Small Rant on Seal Rolls in Hamlet parties

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Originally Posted by Raikki

You agreed to change your seal odds to what they were when the seal dropped. You knew exactly the odds you were getting into. You got the odds you agreed to, you have absolutely nothing to complain about.

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If that player genuinely needed the seal, I'd be more than happy to let him loot on it which is why I said ok. That person made the change under false pretense by means of omission. Don't sit here and try to tell me what they did was on the up and up and that it was somehow my fault so I should shut up.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I'm not QQing at all. Just discussing something I find to be unethical and to see what everyone else thinks as well. It is pretty much as I expected.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I was in a hamlet party and before the last run, one player asked to switch his loot preference from one of the other drop items to a seal. I wasn't sure at the time why they wouldn't want seals to begin with if they still needed seals but when put to vote by the party leader, I said sure.

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If he wins, whatever happens after the fact is irrelevant because you agreed to it. He can keep it, he can pass it to you, he can pass it to his friend, he can destroy it.

This whole thread is a QQ because he passed loot he won in rules that you agreed with.

I agree with everything Rakkii posted.

Look at it from the other guy's perspective. He had to give up his lot on something he may have wanted for himself so that he could help a friend out. That's actually pretty nice of him. I see nothing morally wrong about that in any way.

The only thing that almost makes sense is the 'lowering your chances' argument. But you agreed with letting him lot for it. Therefore you agreed to having your chance of winning that lot to being lower. Whether he's keeping or passing his winning lot doesn't change your odds any.

And while I agree with the stance that he is free to do whatever he wants with his winning lots, I too would think someone is a d-bag if he lotted on stuff just to drop it for the lulz or if he roleplayed that his retainer was a love interest that could be wooed by giving her lots of rare treasures...or whatever. But this was just a dude helping out a friend, a friend who needs and plans on using these seals.

It isn't immoral to help a friend out, and it isn't unfair to lot on something when it's been agreed on prior to the drop. Hopefully there is a better loot system in ARR than this horrible setup we have currently. One where people won't have to compete against their own party members for frustratingly low drop rate loot.

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Originally Posted by Meatdawg

If he wins, whatever happens after the fact is irrelevant because you agreed to it. He can keep it, he can pass it to you, he can pass it to his friend, he can destroy it.

This whole thread is a QQ because he passed loot he won in rules that you agreed with.

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I never agreed to rules which stated people could give their lots to other people. It was never even mentioned. You guys seem to keep ignoring that and trying to assert the opposite was true.

In any case, simply reporting something I find to be unethical and explaining why is hardly a QQ. Actually, I guess by that logic I could say you are QQing about the existence of this thread.

Stop QQing.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I never agreed to rules which stated people could give their lots to other people. It was never even mentioned. You guys seem to keep ignoring that and trying to assert the opposite was true.

In any case, simply reporting something I find to be unethical and explaining why is hardly a QQ. Actually, I guess by that logic I could say you are QQing about the existence of this thread.

Stop QQing.

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Excellent counter point...

If you really cared about what people are going to do with the loot they're lotting on if they win the lot why didn't you just ask?

It seems a bit weird to suggest that someone should have to state that kind of thing beforehand. It's not like it's a common practice, or we normally do that for anything else.

Still, you let him lot. You chose to vote for that without knowing what he was going to do with the loot. If what they do with the stuff they win lot on matters to you for whatever reason then you should be the one inquiring about it before you agree to letting them lot on things. Your mistake, bro.

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Originally Posted by Miburo

If you really cared about what people are going to do with the loot they're lotting on if they win the lot why didn't you just ask?

It seems a bit weird to suggest that someone should have to state that kind of thing beforehand. It's not like it's a common practice, or we normally do that for anything else.

Still, you let him lot. You chose to vote for that without knowing what he was going to do with the loot. If what they do with the stuff they win lot on matters to you for whatever reason then you should be the one inquiring about it before you agree to letting them lot on things. Your mistake, bro.

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Good question.

The answer is because it didn't occur to me why a person wouldn't lot for seals from the start if they needed them until the end when it dawned on me what was going on. I would never dream of doing that to other players and this is the first time I have ever encountered this behavior literally ever.

So yes, you are right. It is my mistake for giving people the benefit of the doubt and believing everyone else has the same respect and sense of fairness for other players as I do.

I see nothing wrong with it. You also have the option of forming a hamlet party with as many of your friends you can find and/or making your own lotting rules. I think the mistake most pugs make is allowing people to /random in the first place. If you are in a pug every drop should be 'if it's in your loot, it's yours to keep,pass drop however you see fit'. period. This way, friends can help friends, but people who joined the party hoping for their own 1/8 chance, still feel like they have a chance too.

That being said, you can't do a hamlet 7/8....so whining that a friend won a lot and passed a seal is pointless. He helped get you in the instance/get the win in the first place, then won a /random. If he wanted to keep that seal in his pocket forever, it is his right to do so.

Also, look at it from the friends perspective:
He either already is 3/3 or doesn't have an interest in relics. Either way, he came out there mostly to help a friend or get gear. If he was only there for gear he decided to be NICE and switch his lot from something he actually needed/wanted to meet the needs of a friend. If his intent was to only help his friend, then he was willingly grinding a couple more hamlets, he didn't need to grind to help a friend out. Either way, he wasn't being a jerk or even trying to be one. He was simply helping a friend get something they need.

If this bugs you so much, and it sounds like it does, only do runs with your LS/static/friends or form your own PUGs with your own rules and structure.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

If that player genuinely needed the seal, I'd be more than happy to let him loot on it which is why I said ok. That person made the change under false pretense by means of omission. Don't sit here and try to tell me what they did was on the up and up and that it was somehow my fault so I should shut up.

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The nature of a pickup group is that everyone's in it for themselves. That's what you're signing up for by participating in one. It's not unethical. There was nothing shady about his omission because what matters to individual members of a PUG is their loot odds, not what other people do with their drops. Your problem is that you want more than the "PUG selfishness" out of your groups, yet you're participating in PUGs. You can't change the nature of a pickup group. Accept that you're playing as an individual and if you want to forge friendships and break out of that, that's great.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

The nature of a pickup group is that everyone's in it for themselves. That's what you're signing up for by participating in one. It's not unethical. There was nothing shady about his omission because what matters to individual members of a PUG is their loot odds, not what other people do with their drops. Your problem is that you want more than the "PUG selfishness" out of your groups, yet you're participating in PUGs. You can't change the nature of a pickup group. Accept that you're playing as an individual and if you want to forge friendships and break out of that, that's great.

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Or SE could just fix it so that players who want to manipulate the system in their favor can no longer do so.