Locking dyable artifact gear behind a extreme trial, good idea?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Extremes are for everyone. For some reason, recently people seem to think anything harder than normal mode is for hardcore raiders only...

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But there IS a step between normal mode and extreme content. It's NOT for everyone. While extreme modes are definitely way more accessible than savage (esp. than the 3rd and 4th fight of a tier, often even than a 2nd), you still can't just queue for it and clear it without practice, unless you're a hardcore raider. But most casuals can't just enter a new extreme (or even a normal mode) fight and understand every mechanic perfectly just by seeing it once.

You usually need to watch a guide or three, memorize everything, sit in PF for a while, then practice a lot to even have a chance of clearing. In normal mode you don't have to assign waymarks to everyone, it usually doesn't matter where you position yourself out of specific mechanics, you don't really need to think multiple steps ahead, and so on. The need to practice and needing coordinated play isn't for everyone. There's also the issue of time when you need to learn content. In normal modes you just queue, fight (after a wait...) and be done with it.

I know that there are many raiders who find extreme modes really easy, because they are used to that kind of content. But for casual players it is a BIG step up.

For me it's that I need to see "harder" mechanics multiple times and slowly think about how they work before I can execute them well, and I find learning parties and playing for hours without enough breaks very exhausting. That's why I don't do extremes or savage very often.

I also don't really understand this "EX is for hardcore raiders only".
If anything EX has been getting easier and easier every expansion.

My static sadly only really is interested in Savage and thus we don't do EX but I got my first kill in just 3 hours with random PF pug. That was with several death and we never saw enrage.

I think most people don't even try it and just QQ about it because it has an EX tag. Go out there and join a practice run, you see that little box in the bottom left corner? Use it and talk to your party if there are things you're not sure off, watch a guide or if you prefere go in blind but join a PF that states that they are going in blind.
I have no idea how it's on the NA DC but here on Chaos EU (with Cerberus and Ragnarok being considered toxic elitist raid groups) There's an entire page of only the new EX trial with practice groups and several going in blind too.

Don't get discouraged, if there's a bad apple there is something called as a blacklist, use it. I've seen far more bad apples in casual & RP events then I did in EX PF groups.

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Originally Posted by Limonia

*Snip*

For me it's that I need to see "harder" mechanics multiple times and slowly think about how they work before I can execute them well, and I find learning parties and playing for hours without enough breaks very exhausting. That's why I don't do extremes or savage very often.

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So you basically mean "I don't want to put in any kind of effort, I just want my stuff"?

Also I'm not a hardcore raider, far from it and so are most people of my static and we first killed Shiva 5 weeks ago. (You also don't want to know how many wipes we had before we got trough and also the 0.01% hp left and still wiped).

I also need to see certain mechanics multiple times (hello Shiva savage light rampart mechanic), even in this EX there was a mechanic I wasn't sure on what to do and most people weren't really in the group so we did some more pulls while people made extra attention to the mechanic and try to see what went wrong (communication is key here) we figured it out after 2 more pulls after that.
And yes I do get tired faster too when new to an encounter and needing to learn it or playing longer periods of time without breaks. So... just go take your break? Yesterday I did say to my group that I had to go at 11Pm (then I go to bed because I need to get up for work) so if we didn't killed it by then well sorry but I need to go sleep.
And that's pretty much what I did in all EX's practice runs with pugs about 2 hours and then I go take a break. Same when farming a certain EX I just do it for 2 to 3 hours and then I go take a break and empty my head.

So go in there try it for a bit and when you get tired you say 'Sorry, I have to take a break now' and you leave and take your break you can try again later or the day after with an empty head.

I don't really understand the issue. I would understand it if we still where at the pre nerf Thordan EX difficulty time but EX's have been made very accessible now.
Even Yoshi P had stated that he would wanted to see more people do this content and thus lower the difficulty, it's also the reason they made Ultimate so the best raiders have something above Savage they can chew on.

Effort is subjective.
Something can be a cakewalk for you and a painful and stressful mess for someone else.

I'm not particularly enthused about it and I'll probably pass on that gear. I'm not a fan of ex content personally it's just not my thing.

Many wanted relic content that was harder and they delivered. Now some are happy and others aren't. The dev team can't win regardless of what it does. I might add the dyeable AF gear required a lot of crystals in Anemos. I might be wrong it's been awhile but I think you needed 3000 protean and 750 Anemos for a complete set. It wasn't a give away set if you wanted one let alone multiples and I have multiple sets on multiple toons so believe me I spent plenty of time there grinding.

This release is certainly not an hours worth of time investment as some would love to categorize it.

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

So you basically mean "I don't want to put in any kind of effort, I just want my stuff"?

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How exactly did you get THAT out of what I wrote?
I somehow can't learn new mechanics during the fight "on the fly". In that regard I'm usually one of the slowest in the PF groups I join and often drag them down, esp. if raiders are part of the group. So I need more preparation and more practice than others. That makes it more exhausting for me.
I'm also not exactly in perfect health, so I can't just say "today I'm just going to practice xyz". I need to be prepared for that too. So even if all conditions are met, and I actually feel like doing such content today, it's physically still very exhausting for me.

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Also I'm not a hardcore raider, far from it and so are most people of my static and we first killed Shiva 5 weeks ago.

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Well, I haven't even tried Ramuh yet, and skipped the last tier completely because the graphic effects of E1S made me nauseous. So no idea what all those action names from Shiva mean. To me even clearing the last fights of a savage tier is a lot. Never done it myself, I do some ex trials and the first two savage fights - if at all.
I'm probably a special case though.

Still, even for players that are physically able to play a lot and so on, there are valid reasons why many can't or don't want to do content where you have to practice a lot at first.
That doesn't mean everyone is lazy, bad or doesn't want to put in any effort. I always try my best in FFXIV.
Another thing for me is about communicating with others. I'm not the best at social interaction, so that's another reason why I rather do casual content now.

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

I also don't really understand this "EX is for hardcore raiders only".
If anything EX has been getting easier and easier every expansion.

My static sadly only really is interested in Savage and thus we don't do EX but I got my first kill in just 3 hours with random PF pug. That was with several death and we never saw enrage.

I think most people don't even try it and just QQ about it because it has an EX tag.

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It's not because it's extreme content, its because of certain other players, as horrible and selfish as that sounds.

I've learned over the course of my year with FF14 that other players are both the worst and best parts of this game, without other players, we wouldnt be able to do something as simple as level up, don't forget the types of players that play their job well, explain certain mechanics to new players in a cohesive manner without much confusion. On the other side of the spectrum though there are people who don't explain things at all no matter what, don't rez you in a ARR alliance raid "cuz muh quick clear", stand at the first barred door in the Praetorium cause their too lazy to get a suit of magitek armour and would rather slow things down thanks to one less suit, use the elevator in the same dungeon because they're to bloody selfish to wait, and do a poor job with their well, job, and it's not always because they're bad either, what if they've had a long day at work and aren't feeling it?

And that's where I come into the types of people I've met when I've attempted EX, I've seen people do the following in both practice and clear parties:

1. Leave after 2 wipes instead of trying to discus with the team what went wrong and how to remedy it
2. Barking orders on whats supposed to be done without discussing alternative strategies with the party
3. Explaining things in a way that they assume we already know a good chunk of the fight instead of starting from the beginning when we're here to practice (This ones a hit or miss because at least they're trying to help, but remember that just trying doesn't kill the boss)
4. Insult/demean players if they mess up instead of discussing what when wrong and how to remedy it (I've encountered this and been on the receiving end so that's fun)

I've delt with at least one of those 4 mentioned things in quite a few PF EX's, I just wish I had screencaps.

And I know that your thinking I'm being a wuss, but it's the human factor that ruins EX for me, if this EX trial was single player or if everyone in the party was willing to have a rational discussion without leaving or barking orders, I'd be going at it for hours on end until I figure it out, I enjoy difficultly in games, but not artificial difficulty created by nasty and awful players.

I was looking forward to it, been waiting to get that Dancer top to be dyeable from the start of the expansion. But it dyes horribly and still has pink bits on it... Guess I'm saved from the trial.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

This really isn't a good approach at all. There are casual grinds and hardcore grinds. I would group extreme trials into the same category with savage raids. Yes this is a grind, but it is far from a casual grind. The previous relic grinds are all about doing things that have zero chance to end up fail and the only factor was the amount time/resource spend on. However, the thing about ex and savage grind is that there is a "Pre-grind" being the condition of successfully beating the encounter. That means before you can begin the actual grind of the item you want, one must go through the hassle of wiping over and over multiple times in pf.

I would usually tolerate the pain/joy of multiple wipes on extreme trial because the reward is gear that has value and meaning into progression of my character. This time, the reward changed to be glamour items that hold less overall value for me personally, but more importantly, relic weapons and AF job gear are items that is targeted towards casual audiences for catching up purpose to begin with.

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That bolded part simply isnt true - I'm not sure wether you werent around for the release of the first relic step in ARR or if you've simply forgotten that it involved beating the HMs of Garuda, Ifrit and... Titan. While they're a joke today, they werent back when they were relevant for your relic progress. Sure, you could carry the odd person - just as you can carry the odd person today. But those fights - and to a lesser extend Chimera and Hydra - werent something you'd just queue up for and clear it with no skill involved. We created a linkshell back then for the sole purpose of gathering people who could beat Titan HM. There were shouts in the streets of Ul'dah, advertising Titan HM clears (I think for about 200k? I fondly remember a shout offering to waive that fee for any woman who would join their TS...). For Ifrit my sole job as paladin was to stun certain mechanics because people just couldnt get out of them - and you absolutly wanted a caster LB to kill all the nails because otherwise the dps-check would have been to tight for most groups. For Garuda you actually have a complicated dance and had to pull her around the arena, following the storms - the adds had to been killed and the OT would actually have to tank one of them!
Whenever I saw someone with their relic weapon I knew they were at least worth some of their salt - because they managed to beat Titan with that job.

Its true that we never got something like that again - but I always hoped that we would. I'm okay with the relic being a grind, but... does it have to be a totally braindead one? Does it have to be FATE-spam or dungeon-spam or even over-world-map-spam (aka Eureka - I'll give Eureka that it was or felt more dangerous than your average FATE, but it still wasnt difficult)?
It doesnt have to be savage-difficult, true - thats what we've got Savage for. But since the very first relic step I've been hoping to see some bite being added to relics again - instead of it being just a repeat of another mindless grind that doesnt involve even the slightest challenge. They struck a good compromisse here, I'd say: Everyone can still get their weapon, so no one is locked out of that - but if you want a bit more, you can put in a bit more effort and skill and earn it.

Only part I really dislike is if I want all sets it's around 170 runs if I don't get lucky with the chest rolls.

Will add though I'm very surprised it's EX I was expecting HM since they nerfed the heck out of Orbonne to push players through but then gate them from AF gear with an EX.