Hardcore is not a dirty word

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bled

What happened to you is you grew out of the game... that happens to a lot of people. However that does not validate that FF11 was not a hardcore game. Hardcore games take a lot of invested time and you don't like that any more, that does not mean hardcore has changed it means you have changed.

---

You're right, I grew out of the game. The trouble is, when you grow out of something, you tend to look at it objectively, I saw FFXI for what it was, it was never hardcore, it was just a bog standard MMO for its generation.

oh and also Final Fantasy is not a hardcore franchise, all of them can be beaten by anyone who decides to play them...usually in about 40 hours or less (or so the story goes...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

You're right, I grew out of the game. The trouble is, when you grow out of something, you tend to look at it objectively, I saw FFXI for what it was, it was never hardcore, it was just a bog standard MMO for its generation.

---

It fits the definition of a hardcore game to the "T" just like Disgaea, and just like Persona. You state that you are objectively looking at the game i would argue no, you are trying to rationalize to yourself why you no longer like the game when you at one time did. You at no point defined why FF11 was not a hardcore game yet you gave a mountain of objective evidence as to why it is a hardcore game.

HIGH TIME INVESTMENT

Of course i disagree that the mechanics were not complex, however you are allowed to have your opinions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bled

here are just some of the features that made the game hardcore:

• Not for solo players.
• Hard to level.
• High learning curve.
• Ton of camping.
• Huge time investment needed.
• economy based on supply and demand which was then based on time invested into drop rates.

If you view those features as annoying and not "fun" then the games just not for you plain and simple. It dose not make it any less of a hardcore game just because you don't like those features.

And to the irony of your post you were combating popular belief with the most popular discredited definition site lol.

---

I can agree with those first three points but.... ton of camping?

So like, a game is hardcore if you spend ages sitting around waiting for something to happen? That's like saying being in a queue for a theme park ride is hardcore.

Huge time investment needed, that's all decided by the player. An MMO doesn't NEED a lot of time wasted on it to offer rewards, it all depends on the player and their play-style. A person can hit max level and do end-game content without having to give up their day job to do it.

And the supply & demand thing isn't actually a good thing. Relying on item drop rates to be able to purchase equipment is what caused R.M.T to come into existance, and R.M.T allows players to 'buy their win'.

I question if XI was not hardcore what is a hardcore mmo? Because XI is probably one of the most hardcore mmos out there along side Lineage and Everquest in my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xatsh

I question if XI was not hardcore what is a hardcore mmo? Because XI is probably one of the most hardcore mmos out there along side Lineage and Everquest in my opinion.

---

I question the very idea of a Hard Core MMO at all...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

I question the very idea of a Hard Core MMO at all...

---

I question if such a thing even exists.

I think, like the dreaded 'immersion', 'hardcore' gameplay is just as subjective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bled

here are just some of the features that made the game hardcore:

• Not for solo players.
• Hard to level.
• High learning curve.
• Ton of camping.
• Huge time investment needed.
• economy based on supply and demand which was then based on time invested into drop rates.

If you view those features as annoying and not "fun" then the games just not for you plain and simple. It dose not make it any less of a hardcore game just because you don't like those features.

And to the irony of your post you were combating popular belief with the most popular discredited definition site lol.

---

Ah, see, now we're getting somewhere!

Now, I'd personally disagree that the camping or the economy qualify as hardcore, but that's mostly because I don't consider waiting to be hardcore. The time investment thing, I could go either way. I personally always thought of hardcore as requiring skill more than time, but time investment is, at the very least, a major connotation, so whatever. As to the rest, I've really nothing to say about them, having never actually played XI.

And about the irony. . . well, touché, but let's see you define a word without an appeal to the majority or appeal to authority. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Konachibi

I question if such a thing even exists.

I think, like the dreaded 'immersion', 'hardcore' gameplay is just as subjective.

---

finally some one gets it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Konachibi

I can agree with those first three points but.... ton of camping?

So like, a game is hardcore if you spend ages sitting around waiting for something to happen? That's like saying being in a queue for a theme park ride is hardcore.

Huge time investment needed, that's all decided by the player. An MMO doesn't NEED a lot of time wasted on it to offer rewards, it all depends on the player and their play-style. A person can hit max level and do end-game content without having to give up their day job to do it.

And the supply & demand thing isn't actually a good thing. Relying on item drop rates to be able to purchase equipment is what caused R.M.T to come into existance, and R.M.T allows players to 'buy their win'.

---

Camping is preparing, the points between battle that include strategizing for the next battle... anything can sound bad if you define it incorrectly.

If you really want to use a theme park as an example then here you go:

Top Hill Dragster, longest wait for a roller coaster - Hardcore roller coaster enthusiasts, more complex, viewed as more of a thrill

Gemini, extremely short wait for ride - casual roller coaster, not as complex, a moderate thrill.

Like i said earlier i can play Hello Kitty Island Adventure hardcore, but the game its self is not hardcore.

Supply and demand is essential to any economy... RMT's are the problem not supply and demand..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

finally some one gets it!

---

Hooray! Do I get a cookie? :D

The more I hear people talk about FFXI on here the more I want to give it another go, but I won't because I already know all the low levels zones are empty which would leave me mindlessly grinding away on lowbie mobs for months on end just to get to an area where I may 'possibly' find one or two players.