Dear Healers who don't DPS

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

Wall to wall pulls will make it so that healers will almost never get a chance to DPS.

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I can link umpteen logs where I'm managing to push very significant DPS on some of the nastier pulls these dungeons have to offer (EG 6K DPS on Ala Mhigo double gorilla packs + dogs).

Not all healers can stomach throwing out holys on a pull like that, but to say that it doesn't give us the opportunity is a fallacy.

I'd also add that if you're not saving time with large pulls, your group simply isn't aoeing hard enough. The run linked above took 15 minutes total, I contributed over 20% of the total damage done despite some brutal pulls and very skilled DPS. On a more typical pug run, I can contribute 30%+ and again, have the logs to back that up.

In short, big pulls doesn't necessarily require you to sacrifice healer DPS. It's still very dooable and mightily effective. Until the other thread throws a decent SCH log at me, I'm firmly of the stance that WHM is the undisputed champ in these situations though and that's something that does need to be kept in mind.

It's also worth reminding that this sort of damage isn't something you should expect from your healer. Rather it's something your healer can choose to aspire to and aim for.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

My post was directed at the OP, but Bourne_Endeavor brought up the point of "always casting" and is something that shows that he/she has probably never mained a healer.

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Hi, I main a healer, and "always be casting" is a good ideal to aim for. I don't always hit it. Sometimes that's due to circumstances out of my control (this go sideways and MP becomes an issue), and sometimes it's just that my skill level isn't as high as some other healers.

But it's still a good idea and I try to do it. In a typical run, there is little to no reason to be idle for any significant length of time.

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A healer's duty is to keep everyone alive.

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Nobody is saying otherwise.

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Their overall DPS is insignificant most of the time unless you have dual healers for the current end game content (it's actually better to not have 2 healers and have 1 dedicated healer due to DPS checks, but 2 healers provide more room for error). Your uptime for DPS is only maybe enough for a cast maybe every ten seconds provided your rotation timing does not match the attack timing of the enemy (swiftcast can help a little) combined with the big wall to wall pulls.

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Define "insignificant". If it takes you 10 minutes of combat time to kill everything, adding 10% group DPS in a dungeon (which is a very achievable target, especially for WHM) will take nearly a minute off. That doesn't seem insignificant to me.

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Wall to wall pulls will make it so that healers will almost never get a chance to DPS. They are focused on keeping the tank alive and have to watch the spikes from random crits or failure to dodge AoEs. The more enemies there are, the more likely it will happen.

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If you are actually using every cast to keep people alive because of incoming damage, that's fine. The vast majority of people in this thread are simply saying "DPS instead of doing nothing/overhealing". You can cancel a cast and switch to a heal very quickly if someone decides to stand in something, especially with how many oGCD heals are available at high level.

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As long as you are doing wall to wall pulls, you are overpulling and not giving the healer a chance to DPS and it will force them to pay more attention to your HP than outputting damage.

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Overpulling means pulling too much. If the group can handle that many mobs, it's not overpulling. Last night I got this DRK who did big pulls (after asking if we wanted them, which is always a nice gesture) and was well nigh invulnerable. Seriously, it felt like I was healing Superman, he was taking so little damage for the number of mobs. Gear and cooldown usage matter a lot here, but that guy was in no way overpulling.

When I get someone like that, I count my blessings and blow up everything in sight. I mean, he's playing well enough to give me the openings to contribute some DPS. The least I can do is take them.

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If you want a healer to DPS, stop doing wall to wall pulls so they can focus on something other than the tank's HP or the idiot DPS that runs ahead and pulls in more mobs.

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And again, if people are standing in bad, your DPS window will shrink or close. Everyone agrees with that. If DPS run ahead like idiots and pull, just let them die unless the tank decides to intervene. They'll learn.

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Mitigation alone is not enough when you are overpulling because the healer has to spend most of the time casting heals to keep you from dying. The most you save from a competent team is a few seconds unless you have excellent AoE.

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In most of the experts, one pack hits for so little damage that on a geared tank, Largess Regen can heal it. Two packs shouldn't require spam healing unless you or the tank is doing something wrong. It can definitely get sketchier after that depending on gear, but letting the DPS hit 6 things at once with AoE instead of 3 is a big boost (and more so when you can Holy spam).

Honestly, people need to stop trying to make this about something it's not. Nobody expects you to deal with people constantly eating all avoidable damage and still put up amazing DPS. It's not happening. The expectation is that you won't twiddle your thumbs and will contribute as opportunity allows.

That's the same expectation placed on every other role.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

My post was directed at the OP, but Bourne_Endeavor brought up the point of "always casting" and is something that shows that he/she has probably never mained a healer. A healer's duty is to keep everyone alive. Their overall DPS is insignificant most of the time unless you have dual healers for the current end game content (it's actually better to not have 2 healers and have 1 dedicated healer due to DPS checks, but 2 healers provide more room for error). Your uptime for DPS is only maybe enough for a cast maybe every ten seconds provided your rotation timing does not match the attack timing of the enemy (swiftcast can help a little) combined with the big wall to wall pulls.

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I have cleared Extreme Primals and Savage floors on healer. Have you? Likewise, I frequently play healer in dungeons and have no issues healing and DPSing regardless of the pull size. The "Always Be Casting" motto references you doing something, be it spam healing due to a mega pull or DPSing. Honestly, the fact you immediately deflect the discussion to whether I "main" healer for easy mode dungeons only shows you have no argument and just don't like people disagreeing with your biased perception of healing.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

Wall to wall pulls will make it so that healers will almost never get a chance to DPS. They are focused on keeping the tank alive and have to watch the spikes from random crits or failure to dodge AoEs. The more enemies there are, the more likely it will happen. As long as you are doing wall to wall pulls, you are overpulling and not giving the healer a chance to DPS and it will force them to pay more attention to your HP than outputting damage. If you want a healer to DPS, stop doing wall to wall pulls so they can focus on something other than the tank's HP or the idiot DPS that runs ahead and pulls in more mobs. Mitigation alone is not enough when you are overpulling because the healer has to spend most of the time casting heals to keep you from dying. The most you save from a competent team is a few seconds unless you have excellent AoE.

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Stop projecting and please actually read the responses people have made. Nowhere has anyone defended tanks or DPS standing in avoidable damage nor have we insisted healers must DPS above all else. If you bothered to read my original post-- the one you said was so toxic-- you would have seen I never claimed healers need to DPS through mass pulls but need to be doing something. If they can only manage Cure spam, they're still following the ABCs. You seem to be under some silly impression tanks who pull the room have no idea what they're doing. Standing in AoEs and mass pulling are mutual exclusive things.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

Most of the time, you don't and the finishing time is roughly about the same. From my experience, I can finish a lvl 70 clear in roughly the same time as mass pulls, about 20 min average. If you have great AoEs, then it is going to be shorter for mass pulls since it is worth sacrificing healer DPS in exchange for the DPS class being able to AoE.

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Really? Care to explain why my average runs tend to be 10-15 minutes? I've done some of the 3.x dungeons in under nine minutes when they were still relevant. Once again, you are objectively wrong. Large pulls and a "competent team" overall speeds up the process dramatically. That's why its so ubiquitous these days.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Really? Care to explain why my average runs tend to be 10-15 minutes? I've done some of the 3.x dungeons in under nine minutes when they were still relevant. Once again, you are objectively wrong. Large pulls and a "competent team" overall speeds up the process dramatically. That's why its so ubiquitous these days.

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I DPS when I heal and I average about 15 min a run (not the best dungeon dps by any means, but am SCH). Then when I tank and no healer dps, the runs take on average 20+ min.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I DPS when I heal and I average about 15 min a run (not the best dungeon dps by any means, but am SCH). Then when I tank and no healer dps, the runs take on average 20+ min.

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U cant just take the healer not dpsing for consideration. U have to take the other dps and party make up. If wanna have a real comparison do 2 of the same dungeon with the same ppl, one with healer dps and another with healer not dps. Same ppl, same gear, same party make up and then tell the difference

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

U cant just take the healer not dpsing for consideration. U have to take the other dps and party make up. If wanna have a real comparison do 2 of the same dungeon with the same ppl, one with healer dps and another with healer not dps. Same ppl, same gear, same party make up and then tell the difference

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Have to agree with this, you can't just take two completely different parties and assume the healer DPS alone made the difference.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Have to agree with this, you can't just take two completely different parties and assume the healer DPS alone made the difference.

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Not necessarily true actually...if you have a special faerie that tells you the average damage etc...cough then you can easily see if the DPS are doing around the same amount as the previous run etc. So you don't necessarily need to run with the exact same people. The combination of DPS can be the close to the same even with different people and if you have that special faerie you can see the % contribution.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Have to agree with this, you can't just take two completely different parties and assume the healer DPS alone made the difference.

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Fortunately, I have an example where the only change in party comp was the tank. The difference? Over fifteen minutes because one tank pulled everything while the other did one pack at a time. While not a healer DPS example, it works to show you aren't just saving 1-2 minutes but several.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Not necessarily true actually...if you have a special faerie that tells you the average damage etc...cough then you can easily see if the DPS are doing around the same amount as the previous run etc. So you don't necessarily need to run with the exact same people. The combination of DPS can be the close to the same even with different people and if you have that special faerie you can see the % contribution.

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Yes, but we don't know if this person has that special fairy ( ;D ) what the comps were, etc. A blanket statement of "well in one run I DPSed and in the other run I didn't so it was the healer DPS that made the difference" tells us basically nothing. Certainly SOME of the time saved was because of healer DPS, but how MUCH of it?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Fortunately, I have an example where the only change in party comp was the tank. The difference? Over fifteen minutes because one tank pulled everything while the other did one pack at a time. While not a healer DPS example, it works to show you aren't just saving 1-2 minutes but several.

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This is really dependent on comp in my experience. If you have 2 DPS with terrible AoE then you're probably actually losing time as opposed to saving it by making big pulls.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

This is really dependent on comp in my experience. If you have 2 DPS with terrible AoE then you're probably actually losing time as opposed to saving it by making big pulls.

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While this is an issue in leveling content, every class 60+ has potent AOE moves.