4.05 DPS Ranking Expectations

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Originally Posted by Chronons

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What? No it's not.
I'm not arguing that a good player is right because he's a good player.

I'm using statistical data to prove my hypothesis.

I'm saying, on average, casters have less uptime than melee. And, to prove it, I linked you parses (aka actual raid data) that shows my points. Like thousands.
I suggested the 90% percentile so player skill (aka: casters play worse, or casters are harder to play at a competent level) isn't a factor.
For good players, on average, casters have less uptime, which validates my point.
Where is the "argument from authority" here? Where did I argue your character beyond underlining that you do not understand what you're talking about? Of course if you don't understand the phenomena, your opinion on it will have limited validity.
You're free to prove me wrong by proving experimental data which validates your position.

EDIT: isn't what you described ad hominem anyway.

seriously blm like the sam? never it will happend the ranking willl be more something like:

1 - SAM
2 - MNK
3 - NIN
4 - DRG
5 - RDM/BLM
6 - SMN
7 - MCH
8 - BRD

for answer the why the blm can't be top dps? because if a ranged is stronger than a melee why bring a melee? only bring full ranged and play it safe... that what was done at the release of the 2.0 until some balance was done.

then no ranged will be over the melee that how it must be and will be. because be a ranged is safer than melee, and for all the people that say, yes but when a ranged move he can't cast... you don't move all the time plus BLM by example did get a few skill for move fast and return fast in combat without forget 2 skill for cast instant spell and proc for instant spell...

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

EDIT: isn't what you described ad hominem anyway.

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Attacking a person as opposed to an argument is Ad Hominem, claiming experience as a qualifier for correctness is an Argument from Authority. It can lead credence, but not make it veridical.

I am using the same data as you? Go look at the report CecMiller provided. It shows an example of a RDM having less uptime than the NIN. If you do look at more examples you will see that it is the case that it fluctuates based on personal skill, time for the fight, etc. Generally around that 1-2%.

In fact heres the best BLM and SAM reports on the site for Susano.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/k94fg...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/V9kja...pe=damage-done

Just gonna throw this out there...

Casters can not be better than melee in both ST and AoE. If this does happen, there isn't really a point to bringing any melee other than Limit Break Bizznatch. (Which would be the ninja)

Casters would then be better on both fronts in every fight.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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I giggled. We just came from a 3.4/3.5 meta where casters were left out in favour of double ranged physical/double melee.
We're in a meta where the two best comps are NIN + RDM + two of SAM/MNK/BRD.
(That's two to three melees in the best comps).

Melee comps dominate this game, and have done so for a while (except poor DRG- don't worry DRGs, I'll campaigned so you're both buffed and fixed as well).
So I guess it's perfectly fine for SMN/BLM to keep on being weaker than the other dps jobs for another year or so.
Let's also not fix MCH- if MCH gets good, maybe we'll only bring one melee. We couldn't possible have this ranged dps, MCH, who can even dps while moving, be as good as melee. MCH is so easy- they don't have to face the terror of staring the raid boss in the face.

Because we're in a game where melee must always have two spots in the dps composition, like they always had except when you BRD stacked in like 2.0.
If melee aren't a cut above the rest, then you absolutely won't bring them. Because these are objectively harder jobs than their ranged counterparts. After all, sometimes ranged don't move.

Just look at what you're trying to sell me.
This is in a game that's, in recent years, been absolutely dominated in the dps meta by a melee job, NIN.
NIN is so utterly omnipresent we don't even consider a team without a NIN.
Not even when analysing results or theorycrafting.
There will be a NIN there, with his TA and slashing debuff... a current meta where one of the most powerful teamcomps has triple melee and one ranged (BRD or RDM)... just ugh.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

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I didn't claim I was correct because I was experienced. I claimed you were incorrect because you're inexperienced.
I'm not going "I'm a doctor so I'm right", I'm going "you don't really have the required formation for this, so you're likely wrong".
You're stating the reciprocal of what I actually said. And it should be obvious that just because A implies B, B doesn't imply A. Or not A. Or anything at all.

And yes, let's get this amazing sample of exactly one parse, and not only that, but also the most cherry-picked, padded parse of them all, to validate my point.
If I had a cooperating team, I could tank almost every aoe- not move for levinbolt, eat churnings, etc- just to ensure I never have to move and can mindlessly dps. People do things like these. That's why we should stay away from the 99% percentile. Because many of those runs are padded (I'm starting to sound like Kairi' L).
And your sample size is one.

Imagine how absurd it would be if something like a medical trial, or a test for a new part of an automobile were carried out like this.
"We tested it this one time, on this one person! Surely it'll be fine for the rest of the world at all times."
The top parse has absolutely no statistical relevance whatsoever.
It's literally a statistical outlier.

EDIT: I have three characters over two service accounts... guess what job my muscular roelady is...
DOUBLE EDIT: It's burden of proof though. You come in here and say "what, you're all crazy, casters are super easy!" and provide no data or reasoning as to why that's so. Then you say "the other poster something something bat". I didn't come here and say "well melee are unaffected by mechanics". Do you know why? Because I know the stupid Susie jail is actual bullcrap for MNK/DRG.
TRIPLE EDIT: Damn seeing that sexy roelady face is giving me MNK cravings...

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Just gonna throw this out there...

Casters can not be better than melee in both ST and AoE. If this does happen, there isn't really a point to bringing any melee other than Limit Break Bizznatch. (Which would be the ninja)

Casters would then be better on both fronts in every fight.

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By that logic samurai should be behind majority of dps because their aoe is kinda top tier compared other classes.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

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I mean, I can post more that prove my point? The data is there for anyone to access and decide for themsleves. As a matter of fact, how large of a sample size would you like me to post here on the forum to appease you? I posted those as a data point not a proof of concept. So chill.

"I didn't claim I was correct because I was experienced. I claimed you were incorrect because you're inexperienced."

If you want to perform mental gymnastics to feel like you committed Ad Hominem as opposed to an Argument from Authority go ahead I guess, knock yourself out. You seem really stuck on this. Point of order though, your out of place here too calling me out as not having a caster leveled. I dont see any melee on your lodestone. Can I be the pot and you be the kettle?

edit: Yeah there is no way I could have other accounts too.
edit x 2: There is like 3 pages of reasoning and I cited the same data as you.
edit x 3: passive aggressive post-post editing is fun

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Attacking a person as opposed to an argument is Ad Hominem, claiming experience as a qualifier for correctness is an Argument from Authority. It can lead credence, but not make it veridical.

I am using the same data as you? Go look at the report CecMiller provided. It shows an example of a RDM having less uptime than the NIN. If you do look at more examples you will see that it is the case that it fluctuates based on personal skill, time for the fight, etc. Generally around that 1-2%.

In fact heres the best BLM and SAM reports on the site for Susano.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/k94fg...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/V9kja...pe=damage-done

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If you actually look at those logs you can blatently see that the entire group was built around buffing their top dps. The sam had balance for 3/4ths of the fight along with bard crit, trick attack, and emboldens. The BLM did not have all of that. Again, judging because you see a log showing numbers doesn't mean those numbers are accurate. They are what a class can do when everyone else pushes them forward.

But I do agree that skill plays the biggest factor in everything. A skilled ranged class knows they should be preplanning movement and always be casting. Melee doesn't have that down side but they are forced off of bosses much more often giving them higher levels of downtime over a skilled ranged.

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Originally Posted by Ariyn

If you actually look at those logs you can blatently see that the entire group was built around buffing their top dps. The sam had balance for 3/4ths of the fight along with bard crit, trick attack, and emboldens. The BLM did not have all of that. Again, judging because you see a log showing numbers doesn't mean those numbers are accurate. They are what a class can do when everyone else pushes them forward.

But I do agree that skill plays the biggest factor in everything. A skilled ranged class knows they should be preplanning movement and always be casting. Melee doesn't have that down side but they are forced off of bosses much more often giving them higher levels of downtime over a skilled ranged.

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I agree with you. I dont think those logs are indicative of the jobs balance, just a data point on uptime alone. Obviously padding goes on there, and while I am usually remiss to argue based on its data I wasnt the one to bring it up.