Do the Primals Know Each Other?

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

I admit I started having doubts myself about that very idea no sooner had I actually posted that. :p I guess it just struck me as odd that Estinien would specifically mention Iceheart as being a minion of Nidhogg when, as an Echo user, shouldn't she be actually immune to such influence? I know she's the leader of the Heretics, but, aren't the heretics meant to be effectively tempered by the dragons (like a Primal)? Who is manipulating whom here?

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I don't think it's ever been implied that there's any kind of supernatural brainwashing involved when it comes to the heretics. They sympethize with the dragons of their own free will.

Or, at least, some of them do. Now that they're meddling about with Primals, it's possible that the Heretics have developed the ability to temper folks even when Iceheart isn't Shiva, just as the beastmen can temper folks without the direct presence of their Primal. Even so, Shiva is a recent creation, so if the heretics ARE using tempering to swell their ranks, that is a recent development. Prior to that, all heretics were there by choice.

We haven't seen much of the story from the Heretics' point of view. To the Ishgardians, the Heretics are wretched betrayers of humanity, siding with the monstrous dragons who must all be slain at all costs. The Ishgardians don't seem to know or care WHY the Heretics have sided with the dragons. Knowing the Heretics' reasons will be a key indicator of how sympethetic they're meant to be. Do they side with the dragons because they're aware of Ishgard's "sin" and know that the dragons are in the right? Do they side with the dragons because they are tired of centuries of war, they believe the dragons will win in the end, and so they want to bring the war to a close as soon as possible? Do they admire and covet the power of dragons, and side with them in the hopes of gaining personal power?

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I don't think it's ever been implied that there's any kind of supernatural brainwashing involved when it comes to the heretics.

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It's been implied that a dragon has a weird sway over the minds of the "weak willed." We've been told that minutes after Nidhogg first intercepted the group sent by Halone to found Ishgard, one of Thordan's own men suddenly decided it'd be a great idea to throw him into a chasm, for instance.

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Originally Posted by Yuhelmeric

The draconian rosary is the mark of a heretic. The mark of one who has given his soul over to the dragons. Doubt not that they are cunning creatures, beguiling to the weak of mind, and all who lust after power. Such men are apt prey for the foul spells of the dragonkin. Their wills are broken, and with them their oaths to Ishgard. For that, we brand them heretics.

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It's spoken of like Tempering, but I'm not sure if that's enough to conclude they're the same (yet). We've never heard Heretics rambling on about the blessings of and service to the one true god; they just seem compelled. It could be akin to the theorized way larger, more powerful dragons seem to compel and organize the lines below them. Midgardsormr could be read as implying that the Dragonsong itself has this compelling effect. Or, Ishgard's point of view could all be lies, lol.

I'm sure some of them probably did end up there out of choice, though - the shunned, dishonored, and exiled need somewhere to go, as do those that feel they've been denied power, station, and wealth that they deserve. That bitterness and desire would make them, as Yuhelmeric said, easy prey.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

It's spoken of like Tempering,

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Well, the fact that it's an Ishgardian speaking of it lends a certain bias. I always felt that statements like these were similar to how Christians blame Satan for "turning people evil" from time to time - the implication that normal, yet weak-willed people can be influenced by Satan to do evil acts. Even (maybe even especially) in the case of the old story of Thordan's expedition - we know his man betrayed him, but we only have the legend told by a group of dragon-haters that a dragon was responsible for the act. In reality, he could have had other reasons for doing so.

Given that this is a fantasy game, though, it's not impossible that the Dragons DO have some kind of literal mind-control powers. Are we to assume that all heretics are under this influence? Iceheart doesn't seem particularly weak-willed, for instance. Is she the sole execption, or are there others? Are brainwashed individuals a minority or the majority?

We just don't know enough about the heretics to say one way or another, and our primary source of intelligence on the heretics is the Ishgardians who hate them almost as much as they hate dragons.

Just a thought, but as primals feed on Aether and prayers from their followers, wouldn't they just be able to "know" things by the memories and thoughts of their worshipers ?

Sorry if it has already been said or if it's idiotic, but that was what I thought when I saw the cutscenes originally.

Taken a step further, I think the Primals are really the sum or collective consciousness of all who summoned them. They are distinct sentient beings but they share similar motives as their summoners and even feel their pain (Titan feels the pain of the kobalds and calls them brothers for example).

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Taken a step further, I think the Primals are really the sum or collective consciousness of all who summoned them. They are distinct sentient beings but they share similar motives as their summoners and even feel their pain (Titan feels the pain of the kobalds and calls them brothers for example).

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I thought he refured to the Kobolds as his children?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I thought he refured to the Kobolds as his children?

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^This.

/10char

I always thought they at least now if each other. Perhaps in the past they might've have even fought each other.

Still, I'm not too sure what Garuda was thinking in forcing the Kobolds, Amaal'ja, Ixali priest in summoning their primals. A last ditched effort?