WHM Desperately Needs An Overhaul

WHM button bloat? Where and definitely not as much SCH or AST.

Jokes aside, WHM lacks a lot of buttons (oGCDs to be precise) and they have a couple of dead spells that are pretty useless after Lilies get introduced.

Cure 1 is basically dead and I wish they would just it upgrade into Cure 2.

Medica 1 is only there when you run out of Rapture (so barely if you're playing right).

WHM is just lacking and stale at the point and I wish people would realize that. We should be pushing for WHM to get improvements across the board, not just beg for it to be playable.

Believe me, I know that Button bloat is a crock of an argument, especially on WHM but that won't stop people from complaining about it all the same. I remember trying to add Afflatus versions of Cure 3 and Medica 2 and people just complained nonstop about button bloat. If we can't even suggest it without being scrutinized by other players, what makes us believe SE will ever implement it?

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Believe me, I know that Button bloat is a crock of an argument, especially on WHM but that won't stop people from complaining about it all the same. I remember trying to add Afflatus versions of Cure 3 and Medica 2 and people just complained nonstop about button bloat. If we can't even suggest it without being scrutinized by other players, what makes us believe SE will ever implement it?

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Button bloat isn't just about button-count, though. It's about efficiency -- about a particular capacity taking considerably more button-space than needed.

The Lily system is merely a means of potency-recovery on up to X potency or healing GCDs per minute. At present, it is constrained by (A) only being available to a selection of healing types/procedures, and (B) by requiring a trio of lilies to actually recover that potency. But that's a matter of implementation, not the core of the idea. Technically, the core needs no additional buttons, down from the current 3, to produce the desired capacity, and with neither of those constraints. Almost doubling that extra button count required to only slightly better deal with one of the constraints... is not efficient.

Again, cloning each heal into an Afflatus version thereof is just the absolute least efficient way provide the Lily system's capacity / make use of its core feature. Even if we remained dead-set on the capacity being generated through GCD skills the potency of which cannot be recovered except in sets, adding iconic skills like Cure III to that system could as easily be handled by hybrid or 'smart' heals. An <Afflatus Cure III>, for instance, could as easily just... do simultaneously both the effects of Medica and Cure III -- healing for a Medica's worth of healing at Medica's range and then further healing those within a Cure III's range of the target for the difference between Cure III and Medica's potencies. What little loss possible in "meaningful choice" would be far exceeded by the more iconic element of optimizing Cure III's bonus.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Button bloat isn't just about button-count, though. It's about efficiency.

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You're really going to try and argue this when we still have Cure1 and equivalent spells on all healers?
When Play/Crown Play exist?
When Fey Blessing literally could have just been turned into a 2nd charge of Indom? And this is only regarding Healers.

Are you going to argue Six Sided Star and Anataman exist because of efficiency?
Are you going to argue that DRK's Shadowbringer being its own skill vs just overlapping it with Living Shadow was done for the sake of efficiency, ESPECIALLY after they merged Consolation and Seraph in the same expansion that Shadowbringer was introduced?

If you're going to argue Button Bloat is there to be more efficient, then I suggest coming up with some absolutely flawless logic on why all these exceptions exist but Afflatus Medica 2 and Cure 3 are "inefficient".

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

You're really going to try and argue this when we still have Cure1 and equivalent spells on all healers?
When Play/Crown Play exist?

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You're arguing, then, that the existence of button bloat means that we should take the most sludge-hammer, bloated means possible to extending our toolkit?

Moreover, those are actually separate issues. Play exists so that your Cards cool immediately upon being Draw-n, rather than upon being Play-ed. While I'd argue that the second active skill (Play) should be hot-swapped atop the first and therefore take the same key, they have a reason to be separate actions.
Anatman still holds its own purpose: downtime preservation of resources; until such time as we create some sort of passive system by which Disciplined Fist stops draining whenever no enemies are in range, its target capacity can't easily be handled by fewer buttons.
Six-Sided Star, though undertuned, still holds its own purpose as uniquely a finisher and mobility skill together that cannot easily be met by other means.

What unique capacity or purpose would having a separate button each for an Afflatus version of Cure II, Medica, Cure III, and Medica II uniquely provide as compared to any more efficient means of reaching Lilies' more general purpose of mobility/weave-space and, especially, potency-recovery?

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If you're going to argue Button Bloat is there to be more efficient, then I suggest coming up with some absolutely flawless logic on why all these exceptions exist but Afflatus Medica 2 and Cure 3 are "inefficient".

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First, you are strawmanning my position with its exact opposite. I said that button bloat is a matter of whether a capacity can be granted more efficiently, as opposed to just a job having 'more than X' buttons. I have never argued that button bloat makes things more efficient; I've literally defined whether something is bloated by how efficient it is (especially, relative to other means of achieving the same or a better result).

Second, pointing out one instance of bloated design --your Afflatus <every possible healing GCD> as separate buttons-- does not require that I note every other existing instance of bloat. It's already widely agreed that they are bloat. Unless your idea provides some unique capacity, however, such just goes to show that the extra buttons you'd want to devote to this cannot be anything but bloat.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You're arguing, then, that the existence of button bloat means that we should take the most sludge-hammer, bloated means possible to extending our toolkit?

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I'm arguing that SE is using Button Bloat as an excuse and little more. They aren't actively trying to seek out ways to consolidate toolkits due to the fact that there's still a plethora of bloat in the game. I can think of a myriad of ways of reducing button bloat. They could literally do away with Anatman entirely and just have Form Shift refresh the Discipline Fist buff, just like they had it refresh GL. They could hot-swap Shadowbringer's over Living Shadow since, just like Seraph and Consolation, they don't need to be separate buttons. You can make Cleric Stance into WHM Eukrasia that turns all our base skills into their Afflatus Forms. You can literally remove Aetherflow and all Aetherflow skills from SCH and rework the Fairy to do everything that Aetherflow currently does. There are ways to reduce button bloat but for whatever reason, SE fails to do so time and time again.

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What unique capacity or purpose would having a separate button each for an Afflatus version of Cure II, Medica, Cure III, and Medica II uniquely provide as compared to any more efficient means of reaching Lilies' more general purpose of mobility/weave-space and, especially, potency-recovery?

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When I first suggested Afflatus Medica 2 and Cure 3 (which I had christened Afflatus Remembrance and Delectation), it was back in ShB as a means of making Misery DPS neutral by making them use 2 Lilies and because it seemed like the most likely skills to be added going into EW because I believed they would expand on the Lily system more. Seeing as they added Aqua Veil and Lilybell instead, we'd be in the exact same scenario we're in now of just adding in skills for the sake of the expansion. However, unlike Aqua Veil and Lilybell, there's at least a possible way to consolidate Afflatus Medica 2 and Cure 3 where Aqua Veil and Lilybell are kind of stuck unless they just get flat out removed. Also, considering that Medica 2 and Cure 3 are among our most expensive spells, having free versions of them with WHM's current MP economy would help a lot more than either Aqua Veil or Lilybell ever could.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I'm arguing that SE is using Button Bloat as an excuse and little more.

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Which has what remote relevance to not wanting to spend 5 buttons on lilies when the capacity (potency recovery, burst, and weave-space) could be more smoothly granted by far fewer? Why would you read into my position something that has nothing to do with it? I am not SE. I am merely arguing that you'd want to apply the very same logic (reasonable consolidation, etc.) to your own idea, because even if WHM is not yet at the button counts of AST and SCH, which we both already agree deserve consolidation, that doesn't stop bloated design from being undesirable.


That said...

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They could hot-swap Shadowbringer's over Living Shadow since... they don't need to be separate buttons.

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A ST non-snapshotting DoT on a 2-minute cooldown that ideally ought to be popped before raid buffs =/= a 1-minute, 2 charge linear AoE oGCD that ought to be popped within raid buffs. Play DRK in dungeons and see how well you like only being able to use a powerful AoE behind a ST DoT rarely useful in trash.

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However, unlike Aqua Veil and Lilybell, there's at least a possible way to consolidate Afflatus Medica 2 and Cure 3 where Aqua Veil and Lilybell are kind of stuck unless they just get flat out removed.

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Yes... IF you consolidate them, which is what I suggested (finding less bloated means of achieving the same or better functionality).

But let's also note that in moving those capacities onto the Lily system, you'd have then put Aquaveil and Lilybell (which, btw, are not merely Afflatus Medica II or Afflatus Cure III) on a shared resource cost with your other Lily skills and, most likely, force them onto the GCD.

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having free versions of them with WHM's current MP economy would help a lot more than either Aqua Veil or Lilybell ever could.

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If that were the vital concern, though, the far more direct, comprehensive, and obvious solution requires no additional buttons: reduce their MP costs (or that of WHM's overall kit per average use) or re-buff Thin Air. You don't spend 2 buttons on what can be better solved passively.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which has what remote relevance to not wanting to spend 5 buttons on lilies when the capacity (potency recovery, burst, and weave-space) could be more smoothly granted by far fewer?.

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The reason why I didn't bother with reasonable consolidation for Afflatus Medica 2 and Cure 3 is because Idgaf about button bloat. I only bother with making suggestions that cater to that asinine subject because otherwise I get stuck in pointless arguments with people that argue button bloat, like we're currently having.

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A ST non-snapshotting DoT on a 2-minute cooldown that ideally ought to be popped before raid buffs =/= a 1-minute, 2 charge linear AoE oGCD that ought to be popped within raid buffs. Play DRK in dungeons and see how well you like only being able to use a powerful AoE behind a ST DoT rarely useful in trash.

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Given my personal stance on Button Bloat, I don't want them to. I'm just stating possible ways that SE could justify consolidating skills, however asinine they might be.

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But let's also note that you've then put Aquaveil and Lilybell (which, btw, are not merely Afflatus Medica II or Afflatus Cure III) on a shared resource cost with your other Lily skills and, most likely, force them onto the GCD.

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Because I legitimately suggested that in the past, at least for Lilybell anyways.

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If that were a vital concern, though, the far more direct, comprehensive, and obvious solution requires no additional buttons: reduce their MP costs (or that of WHM's overall kit per average use) or re-buff Thin Air. You don't spend 2 buttons on what can be better solved passively.

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More boring way if you ask me and it's one of my main gripes about the button bloat argument. It's just boring. No creative solutions for solving a problem, just the same old same old

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

[Dealing with MP issues directly would be the] More boring way if you ask me and it's one of my main gripes about the button bloat argument. It's just boring. No creative solutions for solving a problem, just the same old same old

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How is devoting extra buttons to directly copy over the healing kit into an Afflatus version each any less boring?

You have a problem caused by a Thin Air nerf. That problem is your MP expenditure per typical minute. That does not require two additional buttons to fix. Nor does needlessly throwing additional buttons at things make a kit any more interesting.

Would Lucid Dreaming somehow be more interesting if it were instead two buttons? Would MP economy be any more interesting if Tetra and Benediction each likewise gave MP and we were tuned around their maximum MP per minute, thus making their use less flexible?

When you deal with basic capacities only through specific buttons you then constrain those buttons' usage to those capacities; you can't make Lilies your sole solution to MP issues without then reducing their ability to be used for, say, potency-neutral bankable burst since just making them potency-neutral is already going to increase their usage and thereby their effect on MP economy.

Just make a given feature's implementation do what it's actually supposed to do and then deal with remaining issues as directly as possible. It's that simple, and dealing with issues straight-on does not make things more boring -- only less convoluted and less multiply constrained.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How is devoting extra buttons to directly copy over the healing kit into an Afflatus version each any less boring?

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And how are Solace and Rapture any different? They were by no means necessary at all. They could have simply made Lilies generate as they currently do and just made Cure 2 and Medica instant, free cast spells while you had a Lily but they added Solace and Rapture for whatever reason. So are you going to advocate for their removal?

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You have a problem caused by a Thin Air nerf. That problem is your MP expenditure per typical minute. That does not require two additional buttons to fix. Nor does needlessly throwing additional buttons at things make a kit any more interesting.Would Lucid Dreaming somehow be more interesting if it were instead two buttons? Would MP economy be any more interesting if Tetra and Benediction each likewise gave MP and we were tuned around their maximum MP per minute, thus making their use less flexible?

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And couldn't you just add 2 charges of Lucid Dreaming? They didn't need to add Astrodyne. A 2nd Lucid Dream charge would have solved the problem all on its own but they wanted to make seals useful for something. How is wanting to make Lilies more useful as DPS and sustain tools any different than Astrodyne. It's the exact same concept.

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Just make a given feature's implementation do what it's actually supposed to do and then deal with remaining issues as directly as possible. It's that simple, and dealing with issues straight-on does not make things more boring -- only less convoluted and less multiply constrained.

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Because that's worked so well so far hasn't it? I sure don't miss Selene's old effects at all, her implementation is to heal after all. I'm sure no one liked the old card system for AST either. It was just DPS buffs, Bole/Spire/Ewer totally didn't have different effects at all. I have seen the light.....
....and it's BORING.