I just wanted to point out a double standard...

those that monitor the performance make it so that for them is a NEED to check who is doing what so that they dont have to ask themselves IF their level of play is good, they seek for the culprit to put him down and caress their ego...which is a non sense..the idea to have it is good BUT people arent mature enough (for the majority of them) to actually use such tool with decorum.

People forgot what ti is to work in group, people join a party to be solo in there and only them matters most arent capable to see the great picture and udnerstand that no matter what, you all will have a good day, a bad day that some are slower, some faster, the power of a group is to actually be able to compensate the weakness to win and not tool for this is needed, the only tool you need is a piece of brain, which most lack when they enter this game *lol*

Mei

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Originally Posted by Sadana

As mentioned earlier, saying any player sucks/using abusive language can lead to a GM report; saying that player X may need to work on learning their skills is okay (constructive criticism); using a parser to tell a dps that they aren't good enough can lead to a ban. It doesn't even matter if you said it in a nice way; that program is against ToS. Period.

Part of the problem is when you have an ilvl 70 dps and an ilvl 100 dps in the party. Using a parser to determine whose dps is too low really won't work here. The guy in DL is gonna be shat upon for no other reason (probably) than he is in the process of upgrading his gear.

Those who suggest we have parsers available to improve our dps output... you do realize that many of those who have weak dps and good gear haven't even taken the time to learn their skills? What makes you think they will understand a parser much less take the time to actually look at it?

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- We're saying that using a parser shouldn't be against the ToS.

- Players who understand the core game mechanics and stats will take item level into account.

- The people who have taken the time to learn their rotation will be the ones that will find a DPS meter useful. And even those still learning, as they can use it to determine if their rotation is optimal or not by giving them a way to measure it's output. So it technically could HELP them learn.

Don't be against a parser, just because you believe that a certain amount of people don't understand how to play the game. That's kind of belittling the player base, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Felis

It would show you how many dmg you did to work on your rotation, like every other inofficial parsers. Or exist already parsers that show how many AoE you dodged?
What you mean is working on the tactic and mechanic, where you don't need a parser for it, only knowledge and communication.

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Well. What I mean is that there's no fights where you can just sit on the boss 100%, never having to move out of an AOE, change targets to DPS an add, etc. A target dummy doesn't have the added stress of having to deal with these mechanics.

A dummy's a great way to see if your rotation is optimal. However, when you're actually doing a boss, you'll have added stress to stay alive by avoiding AOEs, etc. This can make you have errors with your rotation, which lowers your DPS.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

You seem to assume that people who are skilled and pay attention to numbers are 100% bad people who only do it to be elite.

Some nice people just like playing well and helping other people play. Not everyone is a horrible person who only cares about their e-peen.

Having a high DPS output does not automatically make you an elitist.

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Exactly. I, personally, have ran into a s surprising amount of elitists that where super rude, but never once actually talked about my damage output. We'll have elitists regardless of whether there's an in-game meter or not.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

those that monitor the performance make it so that for them is a NEED to check who is doing what so that they dont have to ask themselves IF their level of play is good, they seek for the culprit to put him down and caress their ego...which is a non sense..the idea to have it is good BUT people arent mature enough (for the majority of them) to actually use such tool with decorum.

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You seem to assume that people who are skilled and pay attention to numbers are 100% bad people who only do it to be elite.

Some nice people just like playing well and helping other people play. Not everyone is a horrible person who only cares about their e-peen.

Having a high DPS output does not automatically make you an elitist.

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Originally Posted by Althea

- We're saying that using a parser shouldn't be against the ToS.

- Players who understand the core game mechanics and stats will take item level into account.

- The people who have taken the time to learn their rotation will be the ones that will find a DPS meter useful. And even those still learning, as they can use it to determine if their rotation is optimal or not by giving them a way to measure it's output. So it technically could HELP them learn.

Don't be against a parser, just because you believe that a certain amount of people don't understand how to play the game. That's kind of belittling the player base, anyway.

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But isn't this exactly what SE is thinking? :O

They don't want to add a parser because of the potential for abuse... or more specifically, using it against others.
I personally don't mind some sort of parser that gives hard numbers. I welcome suggestions and always try to improve. I do not, however, put up with any trash talking (along the lines of "Just uninstall the game, you suck.")

I would love to believe the entire player base is capable of figuring things out but it is not unusual for me to see things such as "What is enmity?" and "There's job quests?" from level 50s. ><'

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Originally Posted by Sadana

But isn't this exactly what SE is thinking? :O

They don't want to add a parser because of the potential for abuse... or more specifically, using it against others.
I personally don't mind some sort of parser that gives hard numbers. I welcome suggestions and always try to improve. I do not, however, put up with any trash talking (along the lines of "Just uninstall the game, you suck.")

I would love to believe the entire player base is capable of figuring things out but it is not unusual for me to see things such as "What is enmity?" and "There's job quests?" from level 50s. ><'

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I understand their concerns with abuse. And I do certainly believe there will be a few instances of it involving actual DPS numbers. But it's probably going to be from the people who are already elitists, or trolly. In which case it wouldn't really change anything, just the subject matter; either way it'd still be abuse.

However, I feel like the positives outweigh the negatives. People would have a tangible value to work with to improve their own DPS, and give raid leaders an easier way to measure people's performance, so they could make group composition optimizations, etc.

I'm the guild master, and raid lead of my group on another game, and I can tell you - having a DPS meter is literally invaluable to keeping my group optimal. If I can tell somebody's under performing with their current gear, I can point them in the right direction to improve it. This literally only matters because the fights in that game, and in FFXIV, both have DPS requirements.

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Originally Posted by Bluevann

There is quite a difference between a healer who can't keep the tank alive and a DPS who takes two minutes longer to win a fight. One does not bring the party to the victory. The other does, but may take a little extra of your precious time...

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The rest of your post I agree with, but lets look at some examples where you don't have those 2 extra minutes (or 30s, or 10s).

T1: ADS has an enrage (although has anyone ever actually seen it?), have to deal enough damage so that damage stacks don't get too high/have to kill cad splits at similar times
T2: The entire turn has an enrage, even if its one that you can heal through.
T4: 60 seconds to kill a wave of mobs before the next wave drops.
T5: 13-minute encounter enrage, conflags, snakes, dreadknights.
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T6: Not killing center bulbs fast enough can disrupt the fight, killing hornets before they go postal, final phase burn strategy, final phase superslug strategy.
T7: 11-minute boss enrage, soft enrage on heavy damage from adds
T8: 11-minute boss enrage, skipping phases through high dps can be extremely beneficial
T9: 13-minute boss enrage, killing both sets of golems in time for megaflare, only having 2 ghosts during heavensfall phase.

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Originally Posted by Bluevann

There is quite a difference between a healer who can't keep the tank alive and a DPS who takes two minutes longer to win a fight. One does not bring the party to the victory. The other does, but may take a little extra of your precious time.

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What if that extra "2 minutes" is what causes the party to wipe because the WHM (even if at the top of their game) can not heal for that long?

I have been bitched out and called a crap WHM because the DPS are dragging the fight out so long I can not maintain MP to heal everyone.
I have also been yelled at for calling vote abandon on Copperbell (Hard) because the boss was at 30-40% HP when we ran out of stones. After trying it 3 times. The other 3 people could not get a clue they were seriously under geared and would not hear anything I had to say about it. Needless to say I ate the 30 min.

Not to mention doing 30 runs of Titan (Hard) in one weekend (all failing at the heart) I can now tell whiten 30 seconds of the fight starting if the DPS is up to snuff to kill the heart.

So yeah. There is more weight on the DPS to clear content than there is on the tank and healer. Are the tank and healer off the hook? No. But DPS matters more.

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Originally Posted by necrosis

What if that extra "2 minutes" is what causes the party to wipe because the WHM (even if at the top of their game) can not heal for that long?

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Not to mention forcing the rest of the group to pick up the slack for that person, ie doing more work. The other thing people forget is that, yes, you can notice when DPS is slow as a group. But when you have 2-4 DD, and they all look like they're doing everything right, how do you know which one is holding you back? People say enmity, but that's already known to be bunk due to enmity reducing abilities. I mean, hell, the good DPS could be using Quelling and have less enmity than the "bad" DPS and would then get called out for being the one playing poorly.

So, yes, it is somewhat of a double standard. But people don't actually care about that, they only care that someone might get called out and "harassed" which happens anyways.

I'm so tired of folks crying about being "harassed". Raiding content is not Hello Kitty. If you play well you don't get called out on it. The difference between 200 dps and 475 dps is HUGE. That person needs to be told they have to improve. The difference between 450 dps and 475 dps is negligible on all but the hardest progression content, and no pugs are on the bleeding edge of progression where that kind of difference matters. In those cases you are in a progression guild and you relinquished your "right" to complain about "harassment".

This care bear attitude for the rest of the pug content that some players have needs to be kept in check. Forcing other players to waste their time because you are afraid to tell someone they are holding the group back is just much harassment if not more. I agree that players should be kind to one another, but that doesn't mean we should pretend that 200 dps when the average is ~400 should be perfectly acceptable.

I never get this neither. You have to remember there are twice as many DPS to tank/healer so to single out the ones doing bad is relatively harder to see. Sure you can say dps is slow, we're moving phases too slow but Who? Who is doing low dps? Sometimes you can't afford that extra 10/30 seconds or 2 minutes. For example, if DPS was higher in t9, you would be able to do 4 or 5 stardust instead of 6 which makes the golem weaker than they are. Then you have to DPS 3 30k HP golem in 65 seconds then another set of those in same 65 seconds. If someone was doing 100 dps, it means the other DPS has to deal 428 DPS EACH. Tell me how that is fair to the 3 people that have to carry the one person doing bad.