JP Players healer feedback is...

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Originally Posted by Solakor

The question isn't if they will remove something but what. They have been doing this 3 expacs in a row. SB was the middle ground where we still had skill expression but it wasn't as punishing and everything after has just been making it worse and worse.
The new SMN shouldn't exist in the game period because it's not a caster and it's completely different job to what it was before.
DT will not make it better but propably worse. The question is how much.

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I mean if their end goal is to basically make the gameplay Everquest but without any of the interesting class mechanics then it's still going to get quite a lot worse. It's just a question of how long that process is going to take.

I've seen a lot of discussion of JP players in comparison to wester players, and I think it really comes down to the fact that the JP players seem to mostly focus on the cooperative aspect of the game and realize that everyone is playing together towards the same goal. Western players even in a game like this seem to play it as a competitive game, ranking each others DPS and performance against each other.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I mean if their end goal is to basically make the gameplay Everquest but without any of the interesting class mechanics then it's still going to get quite a lot worse. It's just a question of how long that process is going to take.

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The kind of tools and skills that classes have in Everquest are way more comprehensive than anything XIV has ever had.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I've seen a lot of discussion of JP players in comparison to wester players, and I think it really comes down to the fact that the JP players seem to mostly focus on the cooperative aspect of the game and realize that everyone is playing together towards the same goal. Western players even in a game like this seem to play it as a competitive game, ranking each others DPS and performance against each other.

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The thing with healers is the fact that we know that healers are too strong with their kits for the content and they also don’t really support nerfs to skills like bloodwhetting given their responses in tank threads so what are JP healers even doing

This feels more like a “I get to be a respected and desirable member of my team by playing a job easier than SMN so what incentive do I have to rock the boat and show I’m really not that skilled” which just comes off as selfish

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I've seen a lot of discussion of JP players in comparison to wester players, and I think it really comes down to the fact that the JP players seem to mostly focus on the cooperative aspect of the game and realize that everyone is playing together towards the same goal. Western players even in a game like this seem to play it as a competitive game, ranking each others DPS and performance against each other.

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This is a case of giving the finger and losing a hand. There is no end to this stuff unless you reel it back by force or don't do it in the first place. There are ppl that demand that the game needs to be easier and easier constantly and anything that causes them to use the 2nd braincell they have needs to be eradicated because they fear they actually have to learn something or take an ounce of responsibility. Theyr justifications are just a cloak they try to hide under or they have no idea what they are talking about. The classic trinity/rpg design was made for a reason and if you try to reinvent it you better have something revolutionary or you are just making it worse. Giving these ppl the benefit of a doubt is essentially agreeing that making the game worse is good design.
It has nothing to do with cooperation or competition. That happens everywhere to a different degree.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Tinfoil hat time:
JP has a way higher savage clear rate than both EU and NA, especially their pug raiding.
Now could this be because the JP playerbase in general is more skilled? Maybe, no idea.

But their way of raiding is absolutely like a conveyor belt, or like fastfood. Players are basically interchangeable, you queue for savage in duty finder, zone in, get a macro posted, pick your spot (the really are only 2 for healers) and never deviate from whatever the incredibly safe macro strat tells you, you kill the boss and move on.
And it seems to work quite well for them, so they probably want to keep it that way, make the individual players in your party matter as little as possible.
So it is in their best interest to keep individual responsibilities as low as possible, because if the healer is suddenly required to contribute, or even able to do, more than spam their completely overtuned healing kit it potentially throws a wrench into their perfectly functional conveyor belt.

This would also explain why tank responsibilities/difficulty have been reduced to basically nothing and why they're perfectly happy with their ridiculous self sustain, less chances for tank players to mess up, more convenient boss kills, the conveyor belt keeps running smoothly.

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Ok but let’s be honest here for a second. If I do content for the 25 time again and I’m getting bored to death while playing healer as a ex healer main back from the stone ages how aren’t the jp healer mains don’t feel bored? Are these people machines or dead inside ? Like even me being on depression meds and having really bad moments in my daily life and I still wanna not play any healer in pf savage, but I do it then because so many healer players are absolute ass on healer then you would think.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

To be fair, it's possible that the population we see currently active in JP forum nowadays weren't the same ones we would see years ago; say, ShB early launch era or even further back.

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This is very likely to be the case. We're quite deep into the content cycle, many raiders or log chasers who would have objections to the current state of job design are very likely unsubbed at the moment. So what we have right now is probably the same on the JP forums as it is on the EN forums, people who likely only really play healer casually who just want to heal basically.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I mean if their end goal is to basically make the gameplay Everquest but without any of the interesting class mechanics then it's still going to get quite a lot worse. It's just a question of how long that process is going to take.

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Look, i'd kill to have a Warden from EQ2. It had so much busted crap.
What do you mean infinite MP?
Tank gets regen proc on simply being hit.
Basically a dance partner.
Group immunity to bind effects just by being in the party.
Immunity to aoe for 30 seconds, save for the MT.
Death prevention (when targets takes lethal damage, hp can't be recuded below 1 and target gets a regen).
Group wide death prevention, yes, you read that right.
Targeted Hallowed Ground on a 5 min recast, why the fuck not. =)

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Tinfoil hat time:
JP has a way higher savage clear rate than both EU and NA, especially their pug raiding.
Now could this be because the JP playerbase in general is more skilled? Maybe, no idea.

But their way of raiding is absolutely like a conveyor belt, or like fastfood. Players are basically interchangeable, you queue for savage in duty finder, zone in, get a macro posted, pick your spot (the really are only 2 for healers) and never deviate from whatever the incredibly safe macro strat tells you, you kill the boss and move on.
And it seems to work quite well for them, so they probably want to keep it that way, make the individual players in your party matter as little as possible.
So it is in their best interest to keep individual responsibilities as low as possible, because if the healer is suddenly required to contribute, or even able to do, more than spam their completely overtuned healing kit it potentially throws a wrench into their perfectly functional conveyor belt.

This would also explain why tank responsibilities/difficulty have been reduced to basically nothing and why they're perfectly happy with their ridiculous self sustain, less chances for tank players to mess up, more convenient boss kills, the conveyor belt keeps running smoothly.

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From the few JP players who raid on NA; your Arthars and etc. The overall sentiment is the casual raid scene is actually worse than NA/EU. Or at the very least, comparably skilled. Their significantly higher participation rates are largely attributed to the mentality they should do the content because the developer's made it for them. JP has to truly despise something to wholly abandon it. Which is why Criterion really stands out as a colossal flop.

Otherwise, yes. They take whatever first week strats are used and adamantly refuse to make any adjustments. It's certainly an... experience watching JP raid compared to NA. You'll almost immediately notice the sheer amount of downtime forced on tanks and melee. The idea of say, changing to Kindred uptime for P11S would just... never happen. Perhaps a perfect example of the different mentalities between NA and EU would be fights like E12 or P10, where two light parties are knocked back. JP healers will not budge and you're expected to Tomahawk until the mechanic resolves. Meanwhile, NA tanks/melee have already cancelled knockback and zipped towards the boss--expecting the healers to move up into melee range.

And that's exactly it. The easier everything becomes, the safer it is. So they can get their reclears done and move on.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

Ok but let’s be honest here for a second. If I do content for the 25 time again and I’m getting bored to death while playing healer as a ex healer main back from the stone ages how aren’t the jp healer mains don’t feel bored? Are these people machines or dead inside ? Like even me being on depression meds and having really bad moments in my daily life and I still wanna not play any healer in pf savage, but I do it then because so many healer players are absolute ass on healer then you would think.

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JP doesn't tend to think that way. You're in a group environment. Therefore, you do what benefits the group and "not be selfish." Changing healers to have more focus on DPS only benefits them, which can be considered a selfish thing to ask for. Hence why they like massive tank sustain. It makes content smoother and more efficient.

Just to be clear, I'm sure plenty of JP players don't feel this way but it does seem to be the "average joe" mentality.

The fact that square enix bends to this design is just so stupid though

You could “make the content smoother” by giving every healer an AOE benediction with zero cast time 70% mitigation and cost No MP while every tank had an endless invuln and the DPS could two tap the boss

Where does the pursuit of this philosophy reasonably end