On this day a year ago, Plunge was taken from us (and other Job Identity)

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

How would it work for PLD? I like shield charging an enemyfrom afar even funnier when i use it to negate knock back and deal some extra damage

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Based on Trajectory and whatever the shitty DRG gap closer is called, A-pose and slide at the enemy with a shield particle effect in front of you.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

Look! This guy likes to have LESS options and LESS decision making!

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lol. I've done it in other games that have a free-standing dash skill where the critters do cleave auto attacks and literally no one but the tank can take even one hit from them. It's good for a laugh but it's not a decision to make, it's just fat-fingering the dash. I wouldn't mind this game having a dodge button though, being able to greed even more because you can dodge out of an AoE at the last second would be fun.

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

I mean gotta make sure the party pays attention and not tunnel vision

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An sudden incoming tankbuster does tend to wake people up!

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

If you ever wondered, Warrior has a 3 dash that deal damage which you might think is nothing but in areas such as deep dungeons, this can easily kill mobs or get you that extra dps. Even in dungeons this alone can deal nice damage x3.

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Tbf, you don't get added overall DPS from having damaging gap closers unless the devs so neglect balance that they happily drop all others' DPS by some 2%.

At most, you just get to dump slightly more of it into a short window, assuming that the two job's burst potential were never equalized and/or the mobility tools were specifically not expected to be used in multiple under raid buffs.

"You shouldn't have to make a choice between damage and mobility, Plunge is bad, mimimimi"- alright, let's remove damage from ALL mobility actions. Looking at YOU, Warrior, with Onslaught AND Primal Rend. Looking at YOU, Dragoon, with Stardiver. /s

In all seriousness - why is nobody considering "what if we had both"? Shadowstride on say a 30-45s CD, purely there for mobility on demand and Plunge with damage and mechanically meaningful effects like PvP DRK has it? I mean Warrior literally has Primal Rend as a GCD dash which is part of their burst and still have Onslaught as well. They don't seem to do too bad with having two different mobility options.

Before Endwalker, they also had arguably the best designed dash with a gauge cost and low CD (10s), which made it damage neutral on average (yes I did the math back then) relative to Fell Cleave and 123 combo finishes near the end of a fight. Samurai also currently has a gauge-costing dash AND backstep which is damage neutral to their main gauge spender.

Ya'll gotta get out of this absolute "EITHER X OR Y" mindset. Think outside of the box.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

"You shouldn't have to make a choice between damage and mobility, Plunge is bad, mimimimi"- alright, let's remove damage from ALL mobility actions. Looking at YOU, Warrior, with Onslaught AND Primal Rend. Looking at YOU, Dragoon, with Stardiver. /s

In all seriousness - why is nobody considering "what if we had both"? Shadowstride on say a 30-45s CD, purely there for mobility on demand and Plunge with damage and mechanically meaningful effects like PvP DRK has it? I mean Warrior literally has Primal Rend as a GCD dash which is part of their burst and still have Onslaught as well. They don't seem to do too bad with having two different mobility options.

Before Endwalker, they also had arguably the best designed dash with a gauge cost and low CD (10s), which made it damage neutral on average (yes I did the math back then) relative to Fell Cleave and 123 combo finishes near the end of a fight. Samurai also currently has a gauge-costing dash AND backstep which is damage neutral to their main gauge spender.

Ya'll gotta get out of this absolute "EITHER X OR Y" mindset. Think outside of the box.

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Because feature creep is as much a thing as power creep.

And do you really want encounters that would leverage proportionately more gap-closers, let alone then have to provide similar downtime reduction to Aiming/Casting/Healing jobs where they'd be similarly affected by said encounter changes?



Edit:
Since this wasn't as clear as I would like, by "features" I mean anything that allows you to meet a situational need that's more than just overall potency requirements, be that banking said potency to fit what would otherwise require more uptime into a smaller time period, maintaining uptime despite gaps or movement requirements, etc. (Nearly-)no-loss gap closers are one such feature. (Nearly-)no-loss ranged skills are another. The likes of meditation, if it were (situationally) to get almost as much potency per GCD as continuing one's melee attacks would be yet another.

The more accessible (less thought required, more charges, lower recast time) the skills, traits, etc., that give you those features, the more of it you have. Having too much of a given feature (such as gap-closing), especially if overly accessible, can devalue the more complex portions.

Consider it as just the opposite side of power creep. The more excessive your power, the less optimizing it matters. The more excessive your features, the less you need to leverage them well and the less the parts of kits that most differ in how they'd deal with a given situation (which are rarely the most easy-to-use parts) can shine.

For this reason, I wouldn't want to see the likes of DRK increase its frequency of gap-closing capacity by some 50 - 100% as suggested above. If it's to gain more uptime-saving capacity to more nearly match the most mobile of jobs (which would require that encounters have more to use it on, else it's all just so excessive as to water down any relevant skill expression), I'd prefer that come from other means.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Because feature creep is as much a thing as power creep.

And do you really want encounters that would leverage proportionately more gap-closers, let alone then have to provide similar downtime reduction to Aiming/Casting/Healing jobs where they'd be similarly affected by said encounter changes?

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Wha- sorry but I'm a bit lost here with what you mean with "feature creep", so I assume you mean something like "one button doing too many things" like PvP Plunge? Because I'm gonna be honest, DRK's kit for example is the most bland it has ever been and all boils down to pressing 123 to generate MP + Blood, spend it after and have every other kit interaction be nothing but a cooldown gate with zero interplay. If this is what you mean with feature creep, no offense I heartfully disagree. If you mean something else, sorry and please enlighten me.

Also, I did not imply that you would have MORE mobility on average and that you would "need" to design fights around this, only to have two tools with appropriate-length cooldowns, one purely for mobility, the other for kit interaction that can also be situationally used as a dash just like Warrior does with Primal Rend.

"have to provide similar downtime reduction to Aiming/Healing/Casting jobs where they'd be similarly affected by said encounter changes" - uhhhh.

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Casting:
- 40s Swiftcast
- BLM heavily reduced damage impact of making Fire IV & Flare (Star) instant by moving the 2.8-3s cast time down to 2s, two stacks of Triplecast since Endwalker, Paradox instant regardless of element, Thunder always instant, Aether Manip. on 10s CD and more
- SMN exists but honestly needs to be unshafted from its low damage vs other casters
- RDM having three instant spells after melee combos, two charges on its mobility damage tools, Acceleration also granting Grand Impact now
- PCT technically having fairly on demand movement (damage numbers might be a bit scuffed regarding Hammer/Holy in White, haven't revisited that in a while) + Smudge dash with a 4s built-in sprint after

Healing:
- WHM lillies, Glare IV + has received Aetherial Shift in DT
- sorry Scholars, I feel bad for you
- AST 2x Lightspeed at 60s charge from what was once like 1x 120s CD
- SGE doing fairly well with Toxikons, Icarus and when required Eukrasia shielding...
- also 40s Swiftcast

Aiming
- Dancer says hello with En Avant, also are we really comparing the role that can do damage virtually regardless of position and having no cast times since Stormblood to melee/tanks that tend to require melee distance to do optimal damage in the expansion where they introduced fights where having to go out of melee distance actually became a thing again?

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Like - they already DID provide a ton of downtime reduction to Aiming/Casting/Healing jobs over the years and from what I felt outside of Ultimates, only really started making us utilize it properly since Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Wha- sorry but I'm a bit lost here with what you mean with "feature creep"

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Nope, I'm referring to the likes of increasing the number of instant-movement skills by 50% - 100% (a la Shadowstride AND Plunge charges both). We don't need that much access to that specific feature (mobility).

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"have to provide similar downtime reduction to Aiming/Healing/Casting jobs where they'd be similarly affected by said encounter changes" - uhhhh.

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I know. Now, do you somehow want to see that increased further to go with your doubling of gap-closers?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Nope, I'm referring to the likes of increasing the number of instant-movement skills by 50% - 100% (a la Shadowstride AND Plunge charges both). We don't need that much access to that specific feature (mobility).


I know. Now, do you somehow want to see that increased further to go with your doubling of gap-closers?

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Ok I get your point but I believe you are misunderstanding me here. I am NOT asking for 2x 30s recast on both Shadowstride and Plunge, I am suggesting 1x 30-45s on Shadowstride and Plunge respectively and making Plunge maybe something that impacts gameplay beyond a bit of potency. That's not doubling of gap closers at all.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Ok I get your point but I believe you are misunderstanding me here. I am NOT asking for 2x 30s recast on both Shadowstride and Plunge, I am suggesting 1x 30-45s on Shadowstride and Plunge respectively and making Plunge maybe something that impacts gameplay beyond a bit of potency. That's not doubling of gap closers at all.

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At 30s, that would still double the frequency of gap-closers. Charges don't cool simultaneously. At 45s that would be a 50% increase to the number of uses of instant-movement skills over time. So, a 50% - 100% increase.

More importantly, though, what's the point? If you leave Plunge at all, those who'd waste 90% of its situational value by wasting its gap-closing just to guarantee 10% by blowing it during raid buffs regardless of upcoming gaps will still be pissed it exists at all, and if you remove its second charge it actually would need to be used far nearer to on-cooldown to be worth holding for gaps. You're better off just giving 2 charges all of Plunge or 2 charges all of Shadowstride.

Plunge still exists in pvp