Did Zenos ruin Endwalker

He did, but to be fair, his character got stale around the end of the main Stormblood msq.

Honestly, Endwalker has so many problems, and he's the least of them. As much as I hate the character, the knock-off end of the Gurren Lagann movie fight part is one of the shining moments in the turd in the punch bowl that is the msq.

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

I think it's also to do with the passage of time. Clichéd as it may be to pin it on people's memories, and I'm definitely not going to insist it has to be the case with you or any other individual who takes issue with the forum as it is, I see a lot of Shadowbringers fellating that very overtly leaves out the multitude of sore spots and pacing errors, only mentioning the highs they experienced.

And that's just one expansion ago. I would postulate that there's something to that, at least for some people.

But yes, the stakes were also less high-- though I would say that they were still pretty high to the point of demanding alacrity, personally. Azys Lla having a shield was fine, the stuff you did there was also not that egregious, but having to go back and chat with Matoya and go into the Great Gubal Library alone to retrieve a tome definitely could've been nixed if they so wanted to trim the fat. That said, I did enjoy the moments with Matoya and the dungeon, so I obviously don't mind that it was there. Just trying to keep my feelings out of it in this situation. There were a few other spots in HW as well, if I recall.

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The passage of time point definitely has merit. I now look back and realize that a lot of story beats, especially in ARR, have been exactly like that, but I do think that it's also kind of a mindset at the time.

When you were new, you were excited and you're just willing to overlook any slight in the video game, or at least that was for me. I wasn't really analyzing the story beats very much cause it honestly just took me 2 weeks to beat ARR MSQ to 4.2.

I think the fact that we're kinda getting used to it is a factor. Like there's probably a bunch of other games where you being new think X feature is fun and exciting when the old players think it's stale because they just spam it all over the place.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

The passage of time point definitely has merit. I now look back and realize that a lot of story beats, especially in ARR, have been exactly like that, but I do think that it's also kind of a mindset at the time.

When you were new, you were excited and you're just willing to overlook any slight in the video game, or at least that was for me. I wasn't really analyzing the story beats very much cause it honestly just took me 2 weeks to beat ARR MSQ to 4.2.

I think the fact that we're kinda getting used to it is a factor. Like there's probably a bunch of other games where you being new think X feature is fun and exciting when the old players think it's stale because they just spam it all over the place.

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That's a common situation, yeah. I also just think it's something that can scarcely be avoided in most cases. That said, writing can always be adjusted and improved, so that's not an excuse for it or anything. It's more with content cadence and type that I can see it being hard (if not outright undesirable) to keep shaking it up. Writing is a different beast and is ever-changing, even if some things stay the same.

I do think there's also merit to your point about the stakes. They definitely weren't universal at that juncture, but I still thought they were pretty high. Either way-- every time I replay the MSQ or a part of it, I notice something new, "for weal or for woe" as the characters would say. Sometimes it's a neat little detail or callback or what have you, other times it's realizing that a story I really enjoyed has a lot of problems when your mind hasn't cleansed it of the negatives. (I still like the story overall, though, but like everything, it's not flawless.)

Yes... Zenos was an entire waste of development time...

Meteion on the other hand I found brilliant... she is very much in our present time... people today in the real world feel dishonored... stepped on and anything just because they sneese.... Meteions extreme sensivity and more to peoples feelings and the sourroundings represent that well and also the will be believe in what whatever high up clown says online for mostly his own benefit.

All Garlemald and more it is very much spot on what is happening in the world right now or what it can turn into.

Endwalker ruined Endwalker. Zenos was a very small part of that. The incredibly padded out story, the boring cast, the sheer amount of navel gazing and empty platitudes, the lack of payoff on longrunning storylines that had been built up for years, and the lack of tension.

I'm of the mind that it was consumable, and definitely didn't cause any issues personally when digesting 6.0

But personal handling aside<Since it's a easy route to judging people's tastes>

it did it's task, and did it well enough.
and by far could of been worse.
How worse.., about as bad as those who wished the Scions to die worse. Without weighing the consequences. Or the fact they devs could of written it better if they had more time.

<Gotta praise Ishikawa for making those adjustments to the plot and gaining approval so soon after their Story Trip>
[Regardless if you like the story or not]

Whilst you can say that they went back to insert a few nods to 6.0 or other instances.
They also tied other miscellaneous things, cutting down the amount of loose threads.

Zenos did what was expected of him.
With opinion remaining unchanged, or flip-flopping based on the person asked.

If Zenos ever came back, I find it highly unlikely that it'll be in his Garlean Body..,
Or His Ex-Imperial Prince History.
<Potential New Beginnings after a new Birth. Specially if it's a world we're pushing into a better direction.>

That said, it's unlikely we'll run into him.
<Unless that __ took an express trip/cut the line for reborn souls.>
[Would we even be that old near the end of the next 10 years? To have to run across a young "Zenos".
Or run into a Shard of Him in another realm.
Despite the fact he was Unrecognized enough by ancients to be allowed the idea of one gone forever, never known, and slipped through the cracks]

TLDR:
He did is job.., Wilk he stay an outsider forever, who knows.
Likely never to come back in the body/memory of a Garlean Prince though.

But it's a shame that Emets line dies. <Despite all the good Emet did though, LoL. jk>

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

Kind of got ruined when coming out of the Dead Ends you're greeted by the most obnoxious villain and forced to let him help you and get forced into a 1v1 fight with him.

The final boss of Endwalker is literally a 1v1 fight with him???

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Forced to let him help you...or else we lose. You're complaining quite LITERALLY for nothing.
Zeno is our final battle in a 1v1...yeah! The guy who's been our foil since SB. The guys who's been waiting for us for all or ShB as well as all of EWs base story. The guy who went so far as to become a reaper and even plan to become Zodiark himself to fight us. Yes he was our final boss.
The very mirror of us, the player

Zenos was the best part of Endwalker for me. He far from ruined it, and I'd actually go as far to say as he redeemed it. This game hyped up Zodiark like no one else's business, and to reduce him to a pawn of the scheme of a PoS ancient who takes over the body of one of the most PoS whiny arseholes in SB really took the cake on an abysmal failure. Then we have mommy Hydaelyn who depending on your perspective could be considered a genocidal she-demon, or a messiah/shepherd whose foresight is only rivaled by her tendency to gamble and play Russian roulette with man's entire existence.

Zenos however, we always knew what we got with him. A being of insurmountable power rivaled only by the WoL. He never waivered, and was always consistent. He didn't fly across the great expanse to save the world, he did it to be side by side with the only friend he ever had, and the only enemy that could contest him. Zenos taught the WoL to seek out their limits, and then transcend them. That was in his words, "his gift to us". Sure, he was mostly one dimensional, but it's also all he needed. He was never meant to be this multi-faceted character filled with complexities like Emet, and it's also difficult to seem him being that way. He's a monster, a foe, and quite possibly the only character who sees deep down into the heart of the WoL and knows he/she is an adventurer above all.

Despite all the hatred this guy gets, I think he is absolutely fantastic. I hope we never see him again.

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Originally Posted by DayHealer

Zenos and Meteion did.
Zenos legit could have his proper death in Stormblood.
Meteion concept was good, but her presentation and development were terrible, specially for a 10 years arc final antagonist.

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I feel the same. What the story did to Varis was crap as Zenos didn’t care about Garlemald anyway.

I was fine with Meteiin. Just not the part with the Scions

Each to their own and all, but I really liked how Zenos was handled. He is not my fav villian, but he is an interesting one with his obsession with the WoL. Could it have been fleshed out a bit more? Sure, but thats just another sacrifice of EW concluding by 6.0. He had some great moments, such as the body swapping, Alisaie giving him a verbal thrashing and “That, I cannot deny.” It made for a great conclusion to the expansion, in my opinion.

The only thing I do not get is why people think he will be back. They have done that trick before. What would be the point? Especially as we have Zero, who is empathising just how cruel he was.