Death unto Dawn page up

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

Character deaths aren't some sort of requirement for a good story.

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Seeing as how the end of shb and 5.3 went, i’d disagree with that statement.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

I cared about Haurchefant a great deal and that's why his death had a huge impact on me. On the other hand I did not have enough time to get attached to Moenbryda so her death did nothing to me.

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The thing with Moenbryda is that even though she wasn't around for that long, her importance isn't the impact she personally had on us but the impact she clearly had on the people who knew her within the story. We might not personally feel sad but we can see that her friends miss her deeply and continue to think and talk about her. Urianger in particular, of course, but Yda took it particularly hard at the time as well, and now we have Mikoto talking about her as well. Even Krile mentions her in the Eureka storyline.

The sadness doesn't come from her death, and I don't feel sad about her directly, but I do towards the other characters when we see them reacting to her death.

Even for Haurchefant, I'm not sad about him anywhere near as much as I'm sad for Edmont and Francel and all the other characters that you can speak to in the wake of his death who are clearly affected by it. Our own character included.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

How is that tension high though, if nothing comes out from it? If we know that everything’s going to be okay and everyone is going to survive, what’s the point then?Theres no tension just because he says oh i’m gonna end the world. But we face no consequences from it which, considering ishgard housing is coming in 6.1, already kind of proves nothing significant is gonna happen lol.

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If you're told at the start "nobody is going to die" then that kills the tension, but (for all that people complain) there is still a fair chance that somebody will. It's still a possibility up until the credits roll and you can relax and be glad that everyone was okay in the end.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Seeing as how the end of shb and 5.3 went, i’d disagree with that statement.

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I'm not sure what you mean? ShB and 5.3 are widely praised as the highest points in the story and yet the only deaths were the villains, who you fully expect to die. It rather proves my point, you don't need to kill people off for a story to be good and emotional.

I'm not saying "a character dying makes a story bad", that would be absurd, just that it isn't some metric you need to check off a list in order to be considered a good story.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

I'm not sure what you mean? ShB and 5.3 are widely praised as the highest points in the story and yet the only deaths were the villains, who you fully expect to die. It rather proves my point, you don't need to kill people off for a story to be good and emotional.

I'm not saying "a character dying makes a story bad", that would be absurd, just that it isn't some metric you need to check off a list in order to be considered a good story.

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Both end of ShB and 5.3 relied on random plot armor and plot holes to prevent character deaths (both involving graha). If you need to rely on random plot armor just to prevent a character from dying, that’s bad writing.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Both end of ShB and 5.3 relied on random plot armor and plot holes to prevent character deaths (both involving graha). If you need to rely on random plot armor just to prevent a character from dying, that’s bad writing.

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The crystal memory transferrence had already been established prior, it didn't come out of nowhere. That's not plot armor.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

The crystal memory transferrence had already been established prior, it didn't come out of nowhere. That's not plot armor.

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I’m talking about Graha’s plot armor at the end of ShB where it was stated numerous times and even shown in Kholusia, the farther he is from the tower the weaker he is. Yet somehow after being shot and dragged away the farthest from the tower he’s ever been, he can accomplish a feat he was only able to do after failing 5 times whilst full power with the tower (summon WoL).

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Except one of the main themes of the story is loss and learning to let go. It's disingenuous to make that a major factor of the narrative only to have everyone close to the main character survive everything all the time no matter the odds or how bad the situation is.
Would Thancred's arc in ShB work if Minfilia was still alive inside Ryne and could just speak through her whenever she wanted? Would anyone really care a fraction as much about Haurchefant if he was still just sitting in Camp Dragonhead making cameos during holiday events? You shouldn't just kill characters left right and center, but when it's narratively appropriate characters absolutely SHOULD die.

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Absolutely. Though I will say I never really did care for Haurchefant at all at least in part because the writing tried too damn hard to make you like him and make him feel important to you in some way. The way the game forced you to interact with him in the way they did actually turned me off of liking him.

Anyway, yes, death isn't necessarily the be all and end all of storytelling. It's more that it's sort of the final cost and a form of ultimate consequence for the choices made by the WoL and others. The biggest issue with death in FF14, though, is that they have decided to play so fast and loose with it with way too many cases of characters "dying" but then coming back for one reason or another. I wouldn't personally feel that death is a necessity in the storyline if the writers themselves would stop bringing it up and using the potential of it as motivation/punishment. It's like when you're out with your friend and they keep talking about how amazing this new dessert restaurant is but they never say where it is or what it's called. You wouldn't care at all about the amazing desserts at this awesome new restaurant if your friend didn't keep bringing it up.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

Absolutely. Though I will say I never really did care for Haurchefant at all at least in part because the writing tried too damn hard to make you like him and make him feel important to you in some way. The way the game forced you to interact with him in the way they did actually turned me off of liking him.

Anyway, yes, death isn't necessarily the be all and end all of storytelling. It's more that it's sort of the final cost and a form of ultimate consequence for the choices made by the WoL and others. The biggest issue with death in FF14, though, is that they have decided to play so fast and loose with it with way too many cases of characters "dying" but then coming back for one reason or another. I wouldn't personally feel that death is a necessity in the storyline if the writers themselves would stop bringing it up and using the potential of it as motivation/punishment. It's like when you're out with your friend and they keep talking about how amazing this new dessert restaurant is but they never say where it is or what it's called. You wouldn't care at all about the amazing desserts at this awesome new restaurant if your friend didn't keep bringing it up.

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I agree, and I also think the amount of baiting where it's expected there's not going to be any follow-through - and then there isn't - doesn't help, either.

I normally say that Y'hstola, as the mascot for FFXIV, is downright immortal because they wouldn't kill her off since they need her for spin-offs. Which only makes her SEVERAL fake-outs infuriating instead of concerning (when she "sacrificed" herself in Rak'Tika I was fully prepared for her to return before the 5.0 story ended, didn't expect her to return before the RAK'TIKA story ended).

Funny enough, Dissidia Opera Omnia throws that justification out the window and ACTUALLY makes the main cast killable.

The game takes place (initially) in the World of Respite, where the heroes (and villains) of different worlds are taken to rest. While most of the cast have had their memories taken, some of them, like Aerith, remember their journeys, and that they're dead. This even turns into a plot point in Act 2 when both Lyse and Papalymo remember his sacrifice, giving them closure IN ANOTHER GAME. The XIV cast are kind of unique in that their game, and thus their stories, are still ongoing, so the DFFOO team just... has more issues writing around them.

Thereby making it so even characters who die in XIV can still show up in spin-off games, removing their immunity. That said, I'm not a fan of death for death's sake, or random death for "shock value", but at the same time I'm getting tired of the fake-outs just because characters are fan-favourites. And of the "consequences" the Scions have suffered, only Thancred's has stuck in any way (since he now needs someone to imbue his ammo with aether, making his "lone infiltrator" thing riskier, Y'shtola's blindness is MENTIONED to be draining her, but that hasn't been an impediment yet).

Bottom-line: The story team doesn't HAVE to kill off characters to tell a story, but they should commit if they're heading in that direction or the "sacrifices" feel cheap.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Here's hoping our old friends from the Brotherhood of Ash show up in an extra scene or if you get some extra dialogue with them.

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As someone who likes to go around to see if anyone even remotely relevant has dialog updates after each patch*, yeah that would be nice. (and hopefully "and more" on the patch notes includes Allied Tribe quests too).

* I may not have encountered everyone, but it seemed like there wasn't much reaction to 5.4 outside of Camp Overlook. (sadly there's still several people who are close to the city state leaders or the scions who are still stuck in "heavensward mode")