Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

It kinda feels like they’re working in a direction where the holy trinity is optional (in the majority of content). You can already clear lots of normal content without a healer due to the fact that tanks have huge healing abilities and cds, plus a number of dps roles have party wide aoe healing abilities.

They don’t seem capable of creating a healing role that is inbetween “super stressful - I cant handle the incoming damage, and I’m getting toxicity because people are dying” (which is wow M+) and “I’m barely doing any healing at all, and my dps rotation is one button boredom, so I might as well play dps and chuck out and aoe heal occasionally”.

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I never really see anyone being toxic to the healer though. If people die, its usually the tank that gets blamed for pulling too big, even though big pulls are supposed to be the norm.

And the only reason big pulls are the norm is because that's how much it takes for the game to actually have to use your cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

And the only reason big pulls are the norm is because that's how much it takes for the game to actually have to use your cooldowns.

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At this point they are double downing on wall to wall pulls and grandiose looking AoEs in 8/24 man content. It feels like the anime fighter of MMOs, lol.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

I'm only playing single-players/ co-ops lately, I'm looking for another MMO and I'm ready to jump ship any time and I'm netflixing and chill while playing healer - rare is it is nowadays.
Sounds like I'm doing everything right c:

But perhaps you need to chill a bit if this thread irks you so much that you have to come in and tell everyone that they need to chill? Should we kiss you on the forehead? I'd even lift our pint-sized healers up to reach it.

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The former most profitable Final Fantasy game, Final Fantasy XI, has a 14 day trial, is a pain in the ass to install and setup, but is pretty fun when you get it working. I hear Bahamut is a good server to start out on too.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

All the more reason to not play healer anymore. If you still play healer then you're part of the problem at this point. Things will only change when nobody plays healer anymore. If you don't want to spend your free time mashing 1 button then don't. They know you don't want to, they don't care because you're playing it anyway.

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Except many of us think it's fine and have no problem with it. I love being a healer right now. And I press far, far, far more than one button :)

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Except many of us think it's fine and have no problem with it. I love being a healer right now. And I press far, far, far more than one button :)

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Do you actually do Savage on healers?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Do you actually do Savage on healers?

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Don't even need to do Savage.
Duty Finder Queue times have gotten worse due to lack of healers so things clearly aren't fine with healers, despite what people want to believe about the role. Sure, Savage PFs fill quickly with healers, that's the only content that healing can even be remotely entertaining in but the other 99% of content might as well not exist for healers at all.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Don't even need to do Savage.
Duty Finder Queue times have gotten worse due to lack of healers so things clearly aren't fine with healers, despite what people want to believe about the role. Sure, Savage PFs fill quickly with healers, that's the only content that healing can even be remotely entertaining in but the other 99% of content mind as well not exist for healers at all.

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It's the only content I still play on healer. Everything else? Nah. I'd rather sit in a queue for 40min and do something lese until it pops than queue on healer. And I think a lot of veteran healers went the same route. They're still playing healer but only for their static/ PF and switch to something fun once done with raiding. Even some of my friends that are firmly in the very casual camp started doing it because they felt they were never really needed and just on "in case something bad happens" standby so they play dps in DF now.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Don't even need to do Savage.
Duty Finder Queue times have gotten worse due to lack of healers so things clearly aren't fine with healers, despite what people want to believe about the role. Sure, Savage PFs fill quickly with healers, that's the only content that healing can even be remotely entertaining in but the other 99% of content mind as well not exist for healers at all.

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I completely agree, I just always find myself wonder when someone says "tons of people love it, i'm having a blast" if they actually do any of the harder content on these jobs, because comments like "i hit more than 1 button" really just says to me "I have no clue how to play healers correctly in this game." Even in Savage a majority of what we hit is literally 1 button, I did a P1S reclear for gear recently where 80% of my casts were 3 buttons, Broil, Bio and Energy Drain - and this wasn't some highly optimized static either, it was a PF group of randoms. I really, REALLY doubt that anyone who actually plays these jobs correctly would want to defend the garbage design of getting better meaning you spam your 1 key more. Everyone I know, casual or "hardcore" says that healers are the low point of job design within XIV at the moment. Even my friends who raid solely on healers say that the current design is boring and healers need more. Where are these "tons of people" in game? If tons of people loved it, it wouldn't be instant queue anytime you do roulettes. People should be clamouring to play healers since they're a ton of fun, right?

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Except many of us think it's fine and have no problem with it. I love being a healer right now. And I press far, far, far more than one button :)

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People who don't main healers most often have uninformed opinions which should be disregarded when SE is making vital decisions about healer roles. The reason is simple. This type of player cannot clear content with min item level, the way the devs have designed the encounter to be cleared when new. If you find yourself pressing far more buttons than one, your nuke, then you are inevitably going to run into enrage. The content is not designed for healers to play silly and be pressing healing GCDs willy-nilly. You cannot clear content, you cannot make progress playing a healer like that.

Eh, I've been having a pretty good time playing AST lately for my roulettes and things, but that is after not playing a healer at all for over a year. It's probably just the change of pace right now that is keeping me engaged, although I don't know if it is the tank or me but some of these dungeon pulls I have to really run through my abilities to keep them alive.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Eh, I've been having a pretty good time playing AST lately for my roulettes and things, but that is after not playing a healer at all for over a year. It's probably just the change of pace right now that is keeping me engaged, although I don't know if it is the tank or me but some of these dungeon pulls I have to really run through my abilities to keep them alive.

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That's most likely the Tank, assuming you're properly geared yourself.
I've had runs with all kinds of Tanks. I've had runs where Kardia alone was able to keep the Tank alive with me just mindlessly throwing out Addersgal for resources and other times I'm being bleed drier than the Sahara.
I've had WAR tanks die despite Recit+Excog, Whispering Dawn, Sacred Soil and Aetherpact all going and I've had DRK Tanks that had a hard time getting below 50%.
The difference in player skill+gear can really make healing go either way.

I don't do raids, so...

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

I completely agree, I just always find myself wonder when someone says "tons of people love it, i'm having a blast" if they actually do any of the harder content on these jobs, because comments like "i hit more than 1 button" really just says to me "I have no clue how to play healers correctly in this game." Even in Savage a majority of what we hit is literally 1 button, I did a P1S reclear for gear recently where 80% of my casts were 3 buttons, Broil, Bio and Energy Drain - and this wasn't some highly optimized static either, it was a PF group of randoms. I really, REALLY doubt that anyone who actually plays these jobs correctly would want to defend the garbage design of getting better meaning you spam your 1 key more. Everyone I know, casual or "hardcore" says that healers are the low point of job design within XIV at the moment. Even my friends who raid solely on healers say that the current design is boring and healers need more. Where are these "tons of people" in game? If tons of people loved it, it wouldn't be instant queue anytime you do roulettes. People should be clamouring to play healers since they're a ton of fun, right?

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It's mean, it's often unproductive and results in derailing the whole conversation when it comes up, and it flirts with rulebreaking to talk about it anyway so I don't post about it in forum arguments. Yes yes I know there are a lot of factors that contribute to ~things~, so going into specifics never helps these sorts of threads.

But on my own, outside of forum posting? I have a game I play where I see someone Really Enjoying How Fun And Well Designed Healers In The FF14 Greatest Of All Healer Design MMOs. I look at their main character's name, and play "spot the blank Savage and guess what the Aglaia color is", in a special place that doesn't exist, and let me tell you I've yet to be wrong.

Take that information however you will.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Except many of us think it's fine and have no problem with it. I love being a healer right now. And I press far, far, far more than one button :)

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That’s great. I’m happy for you and those many of you—however many they actually amount for…— for truly enjoying the gameplay. These folks in here? Clearly don’t feel the same.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

It's the only content I still play on healer. Everything else? Nah. I'd rather sit in a queue for 40min and do something lese until it pops than queue on healer. And I think a lot of veteran healers went the same route. They're still playing healer but only for their static/ PF and switch to something fun once done with raiding. Even some of my friends that are firmly in the very casual camp started doing it because they felt they were never really needed and just on "in case something bad happens" standby so they play dps in DF now.

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I’d very much do the same.. except I couldn’t bring myself to. It’s a bit of a weird kind of paradox: when you love the role so much you just can’t move on without it despite all the glaring drawbacks. And then there’s this vague sense of bitterness when coming across (a) random healer who’s evidently had played the role for hundred of hours but is doing every prime example of utter, total bad healing practices. You know.. ”My favorite MMO role had been reduced to dust for these folks..???”-feel.

On top of that, I get burnt out real quick with any other roles. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I stopped having fun when my role became boring to play so I cancelled my sub and went back to ESO. That game is a hot mess but at least healing is engaging.

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I'm glad you can have fun with ESO's healing. I hate it.

Honestly at this point I think all MMOs and healing is just straight up dying. ESO? Drove me away before the... we'll call it talent changes and haven't gotten me back since. It doesn't help that the healer I want to play was still underclassed.

GW2? Same issues with balancing that made me leave the game over 6 years ago.

WoW? Even before the mess with Activision I couldn't go back (why oh why did you get rid of TOTEMS)

Here? I wish I came in during SB. I'd have had a ball. Actually, no. I change my mind. No I don't. If I played during SB I'd hate the game more than I do now.

Where else is there to go?

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

I'm glad you can have fun with ESO's healing. I hate it.

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Don't get me wrong here. I honestly hate how imbalanced ESO is in terms of their class/skill design, with some classes clearly favoring specific playstyles, nor I'm not a fan of their "smart" targeting either and trying to manually aim some skills has always been problematic but at least it gives me more to think about than FFXIV healers and I get the Druid Healer that FFXIV teased me with for years only to blue ball me in ShB with Glare mage.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Don't get me wrong here. I honestly hate how imbalanced ESO is in terms of their class/skill design, with some classes clearly favoring specific playstyles nor I'm not a fan of their "smart" targeting either and trying to manually aim some skills has always been problematic but at least it gives me more to think about than FFXIV healers and I get the Druid Healer that FFXIV teased me with for years only to blue ball me in ShB with Glare mage.

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Fair enough. Much like AST here I'm still waiting for them to commit to the HoT style of healing with NB healer. Especially since they can play with using your own health to do it. But noooooo. Eh. I beat that horse dead enough.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

and I get the Druid Healer that FFXIV teased me with for years only to blue ball me in ShB with Glare mage.

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/laughing but also crying

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Where else is there to go?

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I'd like to know this as well.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

and I get the Druid Healer that FFXIV teased me with for years only to blue ball me in ShB with Glare mage.

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It feels like healers in general have lost a lot of identity compared to other jobs. Scholar (Dot/dps healer) lost its identity to Summoner, to differentiate the two and to make them feel like 2 completely different jobs. White mage lost all of its druid theme and is now basically a Lilly/light themed job - which for me at least was such a drastic change aesthetically that I can‘t identify myself with anymore.
Astrologian lost all the skills that made it cool to begin with, like different cards giving different buffs and also the time magic to extend buffs, which made it engaging and you had at least another useful skill to use…

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Except many of us think it's fine and have no problem with it. I love being a healer right now. And I press far, far, far more than one button :)

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Wonderful. I'm glad you're enjoying playing healer and by all means continue to do so. However, that does not invalidate any previously aforementioned complaints, nor does that mean that nothing should be changed about their current state. And for those who share the sentiment that they need to change, it is in their best interest to just stop playing them. The devs have already heard our complaints and they're not changing anything. They know people want change but the devs don't care because those same people are still playing healer anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

That’s great. I’m happy for you and those many of you—however many they actually amount for…— for truly enjoying the gameplay. These folks in here? Clearly don’t feel the same.



I’d very much do the same.. except I couldn’t bring myself to. It’s a bit of a weird kind of paradox: when you love the role so much you just can’t move on without it despite all the glaring drawbacks. And then there’s this vague sense of bitterness when coming across (a) random healer who’s evidently had played the role for hundred of hours but is doing every prime example of utter, total bad healing practices. You know.. ”My favorite MMO role had been reduced to dust for these folks..???”-feel.

On top of that, I get burnt out real quick with any other roles. /shrug

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I feel the same actually.
At first I never wanted to be a healer, I didn't start out as one. I was an Affliction Warlock and a Shadow Priest but when I respec'd to Holy to sub for a static whose healer had just left and forgot to spec back to Shadow and it lead to me subbing a few more times and ultimately thinking that it's not worth to respec every time (because that was expensive ) and suddenly I was stuck on healer and enjoyed it to the point of maining it, of playing all healer specs and sometimes raiding in two different statics at once just so I could play another heal spec as well. That was over 15 years ago and I haven't dropped healer once since then. Not in a single MMO.

And every time I'm in content and see a really bad healer it hurts to know that my favourite role got butchered so these people can lick windows and eat crayons while getting a fast ticket through content.
I don't care if someone calls it elitism or arrogance - it just feels like a kick to the face. It's not even a vague sense of bitterness for me, it's outright salt. A gigantic mountain of salt. :p

Fortunately I enjoy BLM but there's always this feeling of something missing. I enjoy it, I really do but there's this underlying feeling of it being a rebound class.

You know why I'm here.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

You know why I'm here.

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Same time next... I dunno. Whenever?

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Where else is there to go?

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I spend more time in PSO2 than here, and even act more as a combat medic there than I do here (despite only having maybe 4 support abilities for healing, even as a TEC).
I've also gone back to Granado Espada, and I feel so fresh making frogfishes disappear again. It's been nice being able to play a game where I can feel viable while having fun.

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Originally Posted by Fukuro

It feels like healers in general have lost a lot of identity compared to other jobs. Scholar (Dot/dps healer) lost its identity to Summoner, to differentiate the two and to make them feel like 2 completely different jobs. White mage lost all of its druid theme and is now basically a Lilly/light themed job - which for me at least was such a drastic change aesthetically that I can‘t identify myself with anymore.
Astrologian lost all the skills that made it cool to begin with, like different cards giving different buffs and also the time magic to extend buffs, which made it engaging and you had at least another useful skill to use…

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Oh believe me, I hate the whole Holy Magic Aesthetic WHM has now. I understood Holy since that's the signature WHM spell but why strip it of its Elemental Roots in ShB just to give it a skill like Aqua Veil in EW, especially since the Water Magic Aspect of WHM was always the least explored aspect of the job that we'd been asking for years to be expanded upon. They remove Fluid Aura after YEARS of killing it slowly and then decide, "here's a water barrier".
Not only that but they went hard on the whole Lily theme as well. Holy looks like a Flower Blooming and Lilybell is literally a plant.

They obviously can't commit to what aesthetic they want for Healers, with the lone exception being that Healers just have to be in a Dress/Robe of some kind. I would kill for some Chainmail Armor that doesn't end in a Skirt tyvm.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Oh believe me, I hate the whole Holy Magic Aesthetic WHM has now. I understood Holy since that's the signature WHM spell but why strip it of its Elemental Roots in ShB just to give it a skill like Aqua Veil in EW, especially since the Water Magic Aspect of WHM was always the least explored aspect of the job that we'd been asking for years to be expanded upon. They remove Fluid Aura after YEARS of killing it slowly and then decide, "here's a water barrier".
Not only that but they went hard on the whole Lily theme as well. Holy looks like a Flower Blooming and Lilybell is literally a plant.

They obviously can't commit to what aesthetic they want for Healers, with the lone exception being that Healers just have to be in a Dress/Robe of some kind. I would kill for some Chainmail Armor that doesn't end in a Skirt tyvm.

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I'm pretty sure the whole "Holy" WHM spells came from the fact we were on the First Shard, surrounded by Light and since CNJ/WHM bases their spells off of the nature of the environment they're in it would make sense they'd pick up more light based attacks.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I'm pretty sure the whole "Holy" WHM spells came from the fact we were on the First Shard, surrounded by Light and since CNJ/WHM bases their spells off of the nature of the environment they're in it would make sense they'd pick up more light based attacks.

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I was asking more about Aqua Veil and the Flower motif being included. The Flower part I can kind of understand with the whole "I'll give you a beautiful Flower" thing with Meteion but it just feels like WHM's aesthetic design is all over the place.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I was asking more about Aqua Veil and the Flower motif being included. The Flower part I can kind of understand with the whole "I'll give you a beautiful Flower" thing with Meteion but it just feels like WHM's aesthetic design is all over the place.

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To be fair, people did want White Mage to get some nature-based skills back during Shadowbringers after noting our Earth spells were replaced for Light-spells, especially for water element-skills - which there was a severe lack of in our toolkit. This resulted in Aquaveil.

If you want to go indepth, a plant requires water, earth, air, and light to survive. This indirectly means we have all the tools necessary to make a flower bloom. You can treat the "Secret of the Lily" as a secret technique that combines all the elements a White Mage possesses to utilize a healing lily.

Liturgy of the Bell looks like a combination of water, earth, and air based on how the animation plays out, but you can also say it comprises of light too if it's based on the lily-system (and if the name is anything to give away).

For Light-based magic in particular, it seems that's part of A-Towa-Cant's repertoire of spells due White mages being more religious in their practices in their storyline (Holy, Benediction, Divine Benison, Tetragrammaton, Plenary Indulgence, and Confession all hint towards this idea towards a Divinity of sorts). The Holy spell was a result of A-Towa-Cant teaching us that through the soul crystal or something. Supposedly, our nature makes our affinity to Light-based/Divine-based magic stronger as we go through expansions, which resulted in us learning Glare, Dia, and eventually Afflatus Misery. So our version of White Mage comprises of Water, Earth, Air, and Light.

Though, my headcanon for White mage having light-based spells in Shadowbringers is due to being too attuned to the light. Since a White Mage's ability borrows elements from the surrounding area, we just naturally started using Light-based elements since that's the only abundant element remaining in Shadowbringers. We learn that depending on whether the element is Astral or Umbral, light magic can be more offensive in nature in creating flowing aether or stagnating aether. So now, not only do we have divine healing, we have debilitating light spells too.

In Endwalker, we got more access to the elements again, which resulted in other elements coming back. ... That being said though, I figure the upgrade path for Glare to Glare III was because the developers wanted to continue with 1 DPS skill path rather than give us a variety of spells.

A video was recommended on my feed recently of Dancing Plague Normal where the run was supposedly carried by healer.
What actually happened was the player (WHM) keeping a full up-time of Medica II. Meaning, they constantly reapply Medica II the very second it falls off. It was really hard to watch (I clicked off at 50s). :(

The Aggro thread makes me wish overhealing would still rip aggro from tanks. Though I am unsure if it's possible to code to make it work. It doesn't add much engagement to healer's gameplay but at least it's something the average DF healers have to be wary of.

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Originally Posted by einschwartz

A video was recommended on my feed recently of Dancing Plague Normal where the run was supposedly carried by healer.
What actually happened was the player (WHM) keeping a full up-time of Medica II. Meaning, they constantly reapply Medica II the very second it falls off. It was really hard to watch (I clicked off at 50s). :(

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One thing I really hate about healer design is that this works. I know it's unpopular opinion and many healers obsess over deleting all oGCD's and returning to a playstyle of spamming a small handful of GCD heals over and over, but I really dislike that you can just blindly churn out 1000 potency Medica II's, ignore the rest of your toolkit and get away with it.

I do wish planning and mapping and efficient healing was rewarded with more than getting in a few extra noodle dps GCD's that barely matter.

GCD heals are actually just too good and are an easy crutch for inexperienced players to rely on, rather than a last resort.

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Originally Posted by einschwartz

A video was recommended on my feed recently of Dancing Plague Normal where the run was supposedly carried by healer.
What actually happened was the player (WHM) keeping a full up-time of Medica II. Meaning, they constantly reapply Medica II the very second it falls off. It was really hard to watch (I clicked off at 50s). :(

The Aggro thread makes me wish overhealing would still rip aggro from tanks. Though I am unsure if it's possible to code to make it work. It doesn't add much engagement to healer's gameplay but at least it's something the average DF healers have to be wary of.

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I think I've seen that exact video, or maybe a similar video where it was like "clutch healer saves run" in Crown of the Immaculate normal where it was very similar. If people want to play like that, more power to them I suppose, but what annoys me is that the people who play like this also seem to be of the crowd who think that "healing would be too hard if we had more than 1 button!" and want to vehemently defend the current design that gets them an easy carry.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I was asking more about Aqua Veil and the Flower motif being included. The Flower part I can kind of understand with the whole "I'll give you a beautiful Flower" thing with Meteion but it just feels like WHM's aesthetic design is all over the place.

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It wasn't really that surprising. We've had that sort of motif for a while. Back in Stormblood, we had a cane that literally had butterflies fluttering around the end of it. This isn't something new in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It wasn't really that surprising. We've had that sort of motif for a while. Back in Stormblood, we had a cane that literally had butterflies fluttering around the end of it. This isn't something new in Endwalker.

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ShB had that too for WHM with the final relic step, Blade's Mercy having butterflies floating (maybe this is what you mean)
It's a bit confusing when SCH got Expedient which has butterflies too... why do WHM and SCH both have this aesthetic choice present in their items/abilities?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

ShB had that too for WHM with the final relic step, Blade's Mercy having butterflies floating (maybe this is what you mean)
It's a bit confusing when SCH got Expedient which has butterflies too... why do WHM and SCH both have this aesthetic choice present in their items/abilities?

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Nope, I mean the Antiquated Aymur, the artifact gear cane, had butterflies flying around the end. We also got the Lily mechanic in that expansion.

They do seem to not be able to make up their mind if they want us to be a pretty pretty flower princess or a nun, since from HW, to SB, to ShB we went nun, pretty pretty flower princess, then back to nun. Though in EW they did something new and made us a wedding cake. I think that one has butterflies, too.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

ShB had that too for WHM with the final relic step, Blade's Mercy having butterflies floating (maybe this is what you mean)
It's a bit confusing when SCH got Expedient which has butterflies too... why do WHM and SCH both have this aesthetic choice present in their items/abilities?

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It's kind of the same question:

Why did WHM get wings via Temperance and SCH didn't? Seems like it would have been more thematic for SCH.

This game suffer of mom spaghetti. The first time was great but longer you eat it the longer you cannot stand it. That what I feel like with this game in general. This expansion is a joke in terms transparacy with devs and playerbase. What I notice is Endwalker is semi rework of old content with the same safe content with touch of harvest moon. Don't get me wrong I want to see what about with harvest moon thing. But, devs should let us know this expansion are reworks in general.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

It's kind of the same question:

Why did WHM get wings via Temperance and SCH didn't? Seems like it would have been more aesthetically similar to SCH.

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Honestly, it's exactly what you'd expect to get upon eating your fairy.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Honestly, it's exactly what you'd expect to get upon eating your fairy.

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Side effects may include: Dry mouth, constipation, a tingling in the shoulder areas, sudden brightness, . . .