Current top 100th percentile on P1S since 6.08 buffs

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Originally Posted by Sequora

A lot of people don’t like simplicity. It’s actually the reason a lot of people don’t like the new summoner. Balancing around complexity is bad game design. You either completely balance around it, meaning the most complex job is the best without question, or you don’t balance around it at all.

Mobility only really helps during progression. Ask any black mage or red mage. Once they’ve learned a fight, that lack of mobility stops being a hindrance.

Regardless of people saying that SMN is a ranged physical, it’s not coded that way. Summoner takes up a caster slot. You don’t get the party bonus if you don’t have a mch, dnc, or brd. DNC has low personal damage, but it brings up the damage of the party by a large amount.

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i feel you are mistaking two different thing.... easier and bland... why people don't really like the new summoner, is because it's bland and boring... and what you said about mobility is not really the point, any jobs is easy passed a certain time to play... i'm sure a lot of people can do them cycle without even think, it don't means the jobs is not more "demanding".

what we are talking about more complexe jobs is stuff like, by example:
let's take the samurai, you have 2 buff (speed and damage), 1 dot, the kenki, the sen, meikyo, seinen/guren and finally now we have namikiri, while making sure to stay alligned with the party buff and over this we have to do positional (what was ease up) naturally you work all of this over your cycle that is about 2 minutes windows. (namikiri cd)
let's take the summoner in comparaison, you have the aether charge, bahamut/phoenix, carbuncle damage buff and your 3 jewel, naturally we can say too that you have a few cast time. i don't say that the jobs is too easy or such more that nothing make it really amazing exept the flashbang of titan. you can even compare if you want the number of button needed for play summoner compared to the samurai and check if everything is used often or not.

samurai didn't get partybuff, it's goal is to bring dps, but in counterpart it have a lot to take account. to follows, to respect for bring the most damage. and i don't take account of the combo and such. is not the point.

a jobs that is more demanding needed to be rewarded if well played... or people will not play it. it's fun to work your ass to be better if in the end someone else come and do better with less work. is not a question to balance the game around this, is about fairness. samurai is complexe because he don't bring buff, it ask to use a lot of skill for bring the best of his dps, even the simple change of order of some skill can have a huge impact on it dps.

and when i see my jobs is overshadowed by other jobs that have partybuff that are less demanding, i wonder why i play my jobs?

the question about balancing dps around jobs more demanding is not even the point. because the fact that they was demanding from the get go was intended we don't come saying other jobs must be weaker by a lot, simply that samurai (in this case) don't get screwed. i understand that they want people to play reaper and monk because they have change it (even if i found the change of monk ankward on some point) but the whole mess that is the balance was never as bad as this... we have a tank that can solo boss... we have dps that bring party buff that deal far more damage than the selfish dps... we even have jobs that are in deep need of change for become better.

finally, and that the most important point, not every jobs must be of the same difficulty. you can have jobs that is easy to play but hard to master and jobs that is hard to play from the get go.. but in all case, if someone play is jobs really well he must be rewarded... and the balance of the jobs must be respected. or some jobs will simply loose them place in the game. like in past... selfish dps have is role like party buffer have it's role... it's don't means either is more important than another... as samurai i'm overjoyed to be with good dancer, ninja, dragoon and such... because i know that i can do better with them help. and doing better myself will help the group. that all...

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

I'm curious, which jobs does everyone think should be top and bottom three and why? Or should they all just be perfectly equal across the board?

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this question is kinda easy to answer because it's more about role than anything, if talk of the dps in general the two tops normally must be blm and sam... why? because no party buff them role is to bring dps and that all. after this it depend mostly about the party buff bring accross the board. from what i know, some jobs have lower dps because of them mobility, other because they have powerfull buff. even if personally i feel some jobs are in need to be more powerfull. sadly for the machinist he get in the ranged dps and that why they have make it soo weak , what i don't understand why since they have 2 partybuff one is a tanking one (tacticians and the other one is a role one outside fight)

don't get me wrong for me the dps order is balanced around 3 think:
- melee or ranged
- partybuff or not
- mobility

some say is only in progression that mobility shine what is false, in some combat the fact to be able to continue to dps while moving can be really helping.
but in the end is how i see the thing...

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

some say is only in progression that mobility shine what is false, in some combat the fact to be able to continue to dps while moving can be really helping.
but in the end is how i see the thing...

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What if we put a DPS malus on melee when a boss has no positionals or its hitbox is half the room?
That would make nonsense, right?

Then why would it make sense for ranged to be gutted in every content?

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

That's not an absolute, people also design strats for ease of execution. At higher skill levels things like uptime are better handled but jobs shouldn't be balanced around the best players (nor the worst). Rdps also doesn't have to worry about positionals or target swapping for adds or bosses moving for whatever reason.

If you take all of that into consideration and say a melee could get (random numbers here) 6-8k depending how good they and their group are but ranged physical will almost always get 7k regardless, that's not meaningless until everyone's at a high enough skill level, which will also take time with new encounters. At that point you could say ranged falls behind but when everyone's that good does it even matter? As for how it all maths out in reality it doesn't look good in the parses but that's also incomplete information. Wonder if Yoship ever addressed this in an interview.

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It might come to you as a surprise but what role handle the baits of the Liquid Hells on the first phase& Ranged phys / caster. I can tell you, my UCoB group was double caster and it wasn't the BLM that was doing the mechanic. Groups also task the ranged players to handle mechanic shoutout because melee is zooming on the boss. Point being, people give them more tasks. People give as little personal responsibilities for mechanics for melee and casters to keep their uptime. That's how mobility comes into play. If you had a Dragoon or a Black Mage handle Liquid Hell on UCoB phase 1, they'd lose a lot of DPS compared to BRD or MCH. Of course. And... Of course nobody will have them do that! They'll leave the job to the ranged physical. There are ever so many mechanics that actually lowers your uptime because people just find the good strats.

Why do you time PF is a wild fire for P1S pug clears when the strat is "brain dead tank damage down strat" and not a single tank want to do that strat. You think they want to lose damage because your DPS can't handle something as simple as swapping positions with the tank? Nobody would want that and yet... somehow people do it that way. People that take the L are just by far less skilled and it has nothing to do with mobility :( if anything, mobility means you'll be expected to handle more mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

Job complexity shouldn’t dictate damage.

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Yes and no. Job complexity dictates damage range inherently. The more complex a job is, the higher the difference between the top and bottom players.

Damage should be balanced base off of some form of "average" play. Complex jobs should have outliers that transcend the intended balance (I'm not talking about from 5th to 1st in damage, more like 4th to 3rd) to reward those players since they're taking a risk and can easily be under where the balance intended. IMO.

Balance shouldn't be done based off the highest possible performance, otherwise complex jobs are less likely to be used. Conversely, balance shouldn't be done based off the lowest possible performance (I realize that's not really possible, but just completing the point).

But, they absolutely shouldn't balance the average DPS of a job lower than another because of complexity. I agree with that.

I just disagree with the idea that summoner should just be a blatantly weaker job than it’s counterparts.

Brd mch and dnc are all competing with each other. Even if they’re weaker than other jobs, they provide a party wide 5% stat bonus.

Summoner is competing with RDM AND BLM. If red mage is better summoner, in utility AND the damage becomes too much greater than you will start to see groups that are actively blacklisting summoners.

Why take a summoner, when a red mage can do everything they can do but better?

All that being said, I think it might be a good idea to revisit the idea of removing rez from summoner so that we’re only paying the mobility tax.

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Skill > Job Choice, sure.... Only and only if the jobs are balanced.
Wanna know what the job distribution for first week is like?
80~90% BRD.
1~2% PLD.
15~25% RPR.

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When the game makes it so easy to change jobs yeah I'd expect more people to take that advantage. But all those parses people love to tout on about are all clears, every job is capable of clearing. If someone hates Bard and just wants to play MCH they can.

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Prange would be an entirely dead role were it not for the arbitrary party bonus SE added to force their inclusion.

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That's probably their intention, to encourage more melee. If people could perform just as well without having to worry about developing strategies around allowing half the dps to be able to hit the boss, why bother playing melee or BLM?

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

this question is kinda easy to answer because it's more about role than anything, if talk of the dps in general the two tops normally must be blm and sam... why? because no party buff them role is to bring dps and that all. after this it depend mostly about the party buff bring accross the board. from what i know, some jobs have lower dps because of them mobility, other because they have powerfull buff. even if personally i feel some jobs are in need to be more powerfull. sadly for the machinist he get in the ranged dps and that why they have make it soo weak , what i don't understand why since they have 2 partybuff one is a tanking one (tacticians and the other one is a role one outside fight)

don't get me wrong for me the dps order is balanced around 3 think:
- melee or ranged
- partybuff or not
- mobility

some say is only in progression that mobility shine what is false, in some combat the fact to be able to continue to dps while moving can be really helping.
but in the end is how i see the thing...

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Allow me to clarify: Which dps should be top and bottom three in rdps (edit: raid-contributing dps, not ranged dps): how much the job contributes to the raid itself including its own buffs on others and excluding buffs from others?

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

When the game makes it so easy to change jobs yeah I'd expect more people to take that advantage. But all those parses people love to tout on about are all clears, every job is capable of clearing. If someone hates Bard and just wants to play MCH they can.



That's probably their intention, to encourage more melee. If people could perform just as well without having to worry about developing strategies around allowing half the dps to be able to hit the boss, why bother playing melee or BLM?



Allow me to clarify: Which dps should be top and bottom three in rdps: how much the job contributes to the raid itself including its own buffs and excluding buffs from others?

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Top personal DPS should be SAM, BLM, MNK, and then MCH should be just underneath, as the other melee DPS provide more utility.

The bottom is a little trickier. DNC should be the lowest DPS for obvious reasons. Next I think would come BRD and RDM. Red mage is the Dancer of casters, and I hope they continue to lean into this direction in 7.0 and on. They have the most utility out of the 3. If summoner is going to continue to have the mobility it has, then maybe get rid of rez in 6.1. They said they thought about removing it.

I am curious to see what is going on in the JP forums. I feel like they probably have more sway than NA or EU folks.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

Top personal DPS should be SAM, BLM, MNK, and then MCH should be just underneath, as the other melee DPS provide more utility.

The bottom is a little trickier. DNC should be the lowest DPS for obvious reasons. Next I think would come BRD and RDM. Red mage is the Dancer of casters, and I hope they continue to lean into this direction in 7.0 and on. They have the most utility out of the 3. If summoner is going to continue to have the mobility it has, then maybe get rid of rez in 6.1. They said they thought about removing it.

I am curious to see what is going on in the JP forums. I feel like they probably have more sway than NA or EU folks.

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It's pretty much the same thing here, just with more wild swings between copium and rage.

100th Percentile?

No such thing. You cannot be part of the group of 100 and still be better than all 100 of them.

Someone needs to point out how hilarious that error is to that log parser website.

Wait, aren’t those technically against TOS anyway?