Do the Primals Know Each Other?

[Veritas-Ancora]

I mean, you would think so, but they're only summoned with mass quantities of crystals of different elements, so it seems unlikely.

Ramuh, however, identified you as the champion of Titan, Ifrit, Garuda, and Leviathan.

Question is: did the sylphs tell him that? Or was this something aether related?

[Anonymoose]

This question actually has a surprisingly official answer. Last year we asked Fernehalwes (Koji Fox) about the process of writing lyrics for primal songs and doing vocal work with Soken and such, and part of his reply, I think, answers your question:

I like to think that, with the Primals, while they’re not connected, they’re kind of connected, because its all one world. You would think that all of these Primals know of each other. The themes are, again, very similar; even though each primal and tribe has its own agenda, it’s all kind of the same – there is a connection there.

Ramuh, though, is a whole other can of worms. He muses on the age before man like he's Grandpa telling you about when pop was a nickel and movies were a nickel and if you had your friends had a quarter you could just drive and drive... and yet he's not an elder primal (as far as any hints imply). We have theories, but we can't prove one way or another how he knows these things.

Of course, when it comes specifically to the topic of the Warrior of Light, I assume the Sylphs just told him who it was they were trying to stall in the woods and why.

[Allyrion]

I mean Titan and Ifrit were chilling in the Silvertear Lake together, as we see them come out in 1.0's Opening.

I don't think they're in league with one another, but they probably know each other well.

Ramuh, though, is a whole other can of worms. He muses on the age before man like he's Grandpa telling you about when pop was a nickel and movies were a nickel and if you had your friends had a quarter you could just drive and drive... and yet he's not an elder primal (as far as any hints imply). We have theories, but we can't prove one way or another how he knows these things.

I was under the impression that Elder Primal simply meant a Primal who is known mostly from earlier times, and usually from cultures that don't exist or worship them anymore.
But Ramuh is still well known because the Sylphs are still around and still revere him.
As such, this would mean that the Sylphs were here before Man or that he was worshipped by some other group before them.

I got that impression from the FF wiki, but I'm not sure their source:

The term "Elder Primal" indicates those worshiped/summoned in older eras (i.e. before the Sixth Astral Era), often from cultures that no longer exist.

Source

Seems to fit how they use it more. A Deity from older times, known more as a Legend/Myth in current times.

[Mahri]

It is fact that King Mog and Odin hang out all the time. You wouldn't think so, but it's true. They're old buds that go way back.

[Enkidoh]

Well, also don't forget that even back in 1.0, it was made pretty clear that the Primals are definitely aware of each other's existence, but, they definitely are not allied with each other, and seem to regard each other as lessors and themselves as the 'one true god'.

Ifrit especially had this attitude - in 1.0 when he first tried to temper the player unsuccessfully and realized they were protected by the Echo, he actually thought that the player was already tempered by another Primal (stating that he detected the "taint upon their soul"), and specifically mentioned Titan, Garuda and Leviathan while at the same time belittling them and making the player swear that they "shall forsake the summoning of another" (Primal).

Although ARR retcons a lot, I'm liable to regard this as still officially canon (especially when viewed with Ferne's statement Moose posted above).

[Anonymoose]

Although ARR retcons a lot, I'm liable to regard this as still officially canon

That scene was clearly scrapped for parts and scored onto ARR's main scenario, but ... they can't just, like, pretend it didn't happen, right? From a story standpoint, we had to have had that conversation with Ifrit in 1572(6A), and then we had the same exact conversation in 5(7U), and nobody thought anything of it. Even weirder, five years ago he said the Paragon made him promise not to harm "the godless blessed" and now he claims the Paragon said we can't be suffered to live, which, okay, but still. We've brought this up before and it's yet to be acknowledged.

What do you think? Did he forget us like everyone else did? Did the Amalj'aa or the aether of the land forget us and thus it was not imbued into him? Does each summoning of Ifrit have its own memory since fire is primarily assocated with consumption and rage? /chinscratch

[Allyrion]

That scene was clearly scrapped for parts and scored onto ARR's main scenario, but ... they can't just, like, pretend it didn't happen, right? From a story standpoint, we had to have had that conversation with Ifrit in 1572(6A), and then we had the same exact conversation in 5(7U), and nobody thought anything of it. Even weirder, five years ago he said the Paragon made him promise not to harm "the godless blessed" and now he claims the Paragon said we can't be suffered to live, which, okay, but still. We've brought this up before and it's yet to be acknowledged.

What do you think? Did he forget us like everyone else did? Did the Amalj'aa or the aether of the land forget us and thus it was not imbued into him? Does each summoning of Ifrit have its own memory since fire is primarily assocated with consumption and rage? /chinscratch

I also wanted to bring up that this comes to another question on the Primals -
The most basic question, what exactly are they?

I know it seems like a leap to think we have to discuss the existential nature of the primals for this matter, but I think all our preconceptions on the primals are called into question in the Main Story as a main point.
My question is, is the Ifrit of 1.0 even the same Ifrit of 2.0? Do we really know?

Good King Moogle Mog, Shiva and Enkidu are the obvious outliers.
Shiva was a mortal before, but was brought back in Primal form and controlled.
King Moogle Mog was said to not be the real King Moogle Mog by the Moogles we worked with, and didn't have the same characteristics. This King Moogle was a Primal born from a ritual and a wish.
Lastly, Enkidu didn't even need a ritual but only needed the crystals and Gilgamesh's desire. We're not sure it was a Primal, or if this case is even canon, but I still think it's worth considering.

Then there's Pheonix.
Was Pheonix a Primal (maybe Elder) before Louisouix became the Pheonix?
Was he controlling an older Primal? Or did he actually create a new Primal?
The latter bears resemblance to Iceheart's transformation into Shiva.
I wonder if Shiva holds the real Shiva's memories or if it's simply a taken form of Iceheart.

It led me to wonder if not all the Primals were not once a transcended figure from their respective tribes that transformed during a time of need and prayer (with some aether source available, by chance).
A saviour to their people that transcended into godhood and worshipped then on.
If we were ever to summon Phoenix (obviously not a great idea) again, would we actually be summoning Louisouix or would it have a different sentience and memories?

I think the new King Moogle Mog was created on the spot, but does it have the memories, perhaps gotten from the Moogles that summoned him?
Same for Enkidu. I think it believes it's the real Enkidu and it's memories and likeness formed from Gilgamesh's memories of Enkidu.

That's how I question if Ifrit in 2.0 is the same Ifrit of 1.0.
If the beastmen forgot and that's why the new summoned Ifrit may not remember.
Easily, it could just be a case like -

One I can recall is when you meet Minfillia again she comments about not forgetting who you are and how you have echo... but then proceeds to explain what Echo is like we were an ARR player

But the question of their sentience continuing past their death into resummoning is a worthy one.
Particularly when we have created Primals formed from things that were never associated with being some race/entity type called Primal in the first place.
Such as Shiva(clearly not), King Moogle Mog(implied not) and Enkidu (probably not).

But then there's Ramuh, who clearly remembers a lot.
He seems to bear memory that I really doubt the Sylphs that worship him would have, and it's present as true exposition rather than the ramblings of a Primal.
He even doesn't seem to care if we banish him, since we proved ourselves and he'd come back if needed again.
I get a stronger sense he's just going back to some other realm and not getting recreated everytime.
But he's the only one I can really say that of.

I think we'll learn more of Primal nature as we go on.
But Minfilia clearly marks whenever we have things not following the assumptions we've made on the Primals. It's a plot point they seemingly want to address.
I think learning more about the nature of Primals would also be on our way to understanding the Ascians, Hydaelyn and Zodiark.
Maybe even the Archons that were the 12 in human form.
But that's another thread.

[Anonymoose]

I got that impression from the FF wiki, but I'm not sure their source:

As good as the FF Wiki is, when it comes to the little details of XIV lore, they tend to fill in the holes with assumptions and theories from these forums (which, as good as those are, are mostly unconfirmed), but then not mark them as such. And that's not me putting them down, especially because that elder primal thing is probably my own damn fault, lol.

That quest line actually makes me question if an elder primal is anything but a primal from a bygone era.

Fortunately, we have a new definition of Elder Primal, and the source is as official as it gets.

Snipped from [Full Interview]

Fusionx: What is the difference between a Primal and an Elder Primal?

Koji Fox: Basically it’s all a matter of length of worship. With primals, it’s all about how you have someone worshiping you and you become that primal and they believe in you and you get your power from that. For the Ixal or the Amalj’aa, it’s the belief that makes the aether combine to summon forth these primals—so when you look at Ifrit, and Titan, and the one’s we’re calling primals, they’re considered very young. They’ve been believing in them for a long time, but looked at in a span of all the eras it’s not that much time.<...>

Anwyll: Originally, we thought it might be more complicated than that, <...> but it’s just has to do with the length of time?

Koji Fox: Basic length of time.

(The more often I quote this one, the better I feel about how much time we spend polishing possible interview questions to best serve the in-depth Lore community as a whole, lol.)

The most basic question, what exactly are [primals]?

Their exact nature remains unknown, but on the whole they're the result of aether reacting to prayer. There could be slightly more than that, they could be no more than that.

My question is, is the Ifrit of 1.0 even the same Ifrit of 2.0? Do we really know?

We do not. The only hint we'd have as to Ifrit's long-term memory is the example above, which is mired by being part of the same story told by different versions of the game.

Good King Moogle Mog, Shiva and Enkidu are the obvious outliers.

Correct. Well, I'd throw out Enkidu. At best, the Hildibrand storyline hugely exaggerates the lore for comedic effect, stretching reality too far to be implicitly trusted. At worst, it's one-way canon (everything that's happened in Eorzea is true to Hildy, nothing that happens in Hildy is canon to Eorzea). The fact that Gilgamesh got lonely next to a box of crystals and they reacted to him desperately wanting his friend back is probably more joke than not-joke.

But with the other primals, we've seen enough to have questions, but not enough to rule anything out.

If there's no more to it than aether and prayer, even the outliers can be explained away. Moggle and Bahamut end up having a lot in common as re-creations of a great ancestor (granted we don't know if Moggle even existed). Shiva ends up being the essence of the land shaped by specific prayers and fused to an Echo user's soul. Phoenix ends up being the result of people praying Louisoix would save them just as Louisoix is thinking about Eorzea's rebirth from the ashes. The original five primals end up being supremely OP elementals.

If there's more to it than that, then we get to start asking some pretty heavy questions. Is a soul part of it? Are we recalling the memories of past entities from the lifestream? Were they all deiformed, as was Louisoix? Or do all of those things happen and being primarily aether and prayer is what connects them? Your post alone asks a hearty chunk of these questions.

Was he controlling an older Primal? Or did he actually create a new Primal? The latter bears resemblance to Iceheart's transformation into Shiva.

It's never been stated so specifically as to confirm it beyond the shadow of a doubt, but the game says Louisoix became a primal whereas Ysayle hosted one. It talks of Phoenix as if it were born and talks of Shiva as if she were conjured.

Whatever the case, I'm sure Ravana, Bismarck, and the Allag ruins will give us a little more to work with.

At least I hope they doesn't just stir the pot without any further developments on what's actually in the pot.

WHAT'S IN THE POT!?

[Allyrion]

As good as the FF Wiki is, when it comes to the little details of XIV lore, they tend to fill in the holes with assumptions and theories from these forums (which, as good as those are, are mostly unconfirmed), but then not mark them as such. And that's not me putting them down, especially because that elder primal thing is probably my own damn fault, lol.

So I just quoted you your own theory. Nice! Hahah, thanks for the clarification though.

On the rest of your post,
I hope too that we get some better understanding, even if some things shake up the foundation a little.

More on point, I'm not sure how to conceive of the Primals as 'characters'.
Since it feels like they're portrayed as this one character(Ifrit is Ifrit), while there's these subplots that question what it means to be or become a Primal.
It's weird to struggle with such a basic conception of this very important group that you interact with.

I guess the same could be said of the Ascians, but we can say that Lahabrea is the same Lahabrea after he died and came back.
And though we don't know how they came to be, their existence doesn't seem tied to something so whimsical as wishes.