Best in Slot for SMN after 2.1?

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Originally Posted by Kimahri123

oh I meant like what pieces in each slots.

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DTR Heavy BiS
Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Allagan Circlet of Casting
Summoner's Doublet
Allagan Gloves of Casting
Allagan Rope Belt of Casting
Summoner's Trousers
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Allagan Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting

CRT Heavy BiS
Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Summoner's Horn
Summoner's Doublet
Summoner's Ringbands
Allagan Rope Belt of Casting
Allagan Breeches of Casting
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Hero's Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting

CRT Heavy BiS w/ Allagan Circlet
Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Allagan Circlet of Casting
Summoner's Doublet
Summoner's Ringbands
Allagan Rope Belt of Casting
Allagan Breeches of Casting
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Hero's Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting

Torin, have you tried running more spell speed focused sets through your sim? I'm curious how they'd measure up with the other sets.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

Torin, have you tried running more spell speed focused sets through your sim? I'm curious how they'd measure up with the other sets.

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Yeah. I made a 'Worst in Slot' set that had a lot of spell speed. It was 2% dps lower than the BiS sets.

Came in just to report my findings.

Ran T4 with the DET heavy set and did about 180.

Ran another round with CRIT regular BiS set and hit 200+ DPS.

Not sure what to say other than there are alot of adds so maybe there's more chances for crit to do their magic than when you do a simulated parse.

Much like spellspeed, it's probably a culmination of these attributes not just one that makes a set BiS.

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Originally Posted by NexusArchmagus

Came in just to report my findings.

Ran T4 with the DET heavy set and did about 180.

Ran another round with CRIT regular BiS set and hit 200+ DPS.

Not sure what to say other than there are alot of adds so maybe there's more chances for crit to do their magic than when you do a simulated parse.

Much like spellspeed, it's probably a culmination of these attributes not just one that makes a set BiS.

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Not really. I can do 300+ dps on T4 with DTR and CRT heavy sets. Perhaps you just sucked less the second time.

180 and 200 dps on t4 is awfully low for a BiS SMN (or any class for that matter). There's definitely something else than gear choice going on here.

Testing dps on actual encounters is also not very reliable. With the same gear set it's not uncommon to have about ~20 dps variation on a fight depending on how it goes.

Won't lie, now that I have my allagan book my concern for bis setups is nonexistent. :D It no longer bothers me that I haven't seen the casting boots in four months (bet you they drop this week now).

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Why do you continue to simply outright ignore the math, the only one part of this that can be proven at all?

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In reality, the 'old' BiS set (CRT heavy) is almost (within 0.5%) as good as the DTR heavy BiS. There is no reason to argue the merits of CRT in the current SMN itemization. A CRT heavy BiS is just as good as a DTR heavy BiS. But all this vague rationalization going on is doing absolutely nothing to contribute to the conversation, all it does is confuse the issue for people who haven't taken the time to read all the actual proof.

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You just said there's a 0.5% difference in damage between sets. Does that mean you're claiming the parsers you used and your own "tests" are so perfect that they are more than 99.5% accurate?


What "proof" is there? You have no proof. You've been wrong several times throughout this thread and admitted it. Let me highlight:

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Originally Posted by T0rin

I don't know if they changed the pet affecting food issue, but I can personally attest to the pet accuracy cap being under 436.

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WRONG

Here was you admitting that a parser led you to believe this incorrect information:

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Originally Posted by T0rin

As far as I can tell, the pet cap (~450) is still the same. The only thing that had changed, was that FFXIV-APP started mis-reporting 100% pet accuracy, when it wasn't. This caused me and some others to believe that the pet cap had changed, when in reality it seems to have not.

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Here's you explaining your BiS foundation of reasoning with "INT Stat Weights":

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Originally Posted by T0rin

The cap between the current BiS set and this proposed one is so large (11 weighted int) that the minor DPS bump you see from the SS buff won't amount to 11 int worth.

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Then you diminish the value of INT stat weights (your entire basis for what's BiS):

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Originally Posted by T0rin

You know, the more I think about it, the less value I think there is in using stat weights. Let's stop to think for a second... what does a stat weight really mean?

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My entire argument throughout this thread has been that the stat weights you came up hold no actual value (weights which you yourself even question).

You've admitted to being completely mislead by a parser before, and then questioned your entire foundation for what's BiS (stat weights).

My preference for a Crit BiS is based on the synergy with the pet trait & potential to do the most damage *(and, outside of coil, you'd sub in the allagan gloves & allagan earrings to have even better synergy)*.

You don't work for SE, you don't know the actual damage formulas, and the authority and confidence you have with your theories (theories, not proof) amaze me when you've been wrong several times throughout this thread.


Subjective tests on a dummy based on parsing results that have led you to false information before are not rock-solid proof of anything.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

You just said there's a 0.5% difference in damage between sets. Does that mean you're claiming the parsers you used and your own "tests" are so perfect that they are more than 99.5% accurate?

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I have never claimed parsers are accurate. I gave my own simulations in full as "proof" of the 0.5% difference. The one thing that is constant about my simulation is the rotation. It never changes. Every set goes through the exact same rotation, to ensure a fair comparison. I've said time and time again that there is only so much you can do to prove things out. I think we've gone about as far as math and simulations can take us, at some point, if you can't put your faith into that, there is nothing to say but "best of luck". An accurate simulation with full disclosure and no bias showing that DTR and CRT have a 0.5% DPS difference is at least enough for me to be confident in the results. There will always be skeptics, but there is only so much you can do.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

What "proof" is there? You have no proof. You've been wrong several times throughout this thread and admitted it.

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I make no claims of being infallible. In fact, I eagerly point out when I was wrong and go about what I can to correct those assumptions. The proof is in the aforementioned verification of the damage formula and the resulting simulations. If you can't accept that as proof, nothing short of perfect robotic parsing and SE provided in-game DPS metrics will make you happy. And guess what? We're never going to see that.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

My entire argument throughout this thread has been that the stat weights you came up hold no actual value (weights which you yourself even question).

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True, stat weighting as a means to determine BiS is a completed flawed method of thinking. Due to the relative nature of the weights, they mean nothing when applied in a fashion that would show one set to be better than another.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

You've admitted to being completely mislead by a parser before, and then questioned your entire foundation for what's BiS (stat weights).

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Yep, I have. But the being mislead by the parser was an issue of pet accuracy, not in any way related to BiS, except in that we may have had to rethink things if we didnt need the extra 18 accuracy to cap out the pet. Again, I admitted to it, and made corrective statements about it.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

My preference for a Crit BiS is based on the synergy with the pet trait & potential to do the most damage *(and, outside of coil, you'd sub in the allagan gloves & allagan earrings to have even better synergy)*.

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The pet trait is complete garbage. 20% spell speed for 8 seconds (2 GCDs) on 4% of every pet attack (2.9x seconds, assuming not moving, or contagioning) is a very slim chance of occurence (less than one per minute) for a very minor buff overall in terms of DPS. The amount you gain from that proc happening is absolutely not worth the CRT focus. (see the aforementioned simulations I linked to see how a more frequently occuring spell speed buff actually affects DPS, because I included it)

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

You don't work for SE, you don't know the actual damage formulas, and the authority and confidence you have with your theories (theories, not proof) amaze me when you've been wrong several times throughout this thread.

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No, I don't. And if we leave it up to them, nobody will ever know. Thing is, the formula we do have is accurate enough to ALWAYS give reliable results that CAN be traced back to in-game data. You can sit there and spit out 500 casts of ANY spell in ANY gear set you want, and compare that to the damage formula we are using, and get the SAME results EVERY time. If THAT isn't accurate enough for you, nothing ever will be.

I'll always be confident in what I'm doing, because I'm going about it in the best known way possible. And when my results are disproven, either by myself or others, or even brought under questioning, I'd GLADLY look at the issue at hand. This is a community effort to try to figure out what is best based on the information we have and what we CAN correlate to in-game results. I have no reason currently to think that my simulation, the damage formula, or the results that came out of it, are in any way inaccurate. They give a fair shake to any given build, and use realistic rotations to simulate how things actually play out in game. They give the benefit of every stat where that stat is due. Nothing is neglected that would favor one over another.

If you can think of a better way to go about this that can actually be documented and proven out, feel free to bring it up. For now, all you do is say this is a bunch of bandwagoning and say CRT beats everything, with nothing but anecdotal or RNG based "proof". I've been completely open about my methods and math, how I came to my conclusions, and there has been a lot of GOOD conversation about it, deconstructing it, finding the flaws. That's how it SHOULD work. Simply calling it out for being rubbish and saying you know better and providing nothing to back up what you say, is a waste of everyone's time, your's included.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

Subjective tests on a dummy based on parsing results that have led you to false information before are not rock-solid proof of anything.

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Nothing was ever based on parsing results except pet accuracy, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the current discussion.

You know Alucard, people don't even walk to debate you on this anymore, that's how ridiculous your arguments are coming across. I'm glad you're very enthusiastic about the topic, but we need to step away from the idea of RNG having any effect on BiS, and talk about these things in their most elemental way possible. I'd like you to be a constructive part of the conversation, but as it stands, you're doing nothing to move the conversation forward. If anything, you're simply trying to take the 'science' out of proving anything, and debating what boils down to illogical arguments.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

You have to consider that Garuda has his own crit rate (scaled from gear) along with me.

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Irrelevant. SMN personal DPS is lower than average. Replaced by pet. Pet also gains DTR. Note: for any fight where you use Ifrit, DTR is even better.

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It's [I believe] more than 1% of a crit-rate difference between gearsets.

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It's more than 8 DTR between gearsets.

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You're assuming it's taken over 100 casts for me to get 1 extra crit.

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It does with +1% crit.

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You're also assuming that your ruins hit higher in the damage window every single time,

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No. The bottom end of a DTR-optimized damage window is higher than the bottom end of your window.

Irrelevant.

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But I feel the likelihood of hitting at least one extra one per 100 casts would be worth it.

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Your feeling is wrong.

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You also have to take into account that only ruin gets that small +100 damage bonus; fester and enkindle get bigger bonuses and are on longer cooldowns, so an extra crit off one of those abilities is huge.

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They also scale more with DTR. Comparatively irrelevant.


You make a long chain of useless irrelevant arguments, trying to create differences in context where there are none.

The only relevant discussion in terms of skewed scaling are:

1. The SMN crit -> spellhate proc for Garuda was it?
2. Ifrit gains bonus scaling from DTR due to physical autoattacks.
3. Fixed DoT timer and SMN heavy reliance on DoTs causes a partially reduced scaling from SS.

Everything else is pretty much a wash and comes down to raw damage formula.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

The only relevant discussion in terms of skewed scaling are:

1. The SMN crit -> spellhate proc for Garuda was it?
2. Ifrit gains bonus scaling from DTR due to physical autoattacks.
3. Fixed DoT timer and SMN heavy reliance on DoTs causes a partially reduced scaling from SS.

Everything else is pretty much a wash and comes down to raw damage formula.

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Yep.

1. Very underwhelming. Difference in CRT and DTR sets amount to about a 0.1% decrease in Garuda DPS from SS buffs, the same for a SMN if in the middle of Ruin filler, and even less of a decrease if casting DoTs. The crit proc buff is really very weak, and is not a compelling reason to use a CRT based set.

2. Nobody uses Ifrit, but I will have to try to test out striking dummy DPS once I finish my DTR set.

3. This is true, but casting DoTs consumes only 37% of our casting time with a GCD of 2.94. (DTR set) So the other 63% of the time, we get the full benefit from SS. That 37% of the time we get very little benefit from SS, as we are usually clipping DoTs at very low durations (0-1) or finishing a re-cast shortly after a DoT expired. The cumulative benefit of SS on DoT casts is kind of hard to put a number to, which is part of why I wanted to simulate it. While SS in general is a 'weak' stat, it is not all together useless, because of how much time we do spend casting Ruin. Still though, it is the weakest stat from a DPS contribution standpoint.

And for the record, I do use the CRT heavy BiS currently. I have nothing against CRT in general, and used the BiS set I was able to put together. That said, had the DTR items dropped for me instead, I would have no qualms using that instead.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Yep.



And for the record, I do use the CRT heavy BiS currently. I have nothing against CRT in general, and used the BiS set I was able to put together. That said, had the DTR items dropped for me instead, I would have qualms using that instead.

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I have both sets, but I can't experiment since I do not have the allagan book. My static can't beat t5.

t5 isn't a hard fight, its really all about mechanics.just need 1 person to know the timers and ot call for things. i.e. divebomb twisters dreadknight, this is pretty much 1 of our tanks, the main tank is payin attention to the timers too but hes calling for when death sentence happens. if you don't get it down now it'll just be a month before they make bc easier than it already is.

Torin has spoken! On a different note I have both sets sans book (god damn healers hogging all the loot) but both sets seem so close to each other that i just go with w.e looks best. (I don't like capri's)

Man, you don't take criticism well.

Have you tried these in T4? Could you post up a parse? Hell, even a video. I'm missing the SMN book so if you could indulge us with some real time data that'd be cool.

http://i.imgur.com/k3b7NIJ.jpg

Not any of the BiS sets and not accuracy capped (forgot to switch gloves back for coil).

200 dps on t4 is simply too low. I'm not saying you did bad personally, just saying there's more to the results you posted than gear choice (could be parser was messed up maybe). And besides there's too much variation for dps in actual encounters for it to be a reliable measure in figuring out the best set of gear.

Do you have your pet re-named to you?

Also, was the DRG using AOEs?

Edit:

200 DPS is legit SMN-personal (non-pet) DPS on T4 if they have 2 other AOE classes (BLM + DRG) spamming hard AOEs during P1/P4. Could be higher, but not bad.

T4's honestly one of the worst fights to compare parses between players of different groups due to the fight approach varying so much, and the other players interfering with damage potential.

Yeah that's pet merged. I guess 200 makes a bit more sense if you only consider the personal SMN dps, I'm just so used to merged now I forget SMN has his own damage, heh. From memory though garuda was 17% of the damage on that fight so ~330 personal dps, still far above 200. Although the other SMN also usually runs BLM and I do lower then since he gets to steal most of the AoE damage and he comes out on top.

Dunno what DRG was doing. No bards anymore so no TP song, not sure how it fits into the scenario.

If a BLM + DRG are unloading AOE burst, the spiders in p1 will basically be dead / almost dead by the time a SMN full loads spells (which means they should adapt and Bane after like 1-2 DoTs, or just SF-AOE Miasma + Blizz2 spam, or w/e). In this scenario the SMN would basically not get too much damage out in p1.

DRG can pump out basically >650 DPS in phase 1, with the BLM pulling the same. If you're really trying to optimize the fight, then the WHM should also pop a Holy-SC Holy or w/e. DRG + BLM + WHM would probably have spiders killed in less than 10 seconds. Maybe 15.

BRD TP song wouldn't be relevant unless the DRG were carrying AOEs by themselves, which is unusual. With a BLM, they can conserve sufficient TP that no TP song is necessary.

P4 is a bit variable depending on how fast p2-3 went. If they went fast, then the DRG may not have certain cooldowns up for p4, which significantly affects their AOE output, so the SMN would be able to take more of the damage. BLMs don't really have relevant cooldowns so they would be putting out AOEs regardless.

If the DRG were min-maxing the total fight, they would go ham AOE on p1 for >700 DPS, do slow DPS on p2 and p3 (conserve TP), then go ham on p4 again for >450 (fast 2-3) or >600 (slow 2-3).

Depending on how much ST burst DPS your teammates are doing (note: with 2x SMN, probably less than average), the clockworks in p2 could go down exceedingly fast one-by-one, meaning less bane damage over time.

The SMN can gain the most consistent DPS on p2,5,6, depending on whether or not the mobs are tanked within bane range.


TLDR:

Basically if your DRG is not AOEing (or AOEing much), then your group is characterized by a slower p1/p4, allowing you to accrue a lot of AOE damage in those phases. This is (imo) abnormal for t4 since most groups tend to have a BLM.

I still see a solid 360+ with the BLM around, although I don't really like throwing out numbers when I don't have an actual parse to relate it to. Double SMN was all I had on hand for this week so that's what I linked.

If anything though this all serves to corroborate what I previously mentioned about actual encounters being a poor metric for figuring out best gear sets. Even the exact same group can and will see fluctuation in performance, as players aren't machines and they never play the exact same way on each attempts, and as just discussed personal performance is very often directly influenced by group performance.

Turn 4 is probably one of the most notable example of this, but it's still applicable for pretty much every fights where timings and transitions will shift depending on overall group performance. Even a simple fight like caduceus can create variation simply depending on how quickly he dies.

In the end, only sim bot can save us. All our hopes and dreams must go with sim bot, and in turn he will lead us to freedom.

I was wondering if most of this data was parsed with food active? I see a lot of SMN threads indicating eating Buttons in a Blanket or the HQ version. I was just wondering as a lot of people are reaching i90 gear if Black Truffle Risotto will be a worth while food to eat? I was just curious because if that is the case people might want to provide parsing BiS data while eating the BiS food.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

I still see a solid 360+ with the BLM around, although I don't really like throwing out numbers when I don't have an actual parse to relate it to.

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Yeah our BLM and I both average 320-360 depending on RNG and fluctuations with T4.

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If anything though this all serves to corroborate what I previously mentioned about actual encounters being a poor metric for figuring out best gear sets.

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Most fights are ok. Fights with significant AOE components are variable. T4 is exceptionally variable because of all the multi-target options. SMNs don't have a simple and direct AOE methodology, so different AOE group compositions will significantly impact how a SMN accrues AOE damage, or not. Hell, you could even cycle in Ifrit egi IIRC, since Enkindle is some type of AOE right?

Fights with only ST or nearly-only ST are pretty reliable. For example I parse +/- 5 DPS (1.5%) on Atomos basically every single time (unless the next groups sucks at standing on the pad). I'm usually always consistent on Cad as well, although this week I somehow parsed 20-25 DPS lower than normal, which really weirded me out.

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Originally Posted by Flips

I was wondering if most of this data was parsed with food active? I see a lot of SMN threads indicating eating Buttons in a Blanket or the HQ version. I was just wondering as a lot of people are reaching i90 gear if Black Truffle Risotto will be a worth while food to eat? I was just curious because if that is the case people might want to provide parsing BiS data while eating the BiS food.

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Buttons HQ > Risotto/HQ.

I assume everyone uses food for Coil. Food is pretty cheap and doesn't expire on death anymore :D.

In the end though, food only nets like 5 DPS or so, maybe a tad more.

Those numbers are with HQ buttons. I checked again recently to see if risotto might be worth using now and while I don't remember the exact numbers, I just remember that we're still a long way off from getting full value from it.

I really don't like atomos parses lol. It's pretty much just a dumb training dummy inside of a dungeon that people try to use as a reference for doing optimal dps in an "actual boss fight". And your caduceus example is exactly what I mean! It's a short fight so small details like being able to fit in an extra blood for blood at the end can probably make a noticeable difference, and its short nature also prevents rng elements from being normalized more so factors such as crit, good or bad, can actual sway the outcome more than you'd like, for data gathering anyway.

Both garuda and ifrit have aoe enkindles. Garuda's is a centered aoe, much like flare is (about the same range too I think), while ifrit's is a cone similar to rock breaker. Cycling pets on t4 is definitely a bad idea regardless, it's a a harsh fight on SMN's MP.

EDIT: Just to be a bit more specific. Assuming the difference in gear sets is actually quite small (torin mentioned summoner's "worst in slot" is only about 2% worse than the BiS, and I'd assume a similar picture can probably be painted for most classes, bards and crit being a possible exception), even the smallest of variations in fights are enough to skew data more than what should be considered acceptable. If this is correct, in most cases the variations you will see in a fight from performance whether it be personal or group related, should be greater than any variations caused by the gear itself, making the exercise mostly futile. Any difference in results that is large enough to be cause for concern is most definitely unrelated to the choice of gear set.

Just so I can get some help on improving it and try to make my 'findings' more open than they are currently, here is a link to the simulator I'm writing:

http://logicfix.net/sim/?wd=71&int=4...0&food=buttons

You can obviously plug whatever stats you want for those stat parameters.. valid food parameters are 'buttons' and 'eggs'.

I just added rouse/spur/enkindle/raging strikes, but the second cast of raging strikes is poorly logic'd out. The first one just kicks off at the beginning before DoTs are cast, I need to come up with some good logic for when to tell it to cast the second one. Enkindle for instance waits on both rouse and spur to be up, but since it is on a 5 min CD, it will only ever get cast once during the sim.

Speaking of which, it is a hard coded 5 min sim right now. Soon (once I test the impact of stress of allowing significantly longer durations), will open it up from like a 1-60 min sim, for purposes of averaging out inconsistencies in the rotation between sets because of GCD differences. (and find a good logic for casting RS)

Damage is averaged out to account for RNG variation, and crit damage is averaged in as well. There should be no RNG impact. SS buff occurrence rate is based on crit chance.. higher crit chance = more frequent crits = more frequent SS buffs.

Things I still need to add:

* Mega-int pot usage
* Optional party buff (INT, speaking of which, does anyone know exactly how much this is? Is it a flat amount or something like 3%?)
* Mechanics-based cast interruptions (random or specific intervals, i.e. ex titan fight)
* AoE sim
* ACN mode that uses B4B and IR to allow comparisons between ACN and SMN dps
* Gear/race picker to streamline stat inputs
* Different pets (Ifrit) once I figure out how to account for his auto-attacks accurately and how damage is derived on his attacks (compared to Garuda)
* Add more food
* Add mana counter, to determine if/when you might run out
* Figure out some way to intelligently involve Foe's Requiem

The first line of the sim is going to look something like this:

WD: 71, INT: 499, DTR: 253(13), CRT: 468(9), SS: 460, GCD: 2.38, PGCD: 2.86, CC: 14.1826, PC: 2.83652, CPP: 35, Food: buttons

WD = Weapon Damage
INT = Intelligence
DTR = Determination (number in parenthesis is the amount that food provides in addition to the base amount)
CRT = Critical Hit Chance (number in parenthesis is the amount that food provides in addition to the base amount)
SS = Spell Speed
GCD = Calculated GCD based on SS
PGCD = Calculated Pet GCD based on SS
CC = Critical Chance %
PC = Proc Chance for SS buff per pet cast
CPP = Casts Per Proc, average of how many casts it takes to proc an SS buff
Food = What food you told it to use, always defaults to HQ food

Disclaimer: It isn't perfect. It is a work in progress. If I add some code to it and it breaks it, you'll probably see a blank page. If you do something idiotic like pass int=yourmom, it's probably going to break. I haven't added much variable handling simply because there is no security risk currently as it utilizes no SQL connections, so there was really no need. I usually won't leave it broken for long if I do break it in the process of development though. If you find any significant flaws in the rotation logic (doing something it shouldn't, or whatever), please let me know so I can fix. Also, any ideas to improve it are always welcome. And don't nitpick stupid crap like Festers going off 0.01 seconds after an instant cast (Bio1, Ruin2, etc.), I did that for ease of scripting, even if in reality you would have to wait ~1 second to cast. It is only ever trying to fit a single OCGD spell into an instant's GCD, so it isn't doing anything that is impossible.

Edit: Also, I have yet to do BiS based on party buffs/food, so things may change based on that. Once I figure out how much party buffs are, I'll add it in and run some numbers through it. But of course, anyone else is free to do that as well.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

http://i.imgur.com/k3b7NIJ.jpg

Not any of the BiS sets and not accuracy capped (forgot to switch gloves back for coil).

200 dps on t4 is simply too low. I'm not saying you did bad personally, just saying there's more to the results you posted than gear choice (could be parser was messed up maybe). And besides there's too much variation for dps in actual encounters for it to be a reliable measure in figuring out the best set of gear.

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Okay, not sure where I got 200 from, but I made ACT combine my DPS and my egi's and it seems to fall more in line with what you have there!

http://imageshack.com/a/img823/20/nql4.jpg

But you said you weren't using either set, so... who knows? lol

Were you using Zenith or Allagan book?

Gear used was http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LR3E

Just ran some numbers..

dtr bis, buttons = 101258 (top)
dtr bis, eggs = 101073 (-0.18%)
crt bis, buttons = 100828 (-0.42%)
crt bis, eggs = 100660 (-0.59%)
hybrid bis, buttons = 101020 (-0.23%)
hybrid bis, eggs = 100788 (-0.46%)

party dtr, buttons = 103729 (top)
party dtr, eggs = 103556 (-0.17%)
party crt, buttons = 103518 (-0.20%)
party crt, eggs = 103250 (-0.46%)
party hybrid, buttons = 103685 (-0.04%)
party hybrid, eggs = 103348 (-0.37%)

Between 3 different sets (albeit hybrid is only 1 item off of crt), there was a maximum different of 0.59% between the 'best' of the best, and the 'worst' of the best. And nobody should use deviled eggs.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Just ran some numbers..

dtr bis, buttons = 101258 (top)
dtr bis, eggs = 101073 (-0.18%)
crt bis, buttons = 100828 (-0.42%)
crt bis, eggs = 100660 (-0.59%)
hybrid bis, buttons = 101020 (-0.23%)
hybrid bis, eggs = 100788 (-0.46%)

party dtr, buttons = 103729 (top)
party dtr, eggs = 103556 (-0.17%)
party crt, buttons = 103518 (-0.20%)
party crt, eggs = 103250 (-0.46%)
party hybrid, buttons = 103685 (-0.04%)
party hybrid, eggs = 103348 (-0.37%)

Between 3 different sets (albeit hybrid is only 1 item off of crt), there was a maximum different of 0.59% between the 'best' of the best, and the 'worst' of the best. And nobody should use deviled eggs.

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Huh, interesting. Did you use NQ & / or HQ for d. eggs & buttons?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flips

Huh, interesting. Did you use NQ & / or HQ for d. eggs & buttons?

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HQ

/10char

how do things look for primals anyway? you don't need accuracy so would something like crimson boots beat out allagan/AF2 boots

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jars

would something like crimson boots beat out allagan/AF2 boots

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No

/10char

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jars

how do things look for primals anyway? you don't need accuracy so would something like crimson boots beat out allagan/AF2 boots

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The only i80 gear worth using is the Ultima ring, and only on primals where accuracy is not an issue. The itemization of all the other i80 items prevents any of it from being better than the i90 alternatives.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by idle0ne

t5 isn't a hard fight, its really all about mechanics.just need 1 person to know the timers and ot call for things. i.e. divebomb twisters dreadknight, this is pretty much 1 of our tanks, the main tank is payin attention to the timers too but hes calling for when death sentence happens. if you don't get it down now it'll just be a month before they make bc easier than it already is.

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I got the allagan book on friday. Now I can experiment.

Finally got Summoner BiS without book (titan is not fun), what's BiS without regards to accuracy?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

Finally got Summoner BiS without book (titan is not fun), what's BiS without regards to accuracy?

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http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LRN4

Quote:

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Originally Posted by T0rin

The only i80 gear worth using is the Ultima ring, and only on primals where accuracy is not an issue. The itemization of all the other i80 items prevents any of it from being better than the i90 alternatives.

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the boots are itemized the same way, and at least in my case t2 will not cough up the boots, so it's the inferior AF2 boots for accuracy. that makes the comparison 3 int and 15 spell speed versus 19 crit and 9 det.

are there any updates or tests on a spell speed set?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deskyz

are there any updates or tests on a spell speed set?

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Considering SS has a ridiculously negligible effect on SMN's DoT upkeep, and is mostly only buffing a SMN's Ruin filler and Garuda, it basically cannot and will not be worth more than CHR/DET unless DoTs are affected by SS at their core (which isn't likely to happen any time soon if ever due to the server 3s global tick FFXIV uses for all ticks of any sort).

Any updates now we are using Soldiery items?