5 min seems reasonable) If they do this they should also add a 5 min penalty for withdrawl from an in progress duty that you just joined.

My vote would be for the 5 min penalty. It would preserve the original intent of join in progress and at least prevent the same fishing tank from trolling me 10 times in 30 seconds with the withdrawl message.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

How about a more drastic measure like not trying to force people who want to skip portions helping those who want the items from the first boss.

If everyone wanted to start from the beginning they wouldn't select in progress, now would they?

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It's not there so you can 'skip portions'. It's there so you can help others.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

How about a more drastic measure like not trying to force people who want to skip portions helping those who want the items from the first boss.

If everyone wanted to start from the beginning they wouldn't select in progress, now would they?

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I agree everyone should be able to skip any boss they like whenever they like.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

SE should cater to what the players want on both sides of the issue. if the person wanted the entire dungeon, they would not select the 'in progress' option.

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While I agree the devs should cater to both sides of the aisle, the button isn't there to be a free pass to skip 3/4 of the dungeon, despite how people abuse it.

It will be annoying having people afk-ing so they don't get a penalty. They should add a votekick penalty to the one votekicked. (Though that could end up being bad as well, I got into an in progress Haukke HM before, they told me they kicked the guy I replaced because he didn't have enough DPS, had two bards. Vote kicked for that reason and getting penalized for it would be horrid).

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Originally Posted by Aegis

It's not there so you can 'skip portions'. It's there so you can help others.

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the ideal world where everyone wants to help is a very nice concept. the reality is that more people want to skip portions which is made evident by the number of times the 'member withdrawn' is shown.

right or wrong, the player base wants to skip. These players pay the same amount as those who want to run the entire dungeon, and deserve the same consideration.

I do not believe that this change on how much progress, or even removing the progress is a good idea. I foresee that more people will be 'stuck' in parts they don't want and retaliate by sabotaging the entire run so that someone else takes the penalty or they get vote kicked. now instead of having 20 - 50 pop ups where people withdraw we will have more failed runs, delays due to backfilling pt slots and less game enjoyment.

After you hit cancel 4 or 5 times in a row just to troll people you should have a time-out.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

the ideal world where everyone wants to help is a very nice concept. the reality is that more people want to skip portions which is made evident by the number of times the 'member withdrawn' is shown.

right or wrong, the player base wants to skip. These players pay the same amount as those who want to run the entire dungeon, and deserve the same consideration.

I do not believe that this change on how much progress, or even removing the progress is a good idea. I foresee that more people will be 'stuck' in parts they don't want and retaliate by sabotaging the entire run so that someone else takes the penalty or they get vote kicked. now instead of having 20 - 50 pop ups where people withdraw we will have more failed runs, delays due to backfilling pt slots and less game enjoyment.

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So the 23 other players should be held hostage to the whims of one player? He does not pay as much as the others combined.

People dont seem to understand that in-progress was to be used to be willing to help groups that need a replacement, it was not meant to be used to skip half of a dungeon. Dungeons are meant to be completed start to finish, we cant and should not be making it easier for someone to jump in,fight 1 boss they want and then leave. Why is it that the english community is the only one that constantly tries to circumvent every system as a dirty advantage even when it disrupts other people. Can anyone tell me if this is an issue at all on jp servers?

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Originally Posted by Hazanko

Seriously now we have to join a ""crappy" raid and not know where/how far along we are? How is exactly fair to those who do takes the queue when it's something like 2/4... Well now I'll totally avoid CT, since I'm full 90 item level and have no need or point in stepping foot in that horrid place >.> Good Job SE on screwing up some of the latest content you came out with.... >.>

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Haha so you were a part of the problem (griefers who hit cancel if the in-progress CT is not at the boss you want) and you have the gall to complain about this?

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Originally Posted by Bufkus

Haha so you were a part of the problem (griefers who hit cancel if the in-progress CT is not at the boss you want) and you have the gall to complain about this?

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Funniest thing about it is that CT is only a horrid place because of people like him.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

So the 23 other players should be held hostage to the whims of one player? He does not pay as much as the others combined.

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I agree, which is why I mentioned that an 'in progress only' option would have been better. this way the 23 people can get the one other person who wants/accepts a full run and should one of those 23 get disconnected or leave for whatever reason, then someone who wants to skip can enter and help the others get the run completed.

in a debate, there are always at least two sides. the 'in progress only' option allows both sides to get what they want. the lack of progress indicator or this new diminished value of 0/1 just 'helps' one side and ignores the other.

is the spirit of 'helping' really accomplished by holding the one player to the whims of the other 23?

One fix would also to:
1/ Handle drops only after Acheron dies. All of them.
2/ Give stones rewards based on the number of bosses you defeated. 2/4 bosses only? 100 Philos and 25 mythos.
3/ Add a "join in progress only" option

This allows people who want to help / don't have 1 hour to make the full dungeon, to still be able to progress / help, while in the mean time removing the purpose of quitting when you got your drop or to only accept runs in progress to make quick stones.

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Originally Posted by Taliesin

One fix would also to:
1/ Handle drops only after Acheron dies. All of them.
2/ Give stones rewards based on the number of bosses you defeated. 2/4 bosses only? 100 Philos and 25 mythos.
3/ Add a "join in progress only" option

This allows people who want to help / don't have 1 hour to make the full dungeon, to still be able to progress / help, while in the mean time removing the purpose of quitting when you got your drop or to only accept runs in progress to make quick stones.

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problem with #1 that screws over anyone who D/Cs on Acheron, as well as gives an apparent incentive to fishing only, hoping to get in at acheron fight.

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Originally Posted by Taliesin

One fix would also to:
1/ Handle drops only after Acheron dies. All of them.
2/ Give stones rewards based on the number of bosses you defeated. 2/4 bosses only? 100 Philos and 25 mythos.
3/ Add a "join in progress only" option

This allows people who want to help / don't have 1 hour to make the full dungeon, to still be able to progress / help, while in the mean time removing the purpose of quitting when you got your drop or to only accept runs in progress to make quick stones.

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Philo's are already given per boss.

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Originally Posted by Raucent

problem with #1 that screws over anyone who D/Cs on Acheron, as well as gives an apparent incentive to fishing only, hoping to get in at acheron fight.

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You are right, that would be rude for people who disconnect. Maybe give them 5 min to come back prior to allowing a replacement?
And I might have been misunderstood. Drops would be lotted after each boss, but would fall in inventories just when Acheron dies. There would be no reason except farming Acheron coffer to look for this fight in particular

The only fix for this is make it blind 'In-progress' so the tanks can't see what the progress of the dungeon is OR remove or severely lower the myth reward. Until that is done I will continue fishing for easy CT clears for my 50 myth; simply because I can't stand to be in the same dungeon with you casuals for longer than 15min.

that makes more sense lotting after each boss with drops aquired after acheron, as far as the 5 mins, doesn't always work yesterday we had some FC ,members get hit with the 90k and didnt get back w/in the 5 mins.

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Originally Posted by Tazo

Until that is done I will continue fishing for easy CT clears for my 50 myth; simply because I can't stand to be in the same dungeon with you casuals for longer than 15min.

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Same here too, if you can't beat them, join them.

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Originally Posted by Taliesin

One fix would also to:
1/ Handle drops only after Acheron dies. All of them.

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This is a bad idea, and ENCOURAGES the fishing even more so.. to get 2/4 *minimum* and some to keep trying for 3/4.

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Originally Posted by Taliesin

2/ Give stones rewards based on the number of bosses you defeated. 2/4 bosses only? 100 Philos and 25 mythos.

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This is a bad idea, because now you are actively discouraging people from joining "in progress", leaving parties stranded for longer (philo/myth tomes are usually the driving factor anyways).

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Originally Posted by Taliesin

3/ Add a "join in progress only" option

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This idea keeps being brought up as a *compromise* and it is short sited and a terrible idea. How many times does it have to be debunked for people to stop bringing it up? This is not a design function of the game. SE didn't put "Join in progress" to let people skip bosses cause they feel like it, or they don't have time. If you don't have time DON'T DO THE DUNGEON, it is really that simple. Most people would love to skip to whatever boss they need to get whatever drop they need, but this is not how games are designed. You do the whole dungeon and earn your reward through completion. Join in progress is solely for the purpose of refilling stranded groups ranks, as to not have wasted 23 people's time/effort. Not only all that, but separate queues further lengthens times for BOTH QUEUES.

If it were a blind queue everyone would be on their way faster. Make join in progress still opt-in so people won't skip bosses they might need. Simple. Trying to argue based on jacknobs afking if they don't get where they want is stupid. I hope those people do join and afk, and get repeatedly reported, and swiftly banned. Also considering they'll get kicked, and rejoin a most likely starting group multiple times, it'd be hilarious how much time they are wasting trying to get 2/4 or 3/4 when they will have been able to complete with their first group by then. I believe people will start realizing its inefficiency (btw you can't vote kick first 5min of dungeon starting), and pull up their big boy/girl pants and start playing the game.

Quite frankly the real fix for the whole withdrawing thing would be to change the system so that if someone hits cancel, the team is NOT thrown out of the queue, but instead the withdrawee is quickly replaced by whoever is next in line.

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Originally Posted by MikoteAstra

How exactly will this fix the problem with the withdraw !

Once they see that they are not joining in progress party but in a new party witch will start from the begining they will withdraw as usual !

And i have to sit extra 40min plus pushing the start button for the dn !

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What????? People withdrawing from Duty when Duty ready for CT is because of this!??? THIS!? I never knew. I always thought it was broken or someone was talking to NPC or something.... I totally agree with the OP for making the person who withdraws face the 2 minutes lockout.

This new system is basically useless. I thought you'd now get always the same screen, i.e. you wouldn't know if you join a starting raid or one in progress.

Now there will be just less withdrawals for ongoing raids, starting a raid is still exactly the same 20-30 minutes wait until finally no one did withdraw at formup.

Issue: People keep withdrawing until they get an instance in progress for Crystal Tower Raid.

Solution given: Lets make it only say 0/1 for in progress, and say nothing for a Fresh Instance. This will stop people from knowing what boss the in progress group is on.

Resulting problem: Original issue was never addressed (being able to differentiate from 'in progress' and 'fresh' in the first place)

The cycle continues.
22 minutes and counting of withdraws.

Can we please stop with the altruistic notion that 'in progress' is only for rebuilding parties where people left. The only reason SE put it in there is to prevent the outcry that would happen without it.

if you couldn't add people after the run started, then a lot of runs would just fail with everyone complaining that they couldn't complete the run because of 'x' disconnected/got kicked/fell asleep...

People are acting like the gear they get is somehow better if they spent an hour in the dungeon versus someone who joined halfway through. While this may be your belief, it is not my reality.

the argument against in progress has one severe flaw: It is trying to mandate their desire above other people's choice. even to the extent that it is removing the ability to chose.

I will not comment on those from other countries, but I must admit I find it a little sad when US citizens are so determined to remove the freedom of choice from others.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

Can we please stop with the altruistic notion that 'in progress' is only for rebuilding parties where people left. The only reason SE put it in there is to prevent the outcry that would happen without it.

if you couldn't add people after the run started, then a lot of runs would just fail with everyone complaining that they couldn't complete the run because of 'x' disconnected/got kicked/fell asleep...

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So what youre saying is, they added "in progress" for rebuilding parties where people left.

The game is designed to run a dungeon from start to finish, in progress was added because this isn't always the reality and people WILL leave for whatever reason. This feature was used to replace those people, but abused by people trying to skip through dungeons. If this was intended, why doesn't this happen in JP servers? For whatever reason, people in US regions spend so much time and effort trying to figure out ways to NOT play the game.

Suicide speed runs,
withdrawl spam,
T2 enrage,
any other system circumventing crap is all stuff our region started

Just queued solo for CT: 11 mins to form an alliance, a further 1 hour and 7 mins of tanks declining before I actually got in. Great fucking fix SE.

How could you people not realise this would achieve nothing? If anything it's now even worse.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

Can we please stop with the altruistic notion that 'in progress' is only for rebuilding parties where people left. The only reason SE put it in there is to prevent the outcry that would happen without it.
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They just shouldn't show what kind of raid you join. Think most don't want to remove the feature that you can fill up raids in progress.

Of course SE would then forget to make sure if someone immediately leaves again that they would get a 30 minute DF penalty.

So glad I decided to level PLD ;)