Atma Fate System Broken

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Originally Posted by Castillan

That's precisely why it's broken. It's not an even/fair system. It's a system that blesses some, and shuns others, and for no other reason than "you're just unlucky". It's not even progression for all. It's just whether or not your were fortunate enough to get it, or you've gotten the raw end of the statistical deal.

Mind you, being a computer RNG, I just coded up a worst-losing-streak simulator on my Linux box, and simulated 1 billion fates

At a 2% drop rate (0.02) => 835 was the longest losing streak simulated by the Linux RNG
At a 1% drop rate (0.01) => 1701 was the longest losing (no drop) streak simulated

Even though statistically there's a chance you'll never ever get a single stone, the computer based RNG is basically suggesting that worst chance you can go for up to 17/drop_rate fates before getting a drop.

Question is, do YOU think it's fair that someone can be lumped with doing 1700 fates for a stone, while others are skipping along with having only done 20-50 fates before getting theirs? I guess that's a matter of perspective. If you were one of the latter lucky ones, of course you're going to say that there's nothing wrong with it. Try to imagine the person who's done 1700 fates for nought though...

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This is just such an insane way to discuss RNG. Is it fair because someone can get an Atma on their first try? We've had this system of drops in countless MMOs and never have I seen such howling about it. This is just such a disingenuous way of speaking about it, most attempts will be closer to 200 and that's what most people are going to deal with. Yeah sure maybe someone is getting them all on their first try, maybe someone else is finishing up their last Atma with their 20412nd FATE. Those however are such extreme examples that they server no purpose except to turn conversation into dueling hyperbole.

Yes, it is wrong to look at the extremes lets look closer to reality. There are many people who finished in 12 hours, and many people who have spent 12 hours and havent gotten one atma yet. This is ok? Their effort dosent mater and its perfectly ok because "countless MMO's" have done something similar? Because we should all drink the kool-aid and stop complaining and be happy when you know there are people who didnt have to try. That is very possible you could spend another 12 hours mindlessly grinding and get nothing. Becuse thats not an extreme thats where I am right now.

"The time sink should be the same for everyone"

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Originally Posted by Keldare

Because we should all drink the kool-aid and stop complaining and be happy when you know there are people who didnt have to try. That is very possible you could spend another 12 hours mindlessly grinding and get nothing. Becuse thats not an extreme thats where I am right now.

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This is exactly why I can't agree with any of you guys. Most of your problem is literally with RNG itself. You get bitter (and this is an actual adjective to describe your behavior, not an attack, people should look up the definition) that someone else got something 'undeservedly' so the entire system has to be changed simply because someone had more luck than you. You're counting on your fingers the amount of times you heard in your FC, Shout, or on the forums that someone stated they got everything in 12 hours, yet you fail to accept those are all outliers. It's not happening all the time. Getting your Atma grind done in 12 hours is an extremely lucky circumstance! Your complaint is you had to farm 12 hours for something has a second leg which is 60+ hours certainly the first leg isn't meant to be much shorter.

12 Hours isn't a timesink, it's casual play. You just have unrealistic expectations. 12 hours depending on how fast you're farming is really not a long amount of time in regards to this grind.

quiters, gross.

I will always place the Mission first,
I will never accept defeat.
I Will Never Quit.

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Originally Posted by Worm

This is just such an insane way to discuss RNG.

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Why is it insane to determine what the (typical) worst case scenario is, and then ask oneself, "Is this what we really intend with our system"? I'm a software engineer. I write code for a living. One of the things we're always doing, ALWAYS, is to look at the worst case scenario and determine if that is fair and reasonable and tolerable by the consumers of the software we make, and if it's not, then we find a better solution.

It's a mindset that I've worked with all my working life. Basically it boils down to this. SOMEONE WILL find a way to exercise the worst possible scenario, whether intentionally or accidentally, and if they do that, what would they see, and can we prevent that, either by putting artificial limits in place, or recoding the algorithm to something more adaptable.

This is the essence of any good software design. Understand where your limits are, and address them.

So. Im at 24 hours worth of attempt time at this animus quest and I. Total I have 3 atma. Im at this point im certain im going to exceed whatever you deem a "non casual" grind. Please enlighten me how many more hours do I need to grind before my disdain is justified?

I've noticed as well that Outer La Noscea took a lot longer for me to get my atma than any other zone. In second thought Western La Noscea is taking awhile too. I think just La Noscea in general sucks for atma. :/

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Originally Posted by Castillan

Why is it insane to determine what the (typical) worst case scenario is, and then ask oneself, "Is this what we really intend with our system"? I'm a software engineer. I write code for a living. One of the things we're always doing, ALWAYS, is to look at the worst case scenario and determine if that is fair and reasonable and tolerable by the consumers of the software we make, and if it's not, then we find a better solution.

It's a mindset that I've worked with all my working life. Basically it boils down to this. SOMEONE WILL find a way to exercise the worst possible scenario, whether intentionally or accidentally, and if they do that, what would they see, and can we prevent that, either by putting artificial limits in place, or recoding the algorithm to something more adaptable.

This is the essence of any good software design. Understand where your limits are, and address them.

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To me this sounds perfectly sensible. The current system is only ideal if SE set out to create a system that would take X hours to complete on average while allowing for completion times to be as low as 0.1X and as high as 10X. Perhaps that is exactly the result they wanted, however, several players/ customers are saying that while they think X is a reasonable amount of time for this quest to take, 10X is not, especially when some players are going to get it done in 0.1X.

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Originally Posted by Woggers

I've noticed as well that Outer La Noscea took a lot longer for me to get my atma than any other zone. In second thought Western La Noscea is taking awhile too. I think just La Noscea in general sucks for atma. :/

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East shroud, Lower & Outer La Noscea sucked the most for me. Split my hours but all up took 6+ hrs each for those three. The other areas were pretty okay in comparison ^^

I got three in like two hours
Then i farmed for 7 hours, still three
The day after, 3 hrs, three
A week (i got lazy), farmed for two hrs each, looks up my bag, three

I think the other 9 is laughing at me somewhere