Needed RDM tweeks after Media Tour

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Thats literally all that could be done to improve rdm before it gets seriously out of balance, in any direction, the fact that engagement got added as a new "skill" but shares the same cd timer with displacement, means basically, a new skill that really isnt anything new at all. I'm actually relieved that rdm wasnt gutted and put under the surgery table to donate their organs to the other dps

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To donate what though? ;)
I mean, raising can be handled by two healers and a SMN, chain raising is not so much of an advantage in a party (except for the first runs to push a bit further in a fight).
SMN has better support.
SMN and BLM have better DPS.

There's not much left.
Embolden has been pointed as an awkward buff since the beginning : it has not changed.
People felt uncomfortable backfliping : you will still lose potency if you don't.
People wanted either more DPS or more support : nope, here; have a ranged Weapon skill you'll scarcely use.

RDM is a fun job to play, and it will do as well as others in 90% of ShB content, but raiding seems to be a bit more difficult to reach when all the other jobs bring more than RDM.

Displacement was a really nice skill in Seiryu EX provided you liked swimming.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

To donate what though? ;)
I mean, raising can be handled by two healers and a SMN, chain raising is not so much of an advantage in a party (except for the first runs to push a bit further in a fight).
SMN has better support.
SMN and BLM have better DPS.

There's not much left.
Embolden has been pointed as an awkward buff since the beginning : it has not changed.
People felt uncomfortable backfliping : you will still lose potency if you don't.
People wanted either more DPS or more support : nope, here; have a ranged Weapon skill you'll scarcely use.

RDM is a fun job to play, and it will do as well as others in 90% of ShB content, but raiding seems to be a bit more difficult to reach when all the other jobs bring more than RDM.

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Pretty much this right here. I had four main things I wanted from RDM in Shadowbringer:

• Verrraise and Vercure before level 50
• Better AoE Damage
• Embolden affecting all damage for everyone
• Displacement removed from damage rotation

So far, we've gotten better AoE, and a bandaid for the Displacement problem. 1.5/4 doesn't feel the best.

I agree with having Vercure's level reduced below 50, so that RDMs can have a self-sustain skill while leveling or in synched content. Simultaneously I think SMN should have Physick scale with INT (at least when self-cast) and BLM should have their own private copy of Drain with adjustments to its healing rate.
I'm on the fence about Verraise. I won't say it necessarily "needs" to be reduced but I have no counterargument for reducing it, other than that it exists purely as group utility, and if I had to choose only one of the two to be reduced below 50, it would be Vercure.
In either case, however, I disagree with increasing the level of Corps-a-corps and Displacement, since our use of melee skills makes mobility paramount.

While this won't affect balance in any way, I'd also like to see at least one version of Veraero and Verthunder each changed to Verwater and Verblizzard, respectively. While I'm sure that the names of the AoE versions will likely be changed to Veraero/thunder "II", it can be confusing for the new skills to not proc Verstone or Verfire, especially with Acceleration simply noting it affects "Your next Veraero/Verholy or Verthunder/Verflare". In fact, the choice to double-down on wind and lightning magic over water and ice is confusing in itself in that regard; it would make sense if Blizzard and Water were being saved for some special purpose in our kit, but Shadowbringers shows the devs did not consider such additions necessary.

Something that would affect balance, however, is that Impact and Moulinet need more adjustments; Moulinet provides less damage per hit than Impact (making it rather disappointing to build up to, and more of a chore to use to dump Mana), while Impact provides less Mana per cast than either of the AoEs that precede it.
A very simple fix: Just trade the potencies of Moulinet and Impact, and have Impact scale its Mana provision with the number of targets hit (say, 2/2 per target instead of a static 3/3, with a cap if need be). In the latter case, this would prevent Impact from being gamed in single-target like Enhanced Scatter has occasionally been, while any potency-loss in the former would be counteracted by the slight speed increase of the latter.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I'm not sure why they didn't remove Displacement and just straight up replace it with Engagement.

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Now, if I were to go full-hog on adjustments, instead of just tweaking what we've already seen:

• Remove the damage from Displacement and Corps-a-corps, and fold it into other damage sources (ie melee combo)
• Add minor CC or enmity-control effects to Displacement and Corps-a-corps in place of damage
• Adjust Displacement to have a 5 yard longer cast-range and 5 yard shorter back-step distance, allowing you to more easily adjust your jump
• Remove Engagement completely and replace it with a personal mitigation skill

well i agree with by 50 for verraise/vercure. embolden could be a flat increase to everyone(I dislike these weird "unique" type buffs that exclude certain comps to be effective) I thought they gave RDM aoe alternative to scatter spam/contre sixte?(or youre looking for a nuke like Deathflare/Foul/Flare?(dont see it happening. ever.)
Engagement - ???(my opinion,but ok devs?Seems like another button added to me they couldve baked the potency onto verflare/holy and left the out of bounds suicide optional for kicks)
I dont ever see RDM getting BLM levels of damage output,and I doubt any of us do either. Its bad enough that some BLM seem to want a raise, because reasons.

All in all ill take the not so much changed from how its been to the alternative - giving all mdps half of RDM kit then we get the HW bard treatment of some god awful wanderers minuet because we gotta do damage more good like.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I'm on the fence about Verraise. I won't say it necessarily "needs" to be reduced but I have no counterargument for reducing it, other than that it exists purely as group utility,

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Verrraise really does need to come before 50 because, again, SMN shouldn't be better at RDM's job than RDM.

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In either case, however, I disagree with increasing the level of Corps-a-corps and Displacement, since our use of melee skills makes mobility paramount.

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I've no problem with Corp and Displacement staying below 50 too, but doing the hot-swap seemed the best way to balance out skill gains. For 50 and bellow content, I think moving with dualcast provides... reasonable movement.

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Something that would affect balance, however, is that Impact and Moulinet need more adjustments; Moulinet provides less damage per hit than Impact (making it rather disappointing to build up to, and more of a chore to use to dump Mana), while Impact provides less Mana per cast than either of the AoEs that precede it.
A very simple fix: Just trade the potencies of Moulinet and Impact, and have Impact scale its Mana provision with the number of targets hit (say, 2/2 per target instead of a static 3/3, with a cap if need be). In the latter case, this would prevent Impact from being gamed in single-target like Enhanced Scatter has occasionally been, while any potency-loss in the former would be counteracted by the slight speed increase of the latter.

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Moulinet's Potency is lower, but it also has a faster recast, so it's more potency/sec (in theory). I think a huge QoL change for Moulinet would be to make it a 10-yalm 360 instead of a 15-yalm cone. This would let you much more fluildly dash in and use Moulinet on the same target in the middle of the group you've been targeting with AoE spells.

The mana gains could use a little buff, no lie. I'd say, make it 10 mana for the elemental starters, and 5/5 for Impact. That'll keep mana gains roughly equal between single target and AoE. With that, I'd be okay if they bumped Moulinet up to 25 mana.

I think what RDM REALLY could have used is a 'finisher' to do after your Moulinets...
Like, using Moulinet gives you a stacking buff that lasts for 5 seconds, which let you cast... let's say VerComet. And Vercomet's potency is based on how many stacks you had~

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• Remove the damage from Displacement and Corps-a-corps, and fold it into other damage sources (ie melee combo)
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• Remove Engagement completely and replace it with a personal mitigation skill

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Just moving all of Displacement's damage to Corps-a-corps would work fine. All of the other gap-closers do damage, so it'd fit.

I'd personally like to see Engagement be removed in favor of something like VerShell/VerReflect for party mitigation, or possibly even VerEsuna.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

I thought they gave RDM aoe alternative to scatter spam/contre sixte?(or youre looking for a nuke like Deathflare/Foul/Flare?(dont see it happening. ever.)

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It's not that they gave us an "alternative" to Scatter Spam, they completely rewrote the rotation so there is no "Spam".

If this question is directed at me, what I'm saying is we already have an AoE skill to build up to, and while it is weaker than the example skills you listed, the bigger concern is it's weaker than the skills you use to build it.
At the going rate you're going to hit Impact (220 potency) 3 times before you get off one Moulinet, and Moulinet's only 200 potency for its cost, with its only saving grace being a lower GCD... with other melee skills.

As far as having our own "nuke", Contre Sixte already covers that role.

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Its bad enough that some BLM seem to want a raise, because reasons.

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The BLMs you're quoting have concerns that their lack of utility makes them undesirable compared to SMNs, who have comparable damage and greater mobility to boot. Lack of utility also means their group contribution scales exactly with their personal DPS, which can suffer under the effects of Weakness/Brink of Death or some boss mechanics.

Most of those people would likely be just as satisfied with any unique group buff, boss debuff, or ally tool in the BLM kit, Raise is just seen as the most direct way to level the playing field with other casters (which would likely make BLM instantly superior to SMN). Personally I favor putting a Vulnerability Up curse on the boss, or increasing the size of Ley Lines and extending its effects to the party.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

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Yeah Id have to agree when you mention it that way. Id like to see BLM get something similar to akin of the suggestions outside of raise, as well. Especially the lay lines extension would be really neat feature for them-Ive just seen several expansions and "adjustments" throughout the life from 2.0 and worry that the "solutions for balance" are usually, not that great.
It seems like utility/mobility<>pDPS is about the formula that seems to be in use whenever they do a level cap/skill job change/increase. The formula is fine, when its balanced, but judging by the (lack of)changes to RDM, it seems to me they think its balanced enough, anything else will result in the poles shifting or something going terribly wrong. That being said, they may do some adjustments pretty early on, and I hope some of your suggestions get implemented.

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Originally Posted by Valavaern

Verrraise really does need to come before 50 because, again, SMN shouldn't be better at RDM's job than RDM.

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Ignoring for a moment that RDM's Raising ability (when it has it) is vastly superior to SMNs...
You might have had a point if the argument was specifically to reduce Verraise to level 50, or at least below level 60. Putting it below 50, however, is implementing RDM's Verraise spamming in content that wasn't even designed with RDMs in mind, or even that RDMs were necessarily designed to go back and do.
In that context, it's less that SMN is doing a better job at being a RDM than RDM, and more that RDM is trying to infringe on a position that was originally SMN's.

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For 50 and bellow content, I think moving with dualcast provides... reasonable movement.

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Yes, but we're talking about different kinds of mobility. Dualcast is great as a caster because you have more freedom during movement heavy phases, but the part you're ignoring is that RDM is a hybrid melee job, which means it not only has the responsibilities of a caster as far as boss mechanics are concerned (including standing back and taking care of enemies from a distance) but has the limitations of a melee for its burst phases.
Dualcast alone doesn't help you close the gap when your mana gauge is filled, it just lowers the caster movement penalty as you inch forward.

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Moulinet's Potency is lower, but it also has a faster recast, so it's more potency/sec (in theory).

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Sure, but that's only in the vacuum of having multiple Moulinets queued up at once while completely ignoring time investment to cast it. For every 100/100 Mana in AoE, or 5 Moulinets, you have 31 builder GCDs, or 15 Impacts.

Even in your proposal that's 10 Impacts (20 GCDs) for every 4 Moulinets.

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The mana gains could use a little buff, no lie. I'd say, make it 10 mana for the elemental starters, and 5/5 for Impact.

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My concern there is while the overall gain is "roughly" equal to single-target, the starters you propose would have significantly more Mana per-cast than Jolt II (and pull slightly ahead of Verstone/Verfire, too) which could create instances of complicated math about melee time gain versus burst loss per-cast. That same principle is why, for instance, you would want to spend an Enhanced Scatter proc even in single-target.

Meanwhile, just going the route of "scales Mana gain with number of targets" means we're only using our AoE skills in, at worst, 2-target cleave scenarios. No complications, no math, just pick up the job and go "oh this is how it's supposed to work", which is more in line with the intent of Square's simple "potency" phraseology in the first place.

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I think what RDM REALLY could have used is a 'finisher' to do after your Moulinets...
Like, using Moulinet gives you a stacking buff that lasts for 5 seconds, which let you cast... let's say VerComet. And Vercomet's potency is based on how many stacks you had~

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And as much fun as that might be, it's not really a necessity. Bear in mind that as of Shadowbringers, we will now have 5 buttons we'll be using for AoE, four of whom are GCDs, which is already comparable to BLMs (ignoring unused skills like Fire II and Blizzard II) and SMNs. Building up a full Mana gauge for such an AoE Verfinisher attack would take longer than most AoE encounters, and in such case you may be better off simply holding your gauge for the next single-target opener, spending Moulinets to prevent overcapping.

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Just moving all of Displacement's damage to Corps-a-corps would work fine. All of the other gap-closers do damage, so it'd fit.

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If we're already working under the principle that movement skills should be saved for movement purposes, I'd rather not be pushed to use Corps-a-corps as a 300+ potency oGCD to be spammed on cooldown.

Now, if we were talking about Corps-a-corps enchanting to deal more damage when you have 80/80 Mana so you still want to save it for a melee period, then we'd be in business.

I dont see Vercure going any lower than 50 because of PotD solo