If DRG does in fact get a buff...

Linked the video I posted as well as my personal custom build at i111 on initial post. Yes things are getting a little off topic. The main point is that the gap that is claimed to exist between dragoon and the other melees is not as large as people make it out to be. Does DRG need a buff? I do not think so.

I am sure he is a capable player. From the video he posted (average numbers for a DRG anyways), I can't see much fault in his rotation or skills at the job.

The ridiculous part came in the nature of the original post. No amount of buffs to drg damage will enable it to pull hate from a tank any more than a BRD who doesn't quelling strikes and blows all their buffs on the pull, or a BLM who raging strikes and starts swiftcasting fire 3's.

What ended up after 3 1/2 pages of ridiculous back and forth, was further proof that A: DRG needs a damage buff in order to keep up with other melee DPS, and B: DRG needs a mdef buff in order for more realistic survivability. Basically the thread came across as DRG being perfect as it is, with everything posted thereafter as more proof that DRG needs changes.

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Originally Posted by Verus

Linked the video I posted as well as my personal custom build at i111 on initial post. Yes things are getting a little off topic. The main point is that the gap that is claimed to exist between dragoon and the other melees is not as large as people make it out to be. Does DRG need a buff? I do not think so.

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The gap isn't huge. You are correct.
A DRG can come within 30-40 dps of a mnk or ninja. The gap is smaller than the difference between someone good at the class, and someone who isn't.
The fact of the matter is, there is still a gap, and no amount of perfecting your rotation or gear will actually overcome those deficiencies.

Damage throughput is also a minor, and honestly, insignificant part of the buffs required for DRG.

If we got silence, something equivalent to MNK traited mantra, and having our MDEF and DEF stats on par with MNK, then I would consider that an absolutely acceptable class buff.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

I am sure he is a capable player. From the video he posted (average numbers for a DRG anyways), I can't see much fault in his rotation or skills at the job.

The ridiculous part came in the nature of the original post. No amount of buffs to drg damage will enable it to pull hate from a tank any more than a BRD who doesn't quelling strikes and blows all their buffs on the pull, or a BLM who raging strikes and starts swiftcasting fire 3's.

What ended up after 3 1/2 pages of ridiculous back and forth, was further proof that A: DRG needs a damage buff in order to keep up with other melee DPS, and B: DRG needs a mdef buff in order for more realistic survivability. Basically the thread came across as DRG being perfect as it is, with everything posted thereafter as more proof that DRG needs changes.

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It was not meant to come off that DRG are perfect so if I came off that way that was not my intention. Utility buffs would be most welcome. It is extremely frustrating to make the choice of using b4b because the cooldown came up or waiting for a tether mechanic in t10 because it force oneshots the 2 others you are stacked with if its up. Mdef yes please. As far as damage we could use a slight buff perhaps, I would love to have my class be better than what it is. I have had multiple attempts where I will rip off our PLD that pulls the boss. I've had to wait 1 global before engagement to prevent this repeating just to clear content. In this thread people claim that I have bad tanks in raid and that is why I rip. If the tanks felt safe enough to sacrifice some hp and/or parry to increase damage I'm sure aggro would not be an issue but survivability of tanks is more important. It does sound weird to rip off a tank on initial pull but it started back when they buffed DRG last time. Another buff too substantial might quite possibly make drg king of single target numbers and with how they do damage it will result in many more drg ripping.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

The gap isn't huge. You are correct.
A DRG can come within 30-40 dps of a mnk or ninja. The gap is smaller than the difference between someone good at the class, and someone who isn't.
The fact of the matter is, there is still a gap, and no amount of perfecting your rotation or gear will actually overcome those deficiencies.

Damage throughput is also a minor, and honestly, insignificant part of the buffs required for DRG.

If we got silence, something equivalent to MNK traited mantra, and having our MDEF and DEF stats on par with MNK, then I would consider that an absolutely acceptable class buff.

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I think something as simple as increased duration of HT (to allow another Full Thrust combo in) before having to re-apply, along with our Slow attack being moved to OGCD, would do the trick.

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Originally Posted by Verus

I ask for evidence in equivalent gear on a mnk because the good ones I know cap out at the same dps as me even with 2 i130 gear pcs.

For reference, 3 pcs of i110 crafted seem to add about 30 dps to drg and potions on cd a slight increase.

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Well, here's what you ask for:

Monk doing 517 in iLvl 110 (neither buff food nor party buff)
Monk doing 490-500 DPS
Ninja doing 520 DPS in iLvl 110 (watch the DPS meter for the first 20 seconds, he's near the 600 mark, so burst isn't like worlds apart)

You said that you pushed 500+ DPS prior to Shiva bracelet and crafted gear and without spending any poetics ... but you merely showed like 465 ... compared to MNK/NIN we are seeing a difference of more than 50 DPS, which is more than a 10% increase over your parse. You really think DRG doesn't need a DPS buff?

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Originally Posted by Verus

As far as monk, drg is much closer in dps that people think. Saying they are separated by a 40-50 dps gap is simply inaccurate is all I am saying.

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You are more than incorrect here, as proven by the videos above.

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Originally Posted by Verus

Buffs unnecessary.

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You fail to see, yet again, how dragoons are in dire need of buffs. You're only seeing one end of the stick: that dragoons are on par with other melee classes in terms of raw dps. They might actually be on par if you include the 6-7% damage you give to your bard but all in all, a monk or ninja will still outshine you because of their utility.
Like whiskeybravo has graciously explained, dragoons have nothing to offer besides the piercing debuff. The only plausible solution, for people to actually consider bringing dragoons to their raid, is if they get a potency buff high enough to compensate for their lack of utility. It's either that or get a massive overhaul and give them utility that would let you consider bringing a dragoon over a monk or ninja.

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

I think something as simple as increased duration of HT (to allow another Full Thrust combo in) before having to re-apply, along with our Slow attack being moved to OGCD, would do the trick.

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i feel like increasing their damage to match nin/mnk and increasing their mdef/survivability to match is a good first step, but probably not really enough. if the dps is homogenized, then what drg has to stand out is being the best at melee aoe and slightly better than nin at burst. seeing as how SE will most likely not add a brand new skill, they'd probably have to do something gimmicky to add a good reason to take a drg over nin/mnk utility. it'd probably be something dumb like adding 5% str/int down to jump/spineshatter with 5s-10s duration lol

the other idea would be to make their total contributed damage (read:disembowel dps increase+self dps) higher than both nin/mnk, but i think that'd just be a bad game design choice. groups would progress with utility based dps classes (read: double monk) and switch out appropriately when they meet a dps wall. and when they get the content on farm and speed clears become realistic, bringing a drg for faster dps vs unneeded utility would be a no brainer

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

Well, here's what you ask for:

Monk doing 517 in iLvl 110 (neither buff food nor party buff)
Monk doing 490-500 DPS
Ninja doing 520 DPS in iLvl 110 (watch the DPS meter for the first 20 seconds, he's near the 600 mark, so burst isn't like worlds apart)

You said that you pushed 500+ DPS prior to Shiva bracelet and crafted gear and without spending any poetics ... but you merely showed like 465 ... compared to MNK/NIN we are seeing a difference of more than 50 DPS, which is more than a 10% increase over your parse. You really think DRG doesn't need a DPS buff?

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Yes in t8 factoring in goads on top of trick attack with selene and I was able to reach 500. From the videos posted, I agree that a dps increase on drg would be nice, however if drg is buffed to overcompensate for lack of utility as other have said then in certain cases it would make things difficult in regards to threat issues. If drg could sustain higher dps than monk in a long drawn out fight initial burst would easily have to reach 1k unless the class is completely reworked. Yes I realize there is a disparity in dps but it has to be looked at closely.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

seeing as how SE will most likely not add a brand new skill, they'd probably have to do something gimmicky to add a good reason to take a drg over nin/mnk utility.

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What i would like to see would be a second effect applied to disembowel for their utility, similar to Dragon Kick and Dancing Edge/Storms Eye.
DK lowers INT and DE/SE lowers healing received (admittedly useless in PVE though), so it feels kinda weird that disembowel is the only one that doesnt have something like this.

If i could dream it would be a damage reduce -5% debuff similar to storms path, which would do a lot to make DRG wanted in raid groups, even if their dps wouldnt change much. I mean from a flavor perspective they are the tanky melee so it would fit if they would do something defensively for the group imo.