Patch 6.21 Job Adjustments Overview:

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Sorry but tanks are already doing more DPS than healers, so the higher contributor shouldn't make the sacrifice, same priority with using Limit Breaks among DPS, granted in some cases, where it's less disruptive to rotation.

Secondly, most healers have so many healing options via oGCDs and in WHMs case lilies, to the point, using Clemency will have zero impact on facilitating healers ability to DPS, not sure why people actually think that's a thing lmao.

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PLD is historically and thematically able to contribute to significant healing and defensive utility outside just doing damage in classic FF games, so I think this could be an exception.

It probably wouldn't be enough to change too much in Ultimates or Savage raids, but in Extreme trials and especially dungeons, tanks having access to these healing tools can contribute a lot for healers.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

PLD is historically and thematically able to contribute to significant healing and defensive utility outside just doing damage in classic FF games, so I think this could be an exception.

It probably wouldn't be enough to change too much in Ultimates or Savage raids, but in Extreme trials and especially dungeons, tanks having access to these healing tools can contribute a lot for healers.

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So what?

There is nothing saying devs need to stick religiously to source material, they can draw some inspiration from it without being overbearing, thus allowing the job to be balanced against others within it's role, while not egregiously overstep on the toes of other roles.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

You're job is going to become a Fell Cleave tank like the rest and you are probably not going to like it.

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No, I don't think it'll be a Fell Cleave tank. However, I suspect some big changes for it.

Atonement may end up being removed, Holy Spirit/Circle may become oGCDs in the same line as Edge/Flood, Requiescat may end up being merged with Fight or Flight, and all 3 Blades spells may become Weaponskills. I could see them reducing the cooldown on that merger of Fight or Flight and Requiescat to 20s, and make Confeitor a 1m oGCD that enables the Blades spell combo after being used. The burst window they'd vie for would be the Requiescat -> Goring Blade -> Royal Authority combo -> Confeitor -> Blades combo. That would be 7 GCDs and a single oGCD, fit into a 20s burst window. Holy Spirits would likely be used in between the GCDs, giving PLD a very powerful burst while not really removing anything but Atonement. This would also fix the Skill/Spell speed split, essentially fixing PLD without horribly destroying the job.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

So what?

There is nothing saying devs need to stick religiously to source material, they can draw some inspiration from it without being overbearing, thus allowing the job to be balanced against others within it's role, while not egregiously overstep on the toes of other roles.

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Because it's cool, fun, makes the game and the job better. If you think otherwise, you're wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Make PLD do 2% less damage than the other tanks to compensate and ensure that doesn't stop them from clearing any fight day 1. Make healers have more complex DPS rotations, consider re-adding Cleric Stance because it also made the game better and healers more engaging.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Because it's cool, fun, makes the game and the job better. If you think otherwise, you're wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Make PLD do 2% less damage than the other tanks to compensate and ensure that doesn't stop them from clearing any fight day 1. Make healers have more complex DPS rotations, consider re-adding Cleric Stance because it also made the game better and healers more engaging.

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I actually like the Idea of Paladin doing the "least dps" but having the most strong utility and defensives, Currently this isn't the case by far Paladins current utility of having 2 party wides (one being a bit more situational because of positioning, the other not benefiting the pld) They also have one less Personal in exchange for this, I don't think right now Paladins defensives or utility are in a great spot, also a big amount of your self sustain is uncontrollable.

I think some problems are that you can't make Paladin do too little damage if people want enrages to be harsh, but you also can't make paladins utility Required for a fight. I would like to see more diversity in tanks but at the same time realistically looking at the current game balance it makes it hard to choose a tank for extra utility and defensives over one that just does more dps, you'd have to make PLD's utility pretty much required or so powerful it could contend with damage somehow.

Personally I think a good middle ground is giving PLD slightly more defensive utility and a bit of a buff in that department in exchange of a smaller amount of Damage compared to GNB, I don't think going on either side of the extreme, we can't make PLD do "too little" otherwise no ones going to use it even if the utility was pretty good, but I don't think PLD needs to be exactly on par with gunbreaker (currently it does because its general kit isn't even that good). All tanks right now with how enrages, how damage is heavily favoured, all tanks should be in 1% of each other.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I actually like the Idea of Paladin doing the "least dps" but having the most strong utility and defensives, Currently this isn't the case by far Paladins current utility of having 2 party wides (one being a bit more situational because of positioning, the other not benefiting the pld) They also have one less Personal in exchange for this, I don't think right now Paladins defensives or utility are in a great spot, also a big amount of your self sustain is uncontrollable.

I think some problems are that you can't make Paladin do too little damage if people want enrages to be harsh, but you also can't make paladins utility Required for a fight. I would like to see more diversity in tanks but at the same time realistically looking at the current game balance it makes it hard to choose a tank for extra utility and defensives over one that just does more dps, you'd have to make PLD's utility pretty much required or so powerful it could contend with damage somehow.

Personally I think a good middle ground is giving PLD slightly more defensive utility and a bit of a buff in that department in exchange of a smaller amount of Damage compared to GNB, I don't think going on either side of the extreme, we can't make PLD do "too little" otherwise no ones going to use it even if the utility was pretty good, but I don't think PLD needs to be exactly on par with gunbreaker (currently it does because its general kit isn't even that good). All tanks right now with how enrages, how damage is heavily favoured, all tanks should be in 1% of each other.

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Yep, I agree with this. Currently WAR and GNB have too much utility than what I think they should thematically have, and I think they would be better suited with less utility but slightly more DPS. I'd like to see WAR with least utility highest DPS, GNB with low utility second highest DPS, DRK with moderate utility moderate DPS, and PLD with most utility lowest DPS. However the DPS disparity shouldn't be this massive as it is currently, nor do I think that the utility should be required, but it definitely makes things feel more comfy and just adds more playstyle options while remaining viable.

Imagine if PLD wings were more like WHM and gave a small AoE regen without needing to be channeled instead. Things like this. It's not like SMN's utility is ever necessary, but it's fun to have. It feels good throwing an Intervention regen on someone who just ate a vuln stack or was res'd. I'd like to throw Clemancy on them as well but can't because it'll kill DPS.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Yep, I agree with this. Currently WAR and GNB have too much utility than what I think they should thematically have, and I think they would be better suited with less utility but slightly more DPS. I'd like to see WAR with least utility highest DPS, GNB with low utility second highest DPS, DRK with moderate utility moderate DPS, and PLD with most utility lowest DPS. However the DPS disparity shouldn't be this massive as it is currently, nor do I think that the utility should be required, but it definitely makes things feel more comfy and just adds more playstyle options while remaining viable.

Imagine if PLD wings were more like WHM and gave a small AoE regen without needing to be channeled instead. Things like this. It's not like SMN's utility is ever necessary, but it's fun to have. It feels good throwing an Intervention regen on someone who just ate a vuln stack or was res'd. I'd like to throw Clemancy on them as well but can't because it'll kill DPS.

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I believe in utility for all tanks
Here's how I'd generalise tanks: (This is my prespective, I know most people won't think the same way as me)
Warrior: Should be the "big axe" damage tank, I think self sustain and being pretty good defensive is still good for it but it should lack in it's utility as it's main drawback
Gunbreaker: Should be a jack of all trades master of none, 2nd in damage, decent utility and pretty decent defensives
Dark Knight: Should be similar to Paladin in utility but a bit less, should focus on dark barriers, Should have some blood drain over time. (A lot of people want drk to be the "dps tank" but I rather it focus on barriers and draining)
Paladin: Should be great defensively and good at utility but be the lowest dps out of all the tanks, Should focuse a lot on healing utility small barriers and defense boosting utility, should be lowest (but not by a lot, I still want people to play it lol).

I do think all tanks should have decent defensives and at least a bit of utility, Balancing it with how important damage is, can be a bit tricky but right now Paladins utility is way too situational to be a reason why it's used over other tanks and Paladins don't even work well defensively right now.

I agree Casters are really diverse like SMN/RDM/BLM compared to something of melee dps (they all function pretty much the same, give a 120 raid buff, unless samurai who makes up for it with damage), Casters on the other hand shine in different situations, like taking a RDM for raising utility and learning the fight, bringing a blm for raw output, bringing a smn for a raise (not as good as rdm) but also a lot of mobility, the only problem i have with casters (and phys ranged) is that they should be doing slightly more then they are now because fights are more and more designed around melees now.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I actually like the Idea of Paladin doing the "least dps" but having the most strong utility and defensives, Currently this isn't the case by far Paladins current utility of having 2 party wides (one being a bit more situational because of positioning, the other not benefiting the pld) They also have one less Personal in exchange for this, I don't think right now Paladins defensives or utility are in a great spot, also a big amount of your self sustain is uncontrollable.

I think some problems are that you can't make Paladin do too little damage if people want enrages to be harsh, but you also can't make paladins utility Required for a fight. I would like to see more diversity in tanks but at the same time realistically looking at the current game balance it makes it hard to choose a tank for extra utility and defensives over one that just does more dps, you'd have to make PLD's utility pretty much required or so powerful it could contend with damage somehow.

Personally I think a good middle ground is giving PLD slightly more defensive utility and a bit of a buff in that department in exchange of a smaller amount of Damage compared to GNB, I don't think going on either side of the extreme, we can't make PLD do "too little" otherwise no ones going to use it even if the utility was pretty good, but I don't think PLD needs to be exactly on par with gunbreaker (currently it does because its general kit isn't even that good). All tanks right now with how enrages, how damage is heavily favoured, all tanks should be in 1% of each other.

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Uneducated question here: didn't they update pld back in shb to be able to block magic attacks? With how frequent sheltron is, wouldn't that mean they have a fairly solid point of mitigation despite having less personal mitigation buttons than the other tanks?

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Uneducated question here: didn't they update pld back in shb to be able to block magic attacks? With how frequent sheltron is, wouldn't that mean they have a fairly solid point of mitigation despite having less personal mitigation buttons than the other tanks?

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Here's the main issue Shelltron aka Holy Shelltron is pretty weird and doesn't work well with stuff such as the new raids DOT effects, I'm pretty sure (I've only heard stuff) but Paladin takes more damage compared to somethinig like a gunbreaker in general, Paladin sure has plently of self sustain but can't control a big chunk of it unlike warrior or gunbreakers sustain.
Also Shelltron I believe takes around 23 seconds so basically the same amount to fill up as any other tanking cd It wont fill up on down time, storing two is nice but it isn't a massive benefit.

Comparing Paladin to warrior, PLD doesn't benefit from their own Raid wide, PLD lacks a personal like thrill, PLD lacks anything like equilibrium (no clemency doesn't count xD). So I believe Paladin In general just has worse self defence capabilities then any other tank (Gunbreaker/Dark Don't really lack in those either), mind you it isn't by a massive amount, MT Paladin is somewhat decent (Prolly better to have another tank) because during your req window your gonna heal from autos, but i do think in general the req healing needs to be removed or toned down so we can put it on something Paladin can control.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Uneducated question here: didn't they update pld back in shb to be able to block magic attacks? With how frequent sheltron is, wouldn't that mean they have a fairly solid point of mitigation despite having less personal mitigation buttons than the other tanks?

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They changed it back in Stormblood to allow block to work on magic damage. The problem with block is every other restriction that still exists.
Block does not work if you character is "incapable" of blocking at the time, this means while you're casting anything (granted this pretty much only applies to hard cast Clemency nowadays) or if you're stunned/frozen/paralyzed/or in any other way incapacitated.
Block does not work on any damage over time effects, this is especially bad in the current tier because almost all tank busters leave a dot, making the block portion of Holy Shelltron entirely useless outside of the initial hit.
Block does not work on any critical hit, they simply ignore both block and parry. (this is only really an issue in dungeon trash pulls since bosses can't crit anymore)



These restrictions were completely fine when block was able to mitigate more damage more often.

Back in Stormblood your Shield's Block Strength and Block Rate kept increasing with higher itemlevel shields to a point where block would have a ~35% chance to proc and mitigate ~35% at the end of the expansion. You were also able to make yourself immune to critical hits for 15 seconds via Awareness.


In ShB however SE capped Block Strength and Block Rate to 20% and Awareness was removed from the game, making Shelltron nothing more than every other tank's 20% mitigation but worse since it still suffers from those old downsides on top of PLD not generating any oath gauge when it can't attack anything.