Job design mindset need to change

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Imagine confusing FFXIV for a FPS game. :confused:

FFXIV's encounter design doesn't value burst damage in the slightest. There's no tactical thinking to when you should burst. There's no wondering whether you should hold your burst because a more valuable target might randomly appear in the near future. Just push your rotation like a mindless robot following a spreadsheet, and you're good to go. Such wow. Such amaze. :rolleyes:

---

I'm not confusing the two, I'm comparing the two in a sarcastic way to point out the absurdity of the claim that on repetitive burst damage is meaningless, and that the prevalence of burst damage is not just an XIV thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mallleable

I'm comparing the two in a sarcastic way to point out the absurdity of the claim that on repetitive burst damage is meaningless

---

Then might I suggest you provide an example in FFXIV that demonstrates the real value or interest to burst damage. Or an example of how some other game's use of burst damage might plausibly be adapted to FFXIV to make burst damage in FFXIV valuable and interesting.

I understand why people wouldn't like this current system in the game, though. The major weakness of it is that once a rotation is built there is really not much reason to expand upon it. If anything expanding on a rotation that is established is more likely to break the rotation than anything else, or create problems where the rotation changes across different levels like it was for the BLM. The only option they have to expand on the game is to make new cosmetic options through new jobs, and eventually its just going to be the same job but a different look.

That was the primary advantage older MMOs had that were tactical. If someone needed a new option, they could add one without it breaking anything on the class or job. They also could simply update the cosmetics on certain skills if nothing needed to be added, like making a bigger holy spell animation via a trait.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Then might I suggest you provide an example in FFXIV that demonstrates the real value or interest to burst damage. Or an example of how some other game's use of burst damage might plausibly be adapted to FFXIV to make burst damage in FFXIV valuable and interesting.

---

Literally any damage spell with a cast time. The reason why damage actions with cast times have higher potencies than actions without cast times actually has little to do with the movement restrictions, and more to do with the cast time itself. You exchange doing nothing for a moment for burst damage. Damage actions with cast times cannot be anything but burst damage. Figuring out when it is safe to peak, and Taking 3 seconds to scope in, charge up, and aim a lethal sniper shot is not to different than figuring out when it is safe to stand still, and take 3 seconds to cast a Motif to fire off a Living Muse on PCT. These caparisons are why I'm obsessed with giving BRD, and MCH to walking casts like they do in PVP because it feels like a translation of aiming mechanics seen in FPS games into FFXIV's GCD gameplay.

So, do you think the entire caster, both DPS, and healer gameplay style is not interesting, and has no value, do you-? Would you say Black Mage is not interesting, and has no value?

Sacred soil and kerechole are the perfect examples of differences in a skill are near meaningless when you use the skill for the same thing for both. Even though sacred soil’s regen is stronger and kerechole is a buff you will always use them at the same time because SCH and SGE’s mit profile is rather similar. There is functionally no time a SCH’s plan would include sacred soil while a SGE’s plan doesn’t include kerechole. This also extends to the fact that pointless changes like making kerechole a 10% shield rather than a 10% mitigation in an actual encounter means nothing

To generate actual distinction between them you need to have reasons to use different skills to handle the same mechanic. An example of this would be spreadlo but spreadlo is distinct because SGE doesn’t have a counter to it so SCH can just do things SGE can’t

If a mit plan is transferable without making actual changes to your play then your skills are diffeeemt without being distinct

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

To give an example of this, before DT, but after we had the media tour info, someone was claiming that Ninja and Monk played the same. I provided quite a long post explaining how the jobs are different, between how the jobs burst, their filler etc. were different. The response was, yes, but they both have a 60 second and a 2 minute buff, therefore, they feel the same. Now, again, this can be seen as an extreme view, but it is something someone said.

---

Hi, I'm the one that made the comparison between MNK and NIN, except you're misrepresenting my entire argument as "MNK and NIN are the exact same", what did you say about broad strokes again?

Anyway, my actual argument is that the damage profile is the same. Both jobs have a 60s and 120s which they dump all their resources into and they both have a 90s to juggle. DT only made them even more similar by making them both have build/drain gauges instead of MNK being timer management. This leads to both jobs feeling very similar to play, and the gameplay feel is what I consider to be homogenised.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mallleable

And that's the crux of it, burst damage in games is really good at reducing HP bars to 0 -- like really really good at that. And that's why game designers gate burst damage behind things like low fire rates, limited ammo capacity, skill shots, charge up meters, cast times, cooldowns, etc. XIV isn't special in this regard. To me, the toothpaste is kind of out of the tube on this one.

---

There is more to my post than that tidbit.

while burst is effective, it is only especially crass and noticeable in this game because of the combination of very high potency nukes and multiplicative damage calculation. One could easily reduce the impact of these things without affecting kill times too much if we flatten the damage curve, increase the potency of filler and decrease the potency of the nukes. Make burst satisfying and impactful without devaluing the filler as much as it does now.

I'm not against burst, but understanding why the burst this game has changes the way classes are designed is key when considering possible alternatives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ovIm

There is more to my post than that tidbit.

while burst is effective, it is only especially crass and noticeable in this game because of the combination of very high potency nukes and multiplicative damage calculation. One could easily reduce the impact of these things without affecting kill times too much if we flatten the damage curve, increase the potency of filler and decrease the potency of the nukes. Make burst satisfying and impactful without devaluing the filler as much as it does now.

I'm not against burst, but understanding why the burst this game has changes the way classes are designed is key when considering possible alternatives.

---

No one is against burst there are jobs that designed around it,
The problem it is a meta if job do not follow it it will be garbage,
BLM can't win against PCT until you gutted the job or it will be like that.

Raid Buffs being removed for 90% of jobs is a good start, and keep buffs with jobs like DNC and BRD and AST ONLY

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BabyYoda

No one is against burst there are jobs that designed around it,
The problem it is a meta if job do not follow it it will be garbage,
BLM can't win against PCT until you gutted the job or it will be like that.

Raid Buffs being removed for 90% of jobs is a good start, and keep buffs with jobs like DNC and BRD and AST ONLY

---

I'm not against bursts either, truly. Bursts are good. I'm merely saying that currently, there is a very big emphasis on the bursts that does influence job design, and vice versa.

Imo, one in-between option is to add finisher moves that can't be buffed unless otherwise stated. Although when I was suggesting support job / skills in the past I suggested associating it to a max / casting player. For example Enfire enhances the next 5 weapon skills for 100 potency, or curse which increases enemy damage by 10% up to 1000 potency, or haste increases skill speed and spell speed by 100% up 800 TIME calculated potency and while Astrologian casts spells they add another 200 potency to the haste (time calculated means how much potency was gained by acceleration, because an 800 potency black mage spell is always 800 potency you didn't gain 800).