Elemental Wheel, What's the point?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, I don't mean "like <insert unrelated irrelevant stuff from ANOTHER GAME here>" What are you talking about?

Alright then. Let's remove all but three classes from the game, and name them "tank", "healer" and "DPS." Or, we can keep the uniqueness and distincitveness of each class, and make party formation less of a mindlessly simple endeavor. Like how archers do damage from the back and are more vulnerable and lancers are closer up and a little sturdier.

If you want a simple game, go find a simple game, while the rest of us who like a deep class system where every class has its own strengths and weaknesses can keep it.

now this is a more meaningful post, which explains the problem they see and identifies what needs to be fixed.

The game can be balanced without making all classes the same, removing elements or taking any kind of wild mechanic-destroying action. Instead, the actual balance problems need to be addressed.

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Have you ever played anything besides XI if you have you would know there are 100's of ways to make classes feel different w/o an elemental wheel.

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Have you ever played anything besides XI if you have you would know there are 100's of ways to make classes feel different w/o an elemental wheel.

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there are 100s of ways to make classes feel different, sure. But there's nothing wrong with an elemental wheel. You're proposing to take a system that's not broken and stomp all over it because you personally don't like it, not because it's a bad system.

Hundreds of games have had elemental systems and worked just fine and dandy. Elements are not a defective concept.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Alright then. Let's remove all but three classes from the game, and name them "tank", "healer" and "DPS." Or, we can keep the uniqueness and distincitveness of each class, and make party formation less of a mindlessly simple endeavor.

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Now I'm getting the feeling you're purposely trying to ignore the point of my posts.

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Like how archers do damage from the back and are more vulnerable and lancers are closer up and a little sturdier.

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This makes sense. And also has nothing to do with the conversation.

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If you want a simple game, go find a simple game, while the rest of us who like a deep class system where every class has its own strengths and weaknesses can keep it.

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It's not about simplicity, but inclusiveness. FFXI taught me that designing content to be exclusive to tier 1 and leaving everyone else out in the cold was a bad idea. I feel bad for all the people who liked PUP, BST and the other jobs that were never seen as fit for events and endgame. That's a philosophy that should not carry over to this game.

By the way, the ability to switch classes is not an excuse, as those who want to level every class to cap and gear them will still do so. There are people naturally inclined to do that sort of thing, you know.

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The only reason you were ever on the "wrong job" was because of balance issues. These balance issues have nothing to do with elements- just because this or that thing was too strong or not strong enough and SE took forever to address those kinds of problems.

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So why would we want to facilitate said balance issues making a reemmergence? FFXI prioritized "uniqueness" over functionality. Too much of one thing, and the proof is in the pudding.

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FXI taught me that designing content to be exclusive to anyone outside of tier 1 was a bad idea.

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The problem is that you see "tiers." All jobs can and should be on the same "tier." The thing is, it's almost impossible to achieve that level of balance without making everything too similar. The fact is, none of that content you describe was literally excluding any job at all, it was the playerbase that made up "tiers" and made up who could go where. The fact is, you could actually clear most of that content with whatever jobs you wanted, if you found a group of like-and-open-minded people to do it with.

I pretty much slap anyone in FFXI that places each job in a "tier" and don't play with them. I play with linkshell mates and friends who know that the game doesn't actually have to be like that.

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I feel bad for all the people who liked PUP, BST and the other jobs that were never seen as fit for events and endgame.

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Despite the mainstream elitists that made up tiers and declared this and that job "unfit" for endgame, many players like myself went on to prove that endgame was perfectly doable with those jobs.

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That's a philosophy that should not carry over to this game.

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Abiout the only extent to which I see this in the game right now is with BLM vs THM and people preferring THM over BLM because THM can set cure and raise and thus play something other than the role it was *built* for which BLM specifically exists to emphasize. This is mostly a defect carrying over from FFXI where people feel like just because you're a mage you have to be able to cure and raise, even if that has nothing to do with your job's role and the fact that EVERYONE has MP and anyone else could set those abiltiies instead.

I didn't look into this really deeply but the old elemental wheel has changed at some point, apparently making mobs astral or umbral. This would need to be checked better, but it seemed to work for most mobs I have encountered.
Most of them (or all?) are weak to a certain element, get "normal damage" from 2 other elements, and reduced damage from 3 others. An Ixal for example is wind and thus an "astral" mob, he's weak to ice, gets normal damage from earth and water, and gets reduced damage from lightning, fire and wind.
Still, where is the water spell?!

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The problem is that you see "tiers." All jobs can and should be on the same "tier." The thing is, it's almost impossible to achieve that level of balance without making everything too similar. The fact is, none of that content you describe was literally excluding any job at all, it was the playerbase that made up "tiers" and made up who could go where.

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Indeed, and one is fed by the other. Game design and mechanics fed the playerbase's mentality. So game design is responsible for how things turned out. They're not these two entities that are separate from each other.

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The fact is, you could actually clear most of that content with whatever jobs you wanted, if you found a group of like-and-open-minded people to do it with.

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I'm aware of this too, but what I look for is mass acceptance to the point that no one bats an eye at the notion of bringing X class. Going back to WoW, I haven't seen people throw fits over having a Ret paladin or enhance shaman in a group since the burning crusade, where both were intentionally weaker than the "real" damage dealers because the devs believed the asinine notion of such design making them "unique" and how the buffs and utility made up for lacking damage. If you fast forward to now, you'd be very hard pressed to see anyone say anything about a Ret or Enhance being in a group; by the same token, they now perform fairly close if not on the same level as the "real" damage dealers...who still get invited to groups, to boot. I see nothing but winners under that scenario.

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I'm aware of this too, but what I look for is mass acceptance to the point that no one bats an eye at the notion of bringing X class.

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This is what we call pigeon-holeing or cookie-cuttering and it's impossible to eliminate. Even if you achieved perfect balance, some players would see something as better than the others and people would bandwagon onto it. It's a problem that just can't be solved. You can minimize it to an extent the smoother you get the balance, but it will always be there. Just make friends with people who think like you do so you can enjoy the game the way you want to, confident in your knowledge that you can play the content on your favorite job and still win just fine. It's really not worth drastically changing systems to try to solve, because it's not realistically solveable. You will have people bandwagoning, you will have elistists declaring something to be better than another no matter how you design the game.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This is what we call pigeon-holeing or cookie-cuttering and it's impossible to eliminate. Even if you achieved perfect balance, some players would see something as better than the others and people would bandwagon onto it. It's a problem that just can't be solved. You can minimize it to an extent the smoother you get the balance, but it will always be there. Just make friends with people who think like you do so you can enjoy the game the way you want to, confident in your knowledge that you can play the content on your favorite job and still win just fine. It's really not worth drastically changing systems to try to solve, because it's not realistically solveable. You will have people bandwagoning, you will have elistists declaring something to be better than another no matter how you design the game.

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You need to look up the late Everquest Online adventures for the PS2. That job balance, and eve class was unique would love to give it's statement.

Wizard had Lightning Fire Ice spells, but also had several none elemental spells. Very powerful high damage. And it's Master class of Sorcerer had unresistable aoes, with short range so I could use a fire spell against any fire based mob as long as the mob wasn't made purely out of fire.

Necromancer- Their pets were the strongest of the petters, but they had very high DoT damage and could even spam heals if they chose the blood pact line for their epic quests. They were DD/Sub-healers. Wizard had to get a big boost because Necros were so strong.

Enchanters- the caster "bards" but it could also have "any" pet. Either beast/human. It also could have a suit of armor to be a tank. It could help regen MP/Hp very well.

Alchemist- Add later into the game, but it was more than welcomed at raids for it's master class called Transmuter which they had a pill called Ogre pill. It gave you a massive Stamina/HP/Strength boost and turned you into an ogre.

Mage- was the real elementalist over wizard, because they got all the elemental spells, and they had elemental pets. They were constantly in 3rd place to Enchanters, because Raging Rhino claimed by an enchanter would just mess crap up. What really pisses me off was this maghe got "Call of the Hero" Something FFXI failed so badly I want to slap them. Call of the Hero had a 5 minute recast, but wasted all MP to teleport one person to ANY location. Doesn't matter where they were, or if they had access, the mage could warp another player to them. FFXI stupid mantle they released after the 3 mini expansions sucked hard.

Cleric-Heavy armor or clothe, hell they could tank if they wanted to, we called them clanks. Their heals were the best and buffs were awesome.

Druid and Shaman- They had buffs that Clerics didn't have, their heals were not a great, but they could transform in wolves or trees to regen MP which could give time for the cleric to heal. Or they could DD.
No job was ever left out of a raid, and these new generation MMOs fail miserably at trying to balance out their job/classes.

One class being good for only one situation, even if you can be all classes, is stupid when you could just balance all the classes.

And no the fights were not strictly tank and spank you had fights like Nagafen, the fire dragon in Sulsek eye where you had to peridocially go behind a rock to avoid lava damage. Or Aurum Vales poison water? Done in Everquest onlien adventures in the Planes of Disease and gas that would infect you greatly reducing your stats to a- on-the-brink level. The only way to get rid of it was to die.

I agree I see no reason for elemental affinity on regular monsters. +1

Give them magic resistance by all means, but just make it one element unless its something like a Flan or Primal.

if there is no elemental wheel, there would be no need for elemental spells .... and wtf guys this is final fantasy ....
there has always been elemental affinity on mosters. and who says blm will have no further spells?

removing elemental wheel is like removing crystals ... itsn ot gonna happen and its not gonna be good without, better try to improve it than removing it