My Eureka Concept

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I'm still confused though. You're either being hypocritical or I am missing something. By your own admission you don't do EX's or Savage (please correct me if I am wrong). That means that the only content left is snoozefest content, dungeons, normal mode raiding, 24 mans etc. So how can you say you like a challenge when you yourself admit you don't engage in anything challenging?

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Because those are 8 mans and I find the PvE community for more toxic than the PvP community when it comes to DF and PF. It takes about a week for new content to have "No first time bonus" in PF and it is everywhere. "MUST SKIP SOAR" must be xilvl, etc, etc, etc. All of these reasons are why 4 man content is more inviting to me. I have 4 less randoms to deal with.

Yes I could static but sometimes there are more important things going on than being on FFXIV at X time on X day of the week. So that eliminates that.

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That quite literally sounds like the antithesis of fun having to carry multiple weapons to accommodate this trait. How do you 'synergize' hits in FF14? How do you burst with magic? You just let your melee/tanks AFK while mages beat on it?

The reason I disagreed with this singular trait was because I am still struggling to find any redeeming qualities it would add in a gameplay scenario.

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The idea is not fighting dumb lest your weapons do get wrecked.

Currently there is no way to synergize hits, but there could be. I have shown a way to make skillchains work in XIV, if that is too complex, they could go the route of ESO synergies, or lotor(forgot what the name was). Magic burst could work in any of those systems. See below links in the sig if you want to read it.

The encounter would have phases, just as trials do now. But instead of <this skill always works regardless of job composition>, always on, always 100% rotation which rarely changes. The phases would have alternating speeds/changes, where in one your magic casters do the ugly while physical do other things relevant to the encounter besides damage. The other phase would have physical casters do the ugly, while magical casters do other things relevant to the encounter besides damage. If there is worry one side may be standing around on their down phase, they could make buffs syenrgize and empower the other side of the equation so those that can't damage currently can do so.

I could go into many other scenarios, and lay out a whole story for each of those 20 or so skillsets, but I won't because most likely none of the depth you or I are putting forth will come to fruition. The mantra here has normally been to keep it KISS, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Currently there is no way to synergize hits, but there could be. I have shown a way to make skillchains work in XIV

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OMG Magic Bursts and Skillchains.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Because those are 8 mans and I find the PvE community for more toxic than the PvP community when it comes to DF and PF. It takes about a week for new content to have "No first time bonus" in PF and it is everywhere. "MUST SKIP SOAR" must be xilvl, etc, etc, etc. All of these reasons are why 4 man content is more inviting to me. I have 4 less randoms to deal with.

Yes I could static but sometimes there are more important things going on than being on FFXIV at X time on X day of the week. So that eliminates that.

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Hypocritical it is then. Aside from the ridiculous circular logic you employed regarding challenging content; If you consider everything toxic around you, there's only one common denominator and it isn't the community.

I say this because none of what you stated above constitutes "toxic" by the way. No first time bonus, must be x ilvl, skip soar, etc. none of that is toxic.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

The idea is not fighting dumb lest your weapons do get wrecked.

Currently there is no way to synergize hits, but there could be. I have shown a way to make skillchains work in XIV, if that is too complex, they could go the route of ESO synergies, or lotor(forgot what the name was). Magic burst could work in any of those systems. See below links in the sig if you want to read it.

The encounter would have phases, just as trials do now. But instead of <this skill always works regardless of job composition>, always on, always 100% rotation which rarely changes. The phases would have alternating speeds/changes, where in one your magic casters do the ugly while physical do other things relevant to the encounter besides damage. The other phase would have physical casters do the ugly, while magical casters do other things relevant to the encounter besides damage. If there is worry one side may be standing around on their down phase, they could make buffs syenrgize and empower the other side of the equation so those that can't damage currently can do so.

I could go into many other scenarios, and lay out a whole story for each of those 20 or so skillsets, but I won't because most likely none of the depth you or I are putting forth will come to fruition. The mantra here has normally been to keep it KISS, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

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Fair enough. I designed this Eureka within the constraints of the existing design paradigm not outside of it. Trust me, if I could have my way I'd change so much about the combat system to make it more robust.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I say this because none of what you stated above constitutes "toxic" by the way. No first time bonus, must be x ilvl, skip soar, etc. none of that is toxic.

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It does exclude a vast majority of people who didn't jump on new content the week it was released, which is not beneficial to people just starting out or people trying to catch up. It is discouraging to look at PF groups and see your immediately excluded. Ya I could start my own and say it is a learning party but then people bail on the 3rd wipe. If you don't see that as toxic and non-beneficial to the community than you really haven't been part of a helpful community.

My point is you don't have to make it 8 man to make it challenging. Also PvP is far more challenging than PvE as it is not about memorizing a dance.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

It does exclude a vast majority of people who didn't jump on new content the week it was released...

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Far less so than literally any other piece of content that still offers vertical progression that interacts with the rest of the game. All other content has only one level of difficulty, and then speedrunning. Where it would normally turn into speedrunning, you can either do that or up the difficulty, and then again, and again, meaning that the difficulty floor can be lower without penalizing the difficulty ceiling in any way.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

It does exclude a vast majority of people who didn't jump on new content the week it was released, which is not beneficial to people just starting out or people trying to catch up. It is discouraging to look at PF groups and see your immediately excluded. Ya I could start my own and say it is a learning party but then people bail on the 3rd wipe. If you don't see that as toxic and non-beneficial to the community than you really haven't been part of a helpful community.My point is you don't have to make it 8 man to make it challenging. Also PvP is far more challenging than PvE as it is not about memorizing a dance.

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Excluding people is not toxic. Just because something is discouraging does not mean it is toxic. I've helped tons of new players get into Savage raiding and got a lot of people their O3S clears when they were stuck for weeks so don't try to talk down from your mighty pedestal on me about knowing what "helpful" is.

I think I've asked numerous times now, how would you make 4m content challenging? Cite specific examples for all 4 roles (melee, ranged phys, caster, and tank). I was unable to do it and found considerably better design with an 8m party design.

PVP in general yes, PVP in this game? No. Pick a healer, single-handedly carry your team to victory in RW. Otherwise pick a ranged DPS and single-handedly carry any other PVP mode this game offers. Nothing about it is "hard". Not sure why you brought this up though as it's not relevant to the discussion.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Excluding people is not toxic. Just because something is discouraging does not mean it is toxic. I've helped tons of new players get into Savage raiding and got a lot of people their O3S clears when they were stuck for weeks so don't try to talk down from your mighty pedestal on me about knowing what "helpful" is.

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I didn't say you. I said the community isn't helpful. So get off your high horse. FFXI the community was way more helpful and less elitist than the FFXIV community. Night and day differences. There are still people but overall the community isn't selfish and I said "You haven't been part of a helpful community". So you don't know the difference. I am also telling you no matter how you set Tiers people will be excluded.

I brought up PvP and you must have only played 4.0 PvP because it is a little more complex than the simplistic version you put out. I have won RW matches when the other team was stacked with healers. The point was unless you can make something unpredictable no matter what content you design, or put out it is just memorizing a dance.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I didn't say you. I said the community isn't helpful. So get off your high horse. FFXI the community was way more helpful and less elitist than the FFXIV community. Night and day differences. There are still people but overall the community isn't selfish and I said "You haven't been part of a helpful community". So you don't know the difference. I am also telling you no matter how you set Tiers people will be excluded.

I brought up PvP and you must have only played 4.0 PvP because it is a little more complex than the simplistic version you put out. I have won RW matches when the other team was stacked with healers. The point was unless you can make something unpredictable no matter what content you design, or put out it is just memorizing a dance.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I said "You haven't been part of a helpful community"

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Were your goal to point out the community, then almost any other wording would have been more ideal than to connote that such was your opponent's choice, that the expectation to be a part of community was given and betrayed, and/or that you are not part of said community.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

The point was unless you can make something unpredictable no matter what content you design, or put out it is just memorizing a dance.

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This much is true, but were there enough people playing PvP, you would doubtless eventually find the same become true of PvP as well, but with conditionals and algorithms in place of linear steps. Would that too be too simple? Fatalism doesn't bode well for either side, nor are the benefits available to either one necessarily unique to it.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I didn't say you. I said the community isn't helpful. So get off your high horse. FFXI the community was way more helpful and less elitist than the FFXIV community. Night and day differences. There are still people but overall the community isn't selfish and I said "You haven't been part of a helpful community". So you don't know the difference. I am also telling you no matter how you set Tiers people will be excluded.

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Your wording could have been clearer on that. It most certainly appeared you were referencing me, not the community.You also completely ignored my ask - which was to detail challenging 4 man content.

I also asked you to identify who would be excluded in my iteration of Eureka. I feel as though I successfully captured the playerbase in my system and if I missed someone I'd like to know where specifically.

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I brought up PvP and you must have only played 4.0 PvP because it is a little more complex than the simplistic version you put out. I have won RW matches when the other team was stacked with healers. The point was unless you can make something unpredictable no matter what content you design, or put out it is just memorizing a dance.

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I've been playing since 2.1 patch. I've PVP'd through all of that, including up to 4.1. Not sure why you assumed otherwise.

PVP is not more complex than I said. The bottom line is depending on which mode you do, those specific roles single handedly carry the team to victory. But if we're being real, the team that wins near 100% of the time, is simply the team with the least bots.

You mention this concept of unpredictable, but yet my concept was literally the epitome of unpredictable pve content and you have nothing positive to say about it?