A detailed Reaction to Warrior in SB

And onslaught... really? Why the heck does it cost rage? Like really.

Someone computed something or other that onslaught potency per rage is not that bad. Well, who cares? Who wants to use onslaught for dps purposes anyhow? And between maxing fell cleaves and upheaval I don't have extra rage for onslaught.

And inner release us bugged too. Delta one boss knockback will knock you back even if you have Inner release on. Also, some hunt bosses stuns WILL stun even with inner release on.

Annoying as heck...

I think any status effect Paladins can cheese avoid with Hallowed (e.g. Susano's slashing debuff) should be removable by Shake It Off. I think that would give some use to the skill at least.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

IB was changed afterwards to what it was in 3.0, being a 100% self heal with a 20% dmg mitigation for 6 seconds which I liked.

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I remember. Old IB was my lifeblood tbqh- It's almost the entire reason I started tanking in the first place. Early on, with full darklight or AF+1 if you knew -exactly- what you were doing, it allowed for almost complete healer independence in WP and AK. It was great. I of course realized right after 2.1 hit that I wouldn't have been able to even do EX trials much less continue with Coil(We had a static, but never got past t2) with how old Warrior was, but I'm still sore about losing the freedom that old IB gave me.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Eh, it was brought up by a really good tank mentor here. I do agree they gutted the identity of the job. Combining offensive tools with defensive tools was really fun.

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Not that no one brings it up, just not brought up as often as I'd like.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Having thought about it a bit more, there's few things I'd want for WAR. Increased self healing on IB, perhaps 150%, and SP restoring some 75% of its done would make the job feel a tad better, IMHO. Cut the gauge cost to a flat 20-30, and for Upheaval to have a bit more of a burst to it. I still like Onslaught's trading some gauge for a quick rush in to reposition or pick up adds, but a small buff to 110pot wouldn't be poor.

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The self heal on path always felt completely pointless to me. The amount is way too low considering you can use it only once every 3rd hit in a combo at absolute best. Regardless, I love you for supporting a buffed IB heal. I'm on the side that dancing just shouldn't cost anything at all and neither should Onslaught, though. Actually, Onslaught should actually GENERATE gauge, to me. Considering how much we actually use and depend on it compared to everyone else, the speed of our gauge generation just isn't high enough at all.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Warriors get 25% more health (Allowing them to 'take' the same raw damage as any other tank with the same baseline tank stance) and 20% more healing (which gets them to about the same ease of healing). The healing bonus doesn't apply to draining effects. They 'passively' mitigate as much as any other tank. Paladins get the addition of a shield which is what Innerbeast effectively puts on demand.

I'd argue as far as outside solo play, the self healing on Storm Path is negligible at best while on Innerbeast, was effectively unchanged (350 potency from 300 is a 16.6% boost. 88% healing on IB is a 12% loss. 1.16 * .88 = 1.02)

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About that- it was years ago now, but I'm pretty sure someone on the forums did the math if you wanted to dig that up. IB itself was never actually meant to be used as a defensive cooldown- I mean it works great as one of course, but it's net benefit was roughly the same as that that a paladin has always gotten simply by holding a shield and standing there.
On top of that, Defiance itself is and always has been worse than shield oath/grit in terms of defensive capability. Though after a Warrior has been healed (after initial activation) and assuming identical healers are constantly healing the Warrior as they would a Paladin, Defiance and Shield Oath are effectively identical (there's an EXTREMELY small eHP difference between the two- Shield Oath is on top but it's completely negligible.) yes, but Shield Oath has always come ahead even after the buff because of how it interacts with other cooldowns. I don't remember the exacts(the math, again, is from like 2.1 or so. It should be on the forums though if you were interested.) but essentially it came down to cooldowns being more effective across the board in terms of eHP granted, even before the shield was accounted for(which has always made Paladin flat out better at not dying.) Not to mention Warrior specific CDs(Bloodbath, Holmgang, Thrill, Veng) have always been 1:1 worse than their Paladin equivalents. I'm not going to pick apart individual skills here though since that's something that people who are smarter than me will do.

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

Regardless, I love you for supporting a buffed IB heal. I'm on the side that dancing just shouldn't cost anything at all and neither should Onslaught, though. Actually, Onslaught should actually GENERATE gauge, to me. Considering how much we actually use and depend on it compared to everyone else, the speed of our gauge generation just isn't high enough at all.

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Eh. I don't think a lack of cost is a good thing. It dumbs down the gameplay, IMHO. I find a reasonable cost a lot more fun. Ironically, though, SAM and WAR generate gauge at around the same rate. Actually, I'd say WAR generates it a twice as fast! Which is amusing to me, because SAM uses their gauge a lot more than WAR. Maybe that's why it doesn't really bug me. I like the Onslaught cost, and all I'd want is for the beast gauge cost to drop to a reasonable 20.

Incidentally, in 9 GCDS, SAM generates 55 of their gauge. WAR generates 80.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Eh. I don't think a lack of cost is a good thing. It dumbs down the gameplay, IMHO. I find a reasonable cost a lot more fun. Ironically, though, SAM and WAR generate gauge at around the same rate. Actually, I'd say WAR generates it a twice as fast! Which is amusing to me, because SAM uses their gauge a lot more than WAR. Maybe that's why it doesn't really bug me.

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Kind of. Samurai uses it more but the amounts are much smaller. One ogcd that costs 50(on a 2 minute cd) and the rest is 20. Also, faster attacks due to Kasha and also Hagakure is on a shorter CD than Infuriate. Meanwhile, Warrior's two most important skills all cost 50, stance dancing halves it(though it just shouldn't, regardless of if you're in the no cost camp or the fixed/capped cost camp), our two gauge AoEs also cost 50, Onslaught is basically useless in most circumstances because of how it'd screw up our rotation due to the cost, and our answer to Meikyo Shisui(Inner Release) also costs 20 for some reason.

...Upheaval is basically perfect to me though. :>

Regardless, it's totally possible to have complexity come without hindering adaptability. Removing costs on Onslaught and stance isn't necessarily dumbing it down at all.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

There has to be some logical reason they literally took away basically every single positive WITHOUT replacing them. There has to be a logical reason why they made us more stance oriented then ever yet punished us so badly for doing what the design of the class literally encourages us to do.

Them running out of time in tuning the class would explain it. And we basically have one chance with savage to get things fixed, if not we're PLD 2.0 for SB.

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I feel like it has less to do with them running out of time and more to do with them simply having no idea of what they're doing when it comes to balancing. Since for some strange reason it often feels like SE believes that "balancing" means buffing the current least desirable choice sky high. While also at the same time nerfing the most desirable choices into the ground.

Though given that seems absolutely nonsensical I feel like two different teams that don't communicate probably handle buffing and nerfing. Because otherwise it doesn't make any sense at all as to why they overtuned PLD so greatly while gutting WAR/DRK so much in comparison. Since it doesn't take a genius to realize that making one single Tank excel at literally everything with no downsides and making the other 2 Tanks so outright inferior is a bad idea.

SAM actually doesn't have an answer to Inner Release, barring maybe Hagakure. And while the amounts may be smaller, WAR still generates their moves a lot quicker, or at least at a similar pace, alternating between 4-6 GCD while it takes SAM 5 to generate kenki for their main move, which costs 25. Namely, that's Shinten.

I could not write it better, good job in making this thread.

I played as war in HW, and I agree 100% with you.

Normally I never voice up my thoughts, but I am so so utterly disappointed.
I mean, do they not play their own game?
The whole experience in game play as war, changed.

How is it even possible.....

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Originally Posted by testname

I could not write it better, good job in making this thread.

I played as war in HW, and I agree 100% with you.

Normally I never voice up my thoughts, but I am so so utterly disappointed.
I mean, do they not play their own game?
The whole experience in game play as war, changed.

How is it even possible.....

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I'm pretty quiet too, but I was so disappointed in SB that I had to come on here and voice my disappointment.