Reevaluation to Tanks Stances and Related Abilities

Phoenicia, I'm disappointed. I thought that you would know that I wasn't trying to separate "bad tanks" from "good tanks" but merely stating when one tank is acting more like a tank than another one. Because it's really really clear that if one leaves their tank stance they're acting more like a DPS right now. That's obvious. It's not bad, it's just a fact.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Phoenicia, I'm disappointed. I thought that you would know that I wasn't trying to separate "bad tanks" from "good tanks" but merely stating when one tank is acting more like a tank than another one. Because it's really really clear that if one leaves their tank stance they're acting more like a DPS right now. That's obvious. It's not bad, it's just a fact.

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Well, if you are not trying to separate good from bad tanks, but rather the behavior of dropping the tanking stance itself, I will agree with you. It is not a "tank-like" behavior to take more damage in order to deal more.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Well, if you are not trying to separate good from bad tanks, but rather the behavior of dropping the tanking stance itself, I will agree with you. It is not a "tank-like" behavior to take more damage in order to deal more.

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I would just like to point out, a WAR takes the exact same about of damage in or out of Defiance (perhaps less, as they should be more inclined to proper cooldown usage).

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Originally Posted by Pooky_Pasha

I would just like to point out, a WAR takes the exact same about of damage in or out of Defiance (perhaps less, as they should be more inclined to proper cooldown usage).

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That's just fiddily math. Defiance increases Maximum HP by 25% and increases Healing Received by 20%. The other stances decrease damage taken by 20%. This is equivalent to increasing both Maximum HP and Healing Received by 25%. Defiance may not decrease the value of the red number, but it is equivalent to taking less damage.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

But even in WoW tanks had stances, Warrior had defensive stance, Pally had Divine Fervor or w/e, Druid had to be in bear form and DK needed to be in Frost Rune or whatever.

Stances simplify the need of separating Main-tank and Off-tank roles. Tanking? Turn on tank stance, pretending to be DPS/OT? Turn it off. What this game needs to fix this "silliness" and "untanklike behavior" problem is to make encounters require tank stances. Up the damage of auto attacks to a level where regen doesn't tick higher than the raid boss's auto-attack.

Stances going oGCD for non-WAR tanks is fine if WAR gets healed 25% of its current health when swapping as well. That would make them balanced.

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Righteous Fury, and its not tank spec specific.

Holy tank on niche fights ftw.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Ahhh, Karazhan Nightmares. lol

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Nope, Sartharion + 3 drakes. Tenebron swarm tank. RF, healbomb the tanks. All the whelps and fire elementals on me.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Righteous Fury, and its not tank spec specific.

Holy tank on niche fights ftw.

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Ahhh, Karazhan Nightmares. lol

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Originally Posted by Donjo

That's just fiddily math. Defiance increases Maximum HP by 25% and increases Healing Received by 20%. The other stances decrease damage taken by 20%. This is equivalent to increasing both Maximum HP and Healing Received by 25%. Defiance may not decrease the value of the red number, but it is equivalent to taking less damage.

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It's not equivalent to taking less damage. It's only equivalent if you are being healed at that exact moment.
Let's look at the numbers.
Tank 1 is a WAR with 120 HP, in their tank stance. They take a hit for 20 damage. They lose 20 hp. The healers are busy DPSing at the time and don't heal the tank. The tank has just lost some DPS for no gain at all.
Tank 2 is a WAR with 100 HP, out of their tank stance. They take a hit for 20 damage. They lose 20 hp. The healers are busy DPSing at the time and don't heal the tank. The tank has gained a slight amount of DPS while not losing out on heals, as there were none.
Tank 3 is a WAR with 120 HP, in their tank stance. They take a hit for 20 damage. They lose 20 hp. The healers are focusing them and they are healed immediately for 20 hp. The tank loses out on DPS, but gains in heals.


In all of these situations, the WAR takes 20 damage.
However, the tank stance is only an advantage in the WAR's case if he is being healed or if attacks are coming in that necessitate a large buffer of HP (read: tank busters).
In the case of PLD or DRK, the tank stance directly reduces all incoming damage, which is functionally equivalent to Tank #3's situation ONLY.

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Originally Posted by Misha_Tameshigiri

It's not equivalent to taking less damage. It's only equivalent if you are being healed at that exact moment.
Let's look at the numbers.
Tank 1 is a WAR with 120 HP, in their tank stance. They take a hit for 20 damage. They lose 20 hp. The healers are busy DPSing at the time and don't heal the tank. The tank has just lost some DPS for no gain at all.
Tank 2 is a WAR with 100 HP, out of their tank stance. They take a hit for 20 damage. They lose 20 hp. The healers are busy DPSing at the time and don't heal the tank. The tank has gained a slight amount of DPS while not losing out on heals, as there were none.
Tank 3 is a WAR with 120 HP, in their tank stance. They take a hit for 20 damage. They lose 20 hp. The healers are focusing them and they are healed immediately for 20 hp. The tank loses out on DPS, but gains in heals.


In all of these situations, the WAR takes 20 damage.
However, the tank stance is only an advantage in the WAR's case if he is being healed or if attacks are coming in that necessitate a large buffer of HP (read: tank busters).
In the case of PLD or DRK, the tank stance directly reduces all incoming damage, which is functionally equivalent to Tank #3's situation ONLY.

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The red numbers are a trap.

Situation 1: Tank 1(WAR in Defiance) has 125 HP(100%). They are hit for 25 Damage(-20%). They now have 80% HP left.
Situation 2: Tank 2(Tank 1 in Deliverance) has 100 HP(100%). They are hit for 25 Damage(-25%). They now have 75% HP left.
Situation 3: Identical to Situation 1 damage-wise. So I'll use a PLD example. Tank 3(PLD in Shield Oath) has 100 HP(100%). They are hit for 25(-25%) damage, which the Oath reduces to 20(-20%) damage. They now have 80% HP left.

Tank 1 and Tank 3 are capable of taking 3 more hits before healing is critically necessary. Their situations are, in fact, identical. Tank 2 is capable of taking only 2 more. When these Tanks do finally receive a heal:

Tank 2 and 3 are healed for the same percentage of their maximum HP.
Tank 1 is healed for slightly less of a percentage, and then they use Inner Beast.

Defiance only has two things going against it:

1. Entering the Stance does not heal you for the +25% max HP it gives you.
2. The healing increase is 20% instead of 25%. The existence of Equilibrium makes this less of an discrepancy than it ever was before. Effective use of it and other self heals can even nullify the previous point.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Defiance only has two things going against it:

1. Entering the Stance does not heal you for the +25% max HP it gives you.
2. The healing increase is 20% instead of 25%. The existence of Equilibrium makes this less of an discrepancy than it ever was before. Effective use of it and other self heals can even nullify the previous point.

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You forgot the fact that no abilities are increased by Defiance. Asylum, Tetragrammaton, Lustrate, Essential Dignity. All of these don't even get the 20% boost from Defiance so they're significantly less effective on WAR compared to DRK/PLD.

I realized that it's actually a NECESSARY evil for healing buffs to not work on abilities. Why? Because healing buffs hold no influence on abilities, neither do healing debuffs! Hello Ramuh EX.


Allot of SCH were nervous about the change to Lustrate from 25% to 600 potency. This change was overall better for Pld/drk (~5%less on War) and always better for all tanks when it crits.