SCH need buffs

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

No, you would still use ED to dump excess stacks in this situation. All reducing ED's potency would do is lower the opportunity cost of aetherflow heals and make them more appealing while still keeping its role as an aetherflow dump. Theres also the element of combining it with Ruin II for movement scenarios to offset the damage loss of Ruin II.

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You'd dump excess stacks within Biolysis windows alone (+ 1 with swiftcast) every 30s.
My point still stands that it would still be Broil + Biolysis spam ad nauseam.

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Totaly agree.
This is what happen when you combine healing and dps into 1 skill or 1 resource.
You either use it for dps and throw away the heal, or keep it for healing and lose dps (WHM Assize and AST star).
In SCH case is worse because most of its healing share the same resource with ED.

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Let me introduce you to GCD heals. 1 GCD, can be used for either DPS or healing. Using a GCD on healing costs DPS.
Aetherflow heals are OGCDs, but they still have an opportunity cost through weaving and ED. Using an AF stack on ED costs DPS.

Having heals with different DPS opportunity costs gives the healing kit some depth. If ED was removed or made to deal no damage, then there would be no point to get rid of excess stacks. All OGCD SCH heals would basically cost the exact same: weaving windows. Wouldn't matter if you used Sacred Soil, Indom, Whispering Dawn or Seraph. Same cost, no depth.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

If not having an aetherflow dump makes the mechanic feel boring and wasteful, but having one that deals damage de-incentivizes using it for its primary purpose of healing. Then if anything the logical solution seems to be making ED cost neutral or flat out removing the damage on it, therefore minimizing the loss of dps while still giving the scholar a use for excess stacks that don't go into healing.

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Primary purpose of healing? As long as there is an ED around with some DPS potency on it it has the dual purpose of dealing damage and healing. Making ED do no damage makes it useless; what's the point of burning AF stacks for just more MP?

I cannot stress enough that Aetherflow heals having a solid DPS opportunity cost is a good thing.
Heals should not all be either OGCD with zero DPS cost (save weaving) or GCD.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

No, you would still use ED to dump excess stacks in this situation. All reducing ED's potency would do is lower the opportunity cost of aetherflow heals and make them more appealing while still keeping its role as an aetherflow dump. Theres also the element of combining it with Ruin II for movement scenarios to offset the damage loss of Ruin II.

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Sorry if this is more of an individual question, but why do you always suggest keeping the SCH DPS toolkit as simplistic (boring) as possible?
I just can't fathom why you'd want this because even if we had the best designed, most synergic healing toolkit we'd still be stuck with DPSing 70%+ of the time.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Sorry if this is more of an individual question, but why do you always suggest keeping the SCH DPS toolkit as simplistic (boring) as possible?
I just can't fathom why you'd want this because even if we had the best designed, most synergic healing toolkit we'd still be stuck with DPSing 70%+ of the time.

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Because I dont consider juggling a bunch of dots to be an intuitive design. Its needless busywork for the same results as we get now. I'd rather the dps toolkit to be designed in a way that seems to flow into their current core mechanics of resource and cooldown management then "Replace Broil with one button every 18 seconds, replace Broil with another random button every 24 seconds". I'd rather see a system of your dps cycling your resources and rewarding you for managing your resources.

Despite the issues we're complaining about with ED and aetherflow I love it because it's a start of the system I'd love to see and if anything I'd like to see that improved upon with more fae guage interaction.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Primary purpose of healing? As long as there is an ED around with some DPS potency on it it has the dual purpose of dealing damage and healing. Making ED do no damage makes it useless; what's the point of burning AF stacks for just more MP?

I cannot stress enough that Aetherflow heals having a solid DPS opportunity cost is a good thing.
Heals should not all be either OGCD with zero DPS cost (save weaving) or GCD.

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Here's the thing. I agree. I like that system of scholar. But I'm trying to put myself in the dev's shoes on the matter.

They seem to have removed energy Drain because they wanted to make Aetherflow a healer centric mechanic, but then realized that they needed a dump skill to use up excess stacks. So they implemented Energy Drain back. And while it gives Scholar a healing priority again, People here seem to have issue with this, considering they complain about the existence of the cost. So the solution seems to be either remove the dps component and make it purely an excess dump, or simply reduce the potency to the point using it to heal does not feel as punishing as people are making out to be.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Here's the thing. I agree. I like that system of scholar. But I'm trying to put myself in the dev's shoes on the matter.

They seem to have removed energy Drain because they wanted to make Aetherflow a healer centric mechanic, but then realized that they needed a dump skill to use up excess stacks. So they implemented Energy Drain back. And while it gives Scholar a healing priority again, People here seem to have issue with this, considering they complain about the existence of the cost. So the solution seems to be either remove the dps component and make it purely an excess dump, or simply reduce the potency to the point using it to heal does not feel as punishing as people are making out to be.

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Stating that something is a dps loss isn't the same as complaining about it. Nor does it make SS or other AF heals bad skills.
Yes, it IS a dps loss, that's a simple fact.
But it doesn't have to be a bad thing because as Volkaj stated, it gives the healer kit some depth. Something the healer kits desperately need. It gives you the opportunity to get better, leaves room for optimization and gives you an incentive to learn the fights even better so you can use your AF more effectively. Miscalculations can lead to "ah shit, should've saved that one AF stack" situations and that's fun for most people because getting not even a little bit punished for miscalculating your resources would make the job even more dull.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

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Look. Here's my real, honest to god opinion on this. A huge chunk of the people here have no idea what they're talking about.

This thread is about how SCH needs buffs. SCH doesn't need buffs. As Billythepancake said SCH can dish out respectable rDPS and HPS. Plus there's always gonna be someone on the bottom of the totem pole unless you have perfect balance and that just isn't gonna happen.

I spent at least half a dozen posts in another thread trying to explain that you should use CU rather than SS when possible, since the latter has a plain, obvious DPS opportunity cost that the other one does not have. And DPS matters a lot when optimizing healing, since there is so little healing to do.

And the last idea posited here is to remove (or render completely useless) ED. Exactly how it was at the start of ShB, which got reverted after community backlash. Mainly because it rendered the whole Aetherflow management aspect of SCH completely moot.

SCH, heck, all healers, do not need numerical buffs or nerfs. They need significant gameplay improvements.
Having to manage a whole bunch of DoT timers (past SCH) might not be your jam. That's fine. But it is still more engaging gameplay (more buttons to press, more timers to manage). Spamming one nuke for an entire fight is simply not fun.

As for SE's perspective, it is pretty clear that they simply do not care, or do not listen to healers.
Out of all the feedback given prior to SB, the only point that got "fixed" was WHM lilies.

I remember clear feedback threads in SB from new players saying they really loved AST's cards.
Threads pointing out that SCH had a nice, high skill ceiling that was satisfying to reach (as it was OP).
Threads asking for a Selene rework, as Eos was all-around better.
Threads asking for mobility and raid DPS utility for WHM.

All SE had to do for ShB was:
- Fix WHM lilies.
- Eliminate Balance fishing (making Draw only useable in combat + nerfing Balance potency for instance).
- Rework Selene.
- Adjust numerical potencies to balance everything rDPS + HPS wise.

Instead, what we got is what dumb DPS and tanks wanted. More healing tools (which we have no use of), and less DPS tools (which we have a desperate need of).
Because they believe that will make healers heal them out of oneshots mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

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First off, I'm not in the mood to trot out this conspiracy theory that SE doesn't care about healers and only ruined them because tanks and dps complained. I refuse to believe it was that simple and it just makes you look like you want to be a victim. If there is any ignorance or failure on SE's part, it's not "I hate healers and want to see them burn" its "We designed the classes for lower skilled players in mind because we want to have a broad audience."

Secondly, I do agree that healer dps could be more interesting. However, I'm not one who likes the idea of superfluous spells for the sake of having extra buttons to press, I'm more interested in the possibility of healing and dpsing being more cohesive with one another and the gameplay flow having the two elements flow back and forth with each other. WHM has the start of it with their Lillies refunding a portion of the damage they loose gcd healing and SCH has the start of it with Aetherflow and ED.

If sch is gonna be juggling extra dots, for example, I would rather them be cohesive and feed into their healing, such as them generating fae gauge as they tick or when you strike a target afflicted by them with Broil, like we discussed earlier, then to juggle them erratically for again, the mere simple fact of having an extra button to press. To be frank, the only additions I want to see to sch's toolkit would be tools to serve as resource dumps under controlled settings as opposed to random dps spells. Give the spells a clear purpose as rewards for not letting resources overcap without them directly interfering with your main role as a healer.

What I ultimately want to see is a cohesive kit where the two elements flow together and reward the player for managing them. Not "juggle 13 dots and occasionally ogcd heal"

On the topic CU versus SS, it is true that for single large hits CU is sufficient, the issue I had is that CU is strictly superior when SS does more for a smaller cost and that CU only does a portion of its potential when used without incurring a loss.

Honestly I would feel like things would be more balanced if AST's skill floor had lower DPS than the others, without any need to change the performance of the other healers. It's a little alarming that AST dishes out more dps than the others even at lower percentiles. Maybe a change that requires card management to actually be card management, could be an idea to raise the skill floor for card management. That would result in AST being a little lower in lower skill tiers but still top the charts at higher skill tiers.

Also, SE doesn't hate healers, they just don't play healers beyond beginner level. It's been obvious from quite a few skill changes and implementations they've made in the past. Whether or not they've become frustrated due to healer feedback and that initiated some sort of negative feedback loop will be anyone's guess, but they've certainly done a poor job of communicating on the matter. Almost a year in and SCH is still bugged up the wazoo without even as much as an acknowledgement of the issues by the team.

There is no sense of build up for Scholar. You throw your CDs around whenever they are available as the opposite would be a dps loss.

I guess that makes for different and unique gameplay but it lacks the oomph feeling of using Afflatus Misery or Divination.

I wonder if a design similar to SCH's pvp set would change that, where we try and maintain Seraph out as long as possible by using our dps/gcd healing tools as effeciently as possible.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

It's a little alarming that AST dishes out more dps than the others even at lower percentiles.

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Not really. There’s just significantly more Whm and Sch logs in comparison. Almost double compared to Ast if I recall correctly.