I assume no more tank/heals for a bit
next expac is most likely just 2 dps or just 1 dps
personally i hope its 1 range 1 caster dps to even out what we have.
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01-24-2023, 11:11 AMDuskane
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01-24-2023, 06:14 PMSeraphorI don't think we can say they've "actively avoided two DPS since Stormblood" simply because it's only been two expansions and there was a more pressing need for a new Tank and Healer. This would be imparting an intention that we have no evidence for. We don't know they've "avoided" not releasing a Tank or a Healer, simply because we've only had two opportunities and each of them needed a Tank or a Healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroman3003
Now that there isn't a pressing need for a Tank or Healer, the roles that are most 'needing' are Caster and Scouting.
And yes, they do use gear sets as justification, it was specified to be the reason why we got Reaper as a Maiming job specifically, despite the fact that it doesn't wear heavy armour and by all means could have been Striking or even Scouting. But we've had a Scouting job slightly more recently than we have Maiming. Not least, gearsets are a concern, for gearing up. Having jobs share a gearset is favourable to players so that they are able to gear up multiple jobs. Meanwhile having too many jobs on a gear set increases competition for loot. So gearsets are a valid justification for introducing/limiting jobs in certain roles.
There are many ways to define the job roles, and this seems to be intentional. Without one singular definition, it gives them freedom to be flexible.
1. You can have Tank/Healing/DPS sure. This puts us at 4/4/11, but that doesn't mean we have 7 DPS jobs too many. We all knows that's not how the playerbase has split itself and going by the jobs commonly played, there's a ratio of roughly 1:1:3 or maybe even 1:1:4, which would suggest we need between 1 and 5 more DPS jobs to balance it out. But of course, that's a loose argument because...
2. You can have Tank/Healer/Melee DPS/Ranged DPS, which puts us at 4/4/5/6. Again, considering there is a greater need for DPS than Tanks and Healers, this would suggest we're current short 1 Melee DPS.
3. You can have Tank/Healer/Melee DPS/Phys Ranged DPS/Caster DPS, giving us 4/4/5/3/3. Now we're in need of two ranged DPS from each role.
4. Then there's the gearset method, Fending/Healing/Maiming/Striking/Scouting/Aiming/Casting. 4/4/2/2/1/3/3. Now we need Scouting.
5. You could even have Tank/Healer/Physical DPS/Magical DPS for a 4/4/8/3 ratio. If you really want to cement the justification in for a Casting job.
The point is you can use any and all of these role paradigms to justify adding a job, they're all equally as valid, so you need to look further to how long it has been since a job of a specific role was last added. How long have players been waiting for a new job in a particular role?
Going with paradigm 4 just because it's the most comprehensive and includes the most roles:
Tank: Shadowbringers, 3 years
Healer: Endwalker, 1 year
Maiming: Endwalker, 1 year
Striking: Stormblood, 5 years
Scouting: ARR, 8 years
Aiming: Shadowbringers, 3 years
Casting: Stormblood, 5 years
You can give each of these paradigms different weight, and I can completely understand giving paradigm 4 the least weight right now considering that paradigm 3, the next most comprehensive, turns that "Scouting: 8 years" into "Melee: 1 year". This clearly puts Caster at the forefront.
If you go by the time since last job, the next time Tanks would be due is next time an Aiming job is due, or a Physical Ranged DPS, Both have been 3 years. Yet Tanks have 4 and Phys Ranged have 3, which puts Phys Ranged at a higher priority. This is to illustrate how you have to use both of these justifications together.
My point here is, between both role balance and time since last job in that role, at no point does Tank or Healer come up as a job in need of representation, and I think 4 of each role is a fairly well rounded selection. The only other role will so many options is the Melee DPS role, if you don't consider gearsets to be an important factor. There is no other way of reasoning a further breakdown for tanks and healers. OT and MT isn't a thing anymore, and Regen and Shield healer is a weak argument considering they can stack just fine now. -
01-24-2023, 08:18 PMForsakenRoeIDK, seems more like it's design would lend itself to being a tank. Well, to being a healer first and foremost, cos of the whole AST thing, but since we can't really do that without people (rightly) saying 'hey wait a minute, isnt this just Noct AST 2', tank it is. Some people in WOW have been asking for a Shaman Tank spec, that uses Earth barriers, since vanilla, so it's not like 'control the elements to protect, not destroy' is somehow a completely alien concept. IDK, it'd have to do a LOT of things differently if it were a caster, imo, to set it apart from 'BLM but it uses the other 3 elements'. And it being a class focused around dropping 'many Dotons instead of one' does not appeal to me in the slightest, I wanted Salted Earth gone for EW, not kept on lifesupport with the new move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
edit: also this excerpt from the wiki summarizes it pretty well
Anyway, isnt geomancy based on feng shui, the concept of good and bad fortune caused by the 'relative positions' of things? I wonder what role has a big focus on the 'positioning' of things... well, ok, 'had', before they made every boss jump middle for their set-piece attacks
Considering how BLU is now, not at all. The idea that we should accept our favorite job from previous games being in this one in a hobbled state because 'hey at least it got in' is pretty insulting tbh. Tell a PUP fan that 'yeh so PUP will be in the game, but it's gonna be as a Lords of Verminion rework, and you'll only use it once a week for the weekly challenges, then forget it exists', i'm sure they'll be delighted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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01-24-2023, 08:33 PMSeraphorAgain, you seem to be ignoring vast swatches of Geomancy lore. It is not just Noct AST. That is a tiny and irrelevant aspect of specifically Hingan Geomancy. Wider Geomancy, particularly Yanxian Geomancy, is much more different.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
And why is every caster just "BLM but different spells"? We already have three casters and they're not all the same, you can have different job mechanics.
What is stopping non-limited BLU from just being "BLM but with different spells" exactly?
The Geomancer's we've actually fought against, are all offensive casters, and they're certainly not tanks because they relied on minions to take hits for them and died almost instantly.
Melee DPS?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Certainly not tanks. Tanks are responsible FOR positioning some bosses, but they don't do anything with different positions, In fact, they are necessarily always directly in front of the boss, and they can't do anything to change that.
A caster with positionals, and maybe less focus on cast times to counterbalance, could be interesting.
This is a bizarrely salty and spiteful take on things.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
I would much rather have them in a limited capacity than not at all.
Blue Mage gives you the ability to set a much wider combination of enemy skills that can do much more than regular job skills can. It provides a unique battle mode that isn't possible with regular jobs.
Beastmaster could be an expansion of the Companion System. Allowing you to tame other companions besides the company chocobo, and giving you the ability to bring them into duties.
While there's certainly a trade off in the amount of content they can be used in, these are far more interesting ideas that 'just another regular job' that you only take into the latest tier raid 4 times a week. The game needs to branch out of that kind of endgame mentality and offer more options. Limited jobs are a great way of giving us addition and meaningful side content that isn't just minigames. -
01-24-2023, 09:09 PMForsakenRoeYeh, instead it WAS a job I'd take into the weekly 3 Carnivale challenges (not anymore I got lazy) and a one-and-done admittedly kinda-fun challenge to do some old raids for a morbol mount. But that was once, now I don't use it at all. Next time it gets an update it'll get used for all of 20 hours and then forgotten about again for another several years. The 'Limited Job' model is not futureproof. It's barely even present-tense-proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Here's an idea: think of Island Sanctuary. Now think of it again, but instead of 'Island level/EXP' its 'Beastmaster Job EXP'. Gameplay's the same, it fits the whole BST aesthetic, going out capturing animals. But the fact it'd have BST's name attached would make a lot of people angry, because they wanted BST as a potential main.
And no, I'm not spiteful, I just don't think it's a good idea to tell people 'yeh your favorite got in, but at this cost'. That, and the whole future-proofing thing, imagine if we have like, 3? Limited Jobs, the devs would have to create 'mini expansions' for each of them. That'd mean more devtime spent on them, which would mean taking more devtime out of other things potentially. Not a trade I'd want to make
Oh, and as for the 'offensive caster' geomancers we fought, you mean the ones in Swallows I assume, the ones that 'summon adds' and 'attack with reskinned WHM skills'? The only thing that stood out about them was the incessant bonging of their bells, and the ones in the tunnel. The ones who use a skill that we learn as BLU, so they don't exactly have any claim to uniqueness either. Not exactly much to make a job out of, but hey, they managed to make AST from the scraps of what they tried to make into Chemist, and one single move from FFT, so anything's possible I guess. But based on what I remember, I'd argue it's fairly open what role it becomes, and I'd prefer to see it as a tank, that's all. If there's more to it's lore that cements it as being a caster, then okay. Just means the lore was delivered in such a way that it sailed right over my head, which I guess isn't actually all that impossible, considering all the 'tatame-bato' and not-Monkey-King stuff. Maybe I was mentally checked out of the Four Lords lore the whole time -
01-29-2023, 06:18 AMseolhyun
next class: caster and maybe tank
scouting merged into striking -
01-29-2023, 10:16 AMRenathrasAgreed. I wish BLU could do a bit more, but I like how it's implemented in the game. If FFXIV's combat system wasn't so rigid, I could see more Jobs being like it. Another thing is that we don't know how many things are "BLU specific" vs "Limited Job specific", since we only have the one. So having another would flesh that out, as well as give more interesting comps for some of that content. Right now, all Limited Job content is just BLUs. Sure, you can Mimic different Roles (now), but it's still a BLU party and it would be cool to see that mixed up with PUP or BSMs in there. Given the Devs aversion to DoT and Pet Jobs, it may be the only way to get them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
While the data is limited as you say, I think the results speak for themselves. When NIN was released (2.4, maybe?), it caused massive problems with que times. In SB, when we got 2 DPS, it did the same thing. A probably we didn't have in HW (when all three were released). Thing is, Yoshi P said doing three at once was really too much for the Devs, so they probably will never do that again. ShB saw Healers as the bottleneck in ques. EW didn't...really see a hard bottleneck, thankfully. Probably because we got a new Healer while a Tank Job was the marque Job of the Expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
But point is, I don't see them ever doing 2x DPS and nothing else again, unless they make an expansion heavily story and encounter based on Tanks AND Healers together. They're very mindful of things like ques and rough player Role populations for content.
We had no more "need" for a Tank in 5.0 than in 4.0, nor "need" for a Healer in 6.0 than in 4.0 and 5.0. So I don't think that's really why they did it. They added a new Tank because they wanted to try to get more people into Tanking. And in 5.X, there was a large shortage of Healers (though this wasn't new, there kinda was in SB and HW as well between the "Healers are Green DPS - GET IN CLERIC STANCE!" harassment and people in general fearing the responsibility of Healers), so in 6.0, they added a new one after saying in 5.0 they didn't see anywhere to go to add a Healer. The situation was dire enough to force their hand.
And in both cases, an attempt was made (which somewhat succeeded with GNB and didn't really with SGE) to make them more appealing to DPS players so that DPS players would try out the other Roles and hopefully either main them or dual-main into them. With GNB, this seems to have somewhat worked, as a lot of DPS players seem to enjoy GNB's (relatively) higher DPS and a rotation that leans more into damage dealing and is more akin to what DPS players like in a playstyle. With SGE, this worked...far less well, since while it heals by doing damage, it only does so on a specific target, its damage kit isn't significantly more advanced than the other Healers', and its healing mechanics are actually a bit more complex, making it harder to learn. Qatana Ravel has likely seen an early end to the careers of many a budding SGE.
By this token, we'll add one more Ranged and one more Caster and then never add a new Job?Quote:
My point here is, between both role balance and time since last job in that role, at no point does Tank or Healer come up as a job in need of representation, and I think 4 of each role is a fairly well rounded selection.
Also: Look at AIN in the DF. It's almost all Tank or Healer outside of 24 mans (which go between Healer and DPS since there are only 3 Tank slots in them) or Trials (which go between all three)
Based on that, it would seem there is not, in fact, a good role balance right now. I think the estimates of the playerbase are around 15% Tanks, 18% Healers, and the rest DPS. And even there, far more DPSers play Caster than the others, proportionately. This would indicate we should be adding a new Tank and new Healer.
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One thing I think would be interesting is adding a new Tank and new Caster, and then re-adding Diurnal and Nocturnal to AST. That would EFFECTIVELY be adding a new Job to each role while not really having to do much work on AST since they basically would just revert it to ShB with a few tweaks.
"But then we'd have only 2 Pure and 3 Barrier Healers!"
Right now we only have 1 Pure (WHM), 2 Barrier (SCH and SGE), and 1 Pure/Barrier hybrid (AST) anyway. AST has only one less shield than SCH (Nocturnal Sect and Celestial Intersection vs Adlo, Succor, and Seraphic Veil/Consolation [which don't stack with each other so only count as one]), so per 2 minutes, AST has effectively 2 mitigations (Collective Unconscious 60 sec CD), one party shield (OR strong single target shields on people with Nocturnal Sect having a 120 sec CD), and 4 charges of a single target shield (Intersection, stacks to 2 with 30 sec charges) per 2 minute window. (WHM only has 1 Temperance every 2 mins, 4 Divine Benisons max 2 at a time, and no party barrier)
...so it's not like it'd be any worse than now, a lot of ASTs liked nAST, and it would be adding a "new Job" for the price of basically nothing in Dev time.
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So I could see 1 Tank, 1 Caster, and nAST being added in 7.0. They did say a big AST rework is on the way as it is...which is terrifying, honestly. Caster is also the role most in need of an addition, since the last one was in SB and the number of Caster players is high, meaning they need more diversity of choices.
Then in 8.0 and on, they could just add 1 Job per expansion, starting with a Ranged. -
01-29-2023, 07:22 PMLyth
I suspect that they want to move down to one new job per expansion, but know that there will be resistance to it. I predict a magical ranged job, although I do want to see them merge ranged down into a single category. If they do this then we'll have 6 melee, 7 ranged (+1 limited ranged job). They can then just cycle through tanks, melee, healers, and ranged without issue.
The next additions that I want to see for each category are:
Tank: Shapeshifter that can partially transform limbs into weapons and shields, inspired by Esmeralda from Xenogears. Either that or a mecha-themed Puppetmaster similar to Anise from Tales of the Abyss.
Healer: A ranged healer with more of a ranged physical than ranged magical design. Perhaps one that throws potions to generate ground effects that heal. Totems? Ofuda? Geomancy?
Melee: A Mystic Knight based either around quarterstaves or whips. Something mobility focused.
Ranged: Voidmage inspired around Loghrif's spacetime magic that is DoT focused. Spell effects that let you freeze the DoT timer or accelerate them.
Limited: Onion Knight. Collect every piece of equipment in the game. -
01-29-2023, 09:20 PMRithy255They shouldn't merge ranged and casters, they don't play really the same considering one has cast times, this isn't really heavensward lol, I understand why you would be worried if they tried to add 5 of ranged and 5 of casters before adding another melee but I don't think they'd ever do that, also considering the 1% buff you get it seems really bad to bring any classic physical ranged job now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
They should balance out ranged/melee but they already do that we have 9 melee jobs (5melee/4tanks) 10 ranged jobs (4healer/3caster/3physical ranged), they've always generally had one job up-close and one job at ranged with each expansion, My guess is Next Expansion is: Tank/Caster 8.0 will likely be: Melee/Phys ranged, I don't think we're going to get a healer for a long long while due to how the barrier/pure split works currently it feels like we won't be getting a healer in quite a long time they will likely add in a pure healer and give back both sects to Astro or something, which i don't think they're gonna go back on at least for another expansion, until its been enough time, It looks like they will need the equal amount of barrier/pure, obviously it wouldn't really break the game if we somehow had 3 pures and 2 barriers but it seems like something they would think about. -
01-30-2023, 11:17 AMLyth
Let's face it, cast times matter about as much as positionals do nowadays, and neither is an excuse to do more dps. They can cross-pollinate the Ranged role actions from both sets if you like.
They'll always prioritize DPS over Tanks and Healers because more people play the former, but I do hope that they add more Healers soon. I like the role in pretty much every game that I play outside of this on, and I think the main limiting factor is that I'm not a big fan of spellcaster aesthetics. I think even the addition of a single Healer job that doesn't rely on MP would be enough to force the role into new design spaces.