The Raid community as we know it

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Originally Posted by Hayward

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Its always weird seeing causal raiders get their undies in a wad over things hardcore raiders say/do. Its a different speed, a different crowd. Not all of them are as bravado as Xeno is about it (hes an entertainer at the end of the day), but generally speaking the hardcore community feels the same way. If you cant carry your own weight you have to go. If that doesnt appeal to you then keep avoiding the PF farms, dont DF solo, and run your weekly FC runs of Deltascape. The hardcore raiders aren't going to post threads about how appalling your behavior is.

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Originally Posted by Annah

However, I do think it is a little creepy that you tried to look me up on the internet lol. Sorry ...but yeah that had to be said in all due respect. :)

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He is likely referring to checking your character on the lodestone. Its pretty common practice to see if someone is blowing smoke out of their rear by checking what they have actually done via gear/achievements. Due diligence isn't "creepy", so don't flatter yourself.

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Originally Posted by Annah

LOL. Um no.

You're not even close.

1. You can raid without name calling. I left that kind of stuff in grade school.
2. You can raid and have fun doing it
3. You can raid and create lasting friendships from folks you meet from those raids.
4. Joking and laughing in discord is permitted without penalty of perjury.
5. There is an equilibrium (oh daaaaaaamn a Sophia pun) with having fun and getting the job done

I'm sorry you do not see these things are possible, but trust me, there are a lot of raiders out there who have fun raiding

Finally, I wished I had a pair..i always wondered what that was like (i heard they feel like a cross between an out of body experience and rolling in freshly mowed grass in slow motion while listening to Air Supply). But that's what I heard :(

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You can't marry the idea of coddling people, and caring about their feelings, with having fun. You can have fun and try your hardest.

Xenos is right in pretty much everything he said, and some of it seemed more lighthearted than serious. What he forgot to mention, that would have tied a nice bow on his point, is that it all depends on what speed of a raid group you're comfortable with. If your group is more casual, obviously they wouldn't really have precedence to be critical of anything.

The whole point is, if you want to get stuff done in a reasonable amount of time, you can't coddle your team. He's not saying everyone in a raid group needs to trash talk each other. That's just his persona, and how his friends have fun, he gave the context for it. He's just saying you can't leave everything at, "Better luck next time, you did alright" when someone is clearly messing up. If you have a raid group that makes a serious goal of clearing, that won't net you results. Fact.

And that's because progression raiding requires you defining the problems causing wipes, and adjusting them appropriately. Sometimes, you will have to single someone out, because they are the cause of you not clearing. Sometimes it's because there's easier ways to handle a mechanic. In some cases, for more binary reasons, like not making a DPS check meaning your DPS just ain't up to par. You're gonna need to criticize someone eventually, and if they don't get better, you won't clear. Ultimately, his group, and any group that cares about clearing efficiently, has no fun sucking or being bad. They have fun by performing. So it's really all about speed. And if you can't be honest about the speed of a raid group you need, you'll have a bad time, regardless of how nice they are.

I watched all of the pod cast. I really didn't see anything offensive. That is just how his raid static does it. He is not saying every static has to do it that way. For the real life job thing above, you have to be more careful with how you dish out criticisms in jobs and real life. You have to do it with more respect rather then trash talk people. If someone tried to trash talk me in real life like some people do in game, I would lay their ass straight on the ground for the disrespect in their tone and actions. You have to be more respectful when you do it in the real world because you don't know how people will react.

Ferrasper makes a great point and I would add in real life, there are laws such as title 7, EEOC reg, ADA, etc. that deter certain behavior seen in online games. But I digress.

This hardcore raider being interviewed could be viewed with a wary eye since one could question his distribution of time and life choices. But, what this kind of player chooses to do and how they go about is ultimately their choice and not, I would argue, for the rest of us to pass judgment. The hardcore raider can contend it's hypocritical for us to criticize them for criticizing others gameplay yet it be ok for us to pass judgment on their approach to a game as an indictment of their life choices.

The hardcore raider would be correct, so again live and let it be.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

He is not saying every static has to do it that way.

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Problem is...there are people who will see that, and say it's the ONLY way. I know people who watch guide videos with "strategy" they ONLY do that. "Why did the tank go to NW instead of W for Thordan?!" that type of thing where it is SLIGHTLY different than what they saw in a video someone posted on the interwebs, but not the exact same.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Sad but true, the problem are not hardcore raid community itself, but the ppl who hear strategies and playstyles without context or research and then want to impose that as the ONLY way to do things, recent guids on mrhappy channel I have to say are trying to fix this behavior by explaining that these are what they used on their kills but are one of many ways to handle a fight, which means that at least they are acknowledging the problem

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Whenever I look at a guide, I only use it as a "Hey, this is a mechanic that's going to happen, be on the lookout and be ready to act". Trial and error are the only other things that I use to figure out where/when to move.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Problem is...there are people who will see that, and say it's the ONLY way. I know people who watch guide videos with "strategy" they ONLY do that. "Why did the tank go to NW instead of W for Thordan?!" that type of thing where it is SLIGHTLY different than what they saw in a video someone posted on the interwebs, but not the exact same.

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Sad but true, the problem are not hardcore raid community itself, but the ppl who hear strategies and playstyles without context or research and then want to impose that as the ONLY way to do things, recent guids on mrhappy channel I have to say are trying to fix this behavior by explaining that these are what they used on their kills but are one of many ways to handle a fight, which means that at least they are acknowledging the problem

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Originally Posted by Hayward

If that guy represents the mentality of the raiding community, I am full glad that I have no part of it.

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You do know that raiders generally have statics, right? Like, a group of eight relatively like-minded people that meet up several times a week to bash their heads against bosses for a few hours?

Xeno and 7th have espoused a sort of comically asshole-ish elitism amongst their ilk, and that works for them. What works for Xeno's group is most assuredly not what works for all groups. Personally, I have been in similar (but milder) raid groups in the past, and always knew to take the insults in stride since we were all friends.

Moreover, what he says isn't inherently wrong - people mess up in raids, and they need to be told that they messed up. Do you need to call them a retard, etc for messing up? Probably not, but if you handle your fellow teammates with kid gloves, then they are never going to improve.

With regard to ending up in a group of people like Xeno (if you catch them in terror roulette, or something), just leave if it bothers you.

I actually wound up on Xeno's stream back in Midas (when he was attempting to help our static), and believe it or not, in spite of my pretty mediocre performance, no one said anything "toxic."

Xeno's elitism is part of his persona. That's what works for him, his static and his audience. I wouldn't take the attitude of one relatively infamous "bully" to represent the entirety of the raiding community.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

When raiders allow people with his kind of attitude, why do they wonder why more people don't raid?

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I don't think a lot of people are sitting around wondering why more people don't raid. Raiding is difficult. It takes a lot of time, skill and dedication. Generally speaking, it requires people to be better than average at their jobs. Final Fantasy XIV is, for the most part, a very casual game, and the majority of players are completely content with being casual.

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Originally Posted by Auteur

Ferrasper makes a great point and I would add in real life, there are laws such as title 7, EEOC reg, ADA, etc. that deter certain behavior seen in online games. But I digress.

This hardcore raider being interviewed could be viewed with a wary eye since one could question his distribution of time and life choices. But, what this kind of player chooses to do and how they go about is ultimately their choice and not, I would argue, for the rest of us to pass judgment. The hardcore raider can contend it's hypocritical for us to criticize them for criticizing others gameplay yet it be ok for us to pass judgment on their approach to a game as an indictment of their life choices.

The hardcore raider would be correct, so again live and let it be.

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There would be no problem with that if the hardcore raiders weren't spreading their toxic playstyle to the rest of the game and actively causing or encouraging people to quit the game so they can raid more "without those casuals causing a wipe"

If a raid group kicks a player for any reason not direct attributed to making the game unbearable, that is griefing. Kicking people because they haven't got melded BiS gear, or certain achievements or minions is just plain griefing and people who do that are the ones who need to grow up. If you don't want to play with the filthy casuals, then never touch the DF without a static party. Life does not give you the perfect team, ever, in the job or school environment, learn to adapt, or make certain you always have your dream team ready. But let me tell you, in reality, you don't get to pick people who get to work with you, and a perfect team comes with time and promotion from within, not by poaching the most experienced.

Hence you can avoid most of the drama inside a MMO video game by being extremely selective about what raiders you play with, and what guilds you join. I'd actually suggest people completely avoid guilds that have any presence outside the single video game they are playing to avoid encroachment on your personal/family life.

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Originally Posted by missybee

Xeno's elitism is part of his persona. That's what works for him, his static and his audience. I wouldn't take the attitude of one relatively infamous "bully" to represent the entirety of the raiding community.


I don't think a lot of people are sitting around wondering why more people don't raid. Raiding is difficult. It takes a lot of time, skill and dedication. Generally speaking, it requires people to be better than average at their jobs. Final Fantasy XIV is, for the most part, a very casual game, and the majority of players are completely content with being casual.

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That's not excusable. Nobody is asking for everyone to be a sweet cupcake, because sometimes you do need someone to be "Dr.House" and give it to you straight, but the entire point of "Dr.House" was that he lacked bedside manner or tact, because he only took cases that were challenging. He absolutely did everything possible to avoid doing anything easy. If your patient thinks the pills you prescribe them make their pee smell funny so they stopped taking them, you want the doctor to say "You will ****ing die if you don't take those pills. That is on YOU, not ME."

Hence in a raid, if there is a wipe, identify the problem, not WHO cause the problem. Not enough DPS, ask who can do better. Can't heal through damage, ask if anyone can switch with the healer. Tank is instant-killed on a certain mechanic, switch tanks, etc. If someone you play with simply can't play any role, as apparent by always taking dirt naps as DPS, then perhaps that person needs to try a different DPS. You get absolutely nowhere by kicking people because they aren't the top 1% DPS on a third party unverifiable website.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There would be no problem with that if the hardcore raiders weren't spreading their toxic playstyle to the rest of the game and actively causing or encouraging people to quit the game so they can raid more "without those casuals causing a wipe"

If a raid group kicks a player for any reason not direct attributed to making the game unbearable, that is griefing. Kicking people because they haven't got melded BiS gear, or certain achievements or minions is just plain griefing and people who do that are the ones who need to grow up. If you don't want to play with the filthy casuals, then never touch the DF without a static party. Life does not give you the perfect team, ever, in the job or school environment, learn to adapt, or make certain you always have your dream team ready. But let me tell you, in reality, you don't get to pick people who get to work with you, and a perfect team comes with time and promotion from within, not by poaching the most experienced.

Hence you can avoid most of the drama inside a MMO video game by being extremely selective about what raiders you play with, and what guilds you join. I'd actually suggest people completely avoid guilds that have any presence outside the single video game they are playing to avoid encroachment on your personal/family life.

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What if you think the game is unbearable if you have to play with people who don't have melded gear, certain achievements, or minions? Isn't SE's stance that "playstyle differences" are a valid reason to kick someone? That's so vague and open ended that for all intents and purposes it's basically never griefing to kick someone, unless perhaps you spell out in chat or something that you desire to kick them just to antagonize them.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I watched all of the pod cast. I really didn't see anything offensive. That is just how his raid static does it. He is not saying every static has to do it that way. For the real life job thing above, you have to be more careful with how you dish out criticisms in jobs and real life. You have to do it with more respect rather then trash talk people. If someone tried to trash talk me in real life like some people do in game, I would lay their ass straight on the ground for the disrespect in their tone and actions. You have to be more respectful when you do it in the real world because you don't know how people will react.

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Bragging about how you'd physically assault someone for saying mean things to you doesn't exactly make you look any better.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There would be no problem with that if the hardcore raiders weren't spreading their toxic playstyle to the rest of the game.

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What? I mean it, the question is.. what?
There are more people who spread out bad play than ''toxic'' play that you say. In fact you dont need to be doing that 1% to even raid, yo can be that 10% of the player community. You know what triggers me? All these people asking for nerf and such for a main story trial, doesn't that tell you anything? In fact... we know who's to blame for them not bothering. You see it here, in game and you see it in other threads. ''It's just a game'' ''no need to bother because it's just a game'' You see, I don't disagree it's a game, however, doesnt mean you should have attitude of not trying. When people sponsor bad play this happens...