Bring Back Kaiten

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Kaiten added no additional depth to SAM. It was a button that had no nuance. No gray area

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Kaiten made it so you were able to boost all your Weaponskills for 20 Kenki, Shinten is just an attack for 25 Kenki. The Only Problem with Kaiten back then was if the Kaiten buffed Midare didn't crit, which btw could've been address with Kaiten giving crits or with the 6.1 Logic of Auto Crits, giving Direct Hit instead, btw also where is the nuance with Auto Crits?

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

The Only Problem with Kaiten back then was if the Kaiten buffed Midare didn't crit

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Literally irrelevant. Kaiten-era Midare and Shinten were identical in both crit chance and crit multiplier. No process they perform identically will differentiate them.

But yes, given that Kaiten itself added 50% damage, almost identically to a crit, it could have been made a way to guarantee the crit (with crit chance increasing the damage bonus instead, as always) without issue.

(It actually would have reduced the value of Kaiten faintly despite making it feel like more, since you could no longer benefit from multiplicity of Kaiten-crits but one would consistently see the big crit.)

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yes, actually. These are all "bad" buttons. You're getting close to a core problem with most DPS class designs in FFXIV (and in fact tanks and healers too but in different just thematically similar ways): They are mostly button bloat.

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Find me an MMO where, in the same contexts, one's kit isn't likewise mostly bloat? Heck, by your warrants, that'd be true even of most MOBA's abilities if they were placed in PvE against anything living long enough and/or encounters short enough for waste via overkill not to eventually wipe the party.

I'll agree that XIV's kits are, overall, shallow. In a PvE setting like XIV's, so are WoW's, so are GW2's, so are B&S's, and so even most of even Overwatch's (limited to just 2 rotational abilities from which to draw the bulk of their identity). Striking dummies reduce virtually every kit into either a set rotation or set priority order; the best they can hope for are for the APL (action priority list) to be quite long because of uncontrolled but mitigatable/capitalizable conditions.

Why, then, does XIV's kit tend to feel so much more shallow than the others? Part of it is the lack of available interrelation of kit components by which to leverage a deeper or more varied form of encounter, but prior even to that is... the lack of any such deeper or more varied encounter.

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So yeah, correct, virtually all such buttons are pointless for their respective jobs. And once you take them away, the static rotation exposed beneath the thin veneer shows how utterly simplistic it is, and that in turn shows just why static-rotation-type jobs just don't work well, at least for FFXIV.

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And yet they absolutely have worked for and in XIV... when the encounters themselves offered a constraint notable enough to introduce skill expression in shuffling around what parts remain modular in order to keep more important parts static. Trying to keep a rotation static despite likely or necessary uptime loss and conflicting priorities (say, upon add spawns or in needing to burst down a shield immediately so a necessarily lethal raidwide can be interrupted) involves at least as much cognitive load as adapting to RNG.

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Take for example the core visual/lore/operational identify of Samurai. Casted melee attacks.

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I don't agree that these have ever made or even been alleged to be the core of Samurai identity operationally or in lore. And if visual... see Kaiten.

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they aren't important enough

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They're a huge portion of your damage and the centerpiece of our rotation.

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they are too variable in their placement specifically

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They have been from the start, unless you mean TG. In which case, that's the most leverageably non-fixed part in all of Samurai's gameplay, so...

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They ought to be extremely restrictive moves

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How so? This sounds as vague and likely therefore to end up way off-base, frankly, as your postulations on what Monk themes and gameplay should have been (i.e., nothing like Monk has ever been or intended to be).

And if restriction was something you liked... see Kaiten.

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in fact not being able to do should probably be expected to happen sometimes to account for the burst in power.

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That's effectively asking for the job to be impossible to balance. How else would that whole portion of your damage be far more than its already immense portion and yet the overall kit be balanced around a frequent lack of that portion?

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Instead, Samurai has the same static-rotation GCD flow that autohotkey could play optimally for you, with the same filler oGCD spam as everyone else.

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Because it's in XIV. It's like everyone else in the sense that they striking dummy rotate in striking dummy encounters because what else could there possibly be? So would, in effect, any other MMO's class's kit. That's not remotely an issue specifically with Samurai theme.

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Those buttons you mention only exist to make you feel more busy while playing an incredibly mind-numbingly boring core gameplay.

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And yet Samurai would be a hell of a lot more dull without "those buttons" (Shinten, Midare, Tenka, Higan, Yaten, and Gyoten, half of which you called the representatives for the core of Samurai identity).

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It's the equivalent of constantly having to tap on buildings to collect currency in mobile games, nothing more, nothing less.

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Perhaps if said games had a fixed rhythm, fixed gaps, differing priorities between early- and late-gap oGCD presses, and far more to track. At which point it'd be, well, nothing like currency-collection tap-spamming in a mobile game. Because it isn't. You should already be aware that it isn't.

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To a very small degree this is not problematic or unexpected, but in FFXIV these non-player-interactive filler buttons have become the vast majority of skills and hence hotbars are so bloated that this is noteworthy when people discuss the game to non-players.

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Agreed. Too much is bloat.

But apply your warrants equally. If anything we hit "just for damage", for instance, becomes inherently "bloat", we're left with next to nothing (and if including indirect contribution, then truly nothing, as every fight is ended by killing things so even healing and mit are ultimately in the interest of damage).

Moreover, I suspect that most things we can think of to use for damage would still, ultimately, be used in rote rotation so long as encounters and other contexts of combat in XIV remain so unvaried. You could have the fanciest ramping-per-crit ability that requires you and two others to dash through the boss and rotate alternatingly in a hexagram formation and buffs your next-next hit and it'd still slot in rotationally, just with firmer job constraints... so long as the encounters allow that to be a norm.

well yeah Kenki still feels useless like it currently is because there is no much else you use it on but burst.

But Samurai's Dawntrail Gameplay is enough to bullshit you into having fun, which is better than Viper which is only enjoyable with a Good Glamour, or NIN (okay at least Raiton is still fun, but Zesho Meppo/Deathfrog should be just a permanent upgrade instead of a 2min) or DRG(is supposed to Jump but these new animations just fall flat).. also lvl100 Monk, where is my Hundred Fists Skill!?

Though I may have a New Proposal to the Bring Back Kaiten Demand:
Tendo for 20 Kenki
think about it, I mean there is no reason for a Samurai to do a Tendoless Iaijutsu at lvl100, so I have to Visions for the Future:

The Hopeful One:
Kaiten returns at lvl52 but granting the next weaponskill to be direct hit and getting The Tendo Buff at lvl100.
The Desperate/Consequent One:
The Kenki Removal would be the consequent path of the Direction of the Current Samurai, since there is not much use for Kenki outside of Shinten. Gyoten, Yaten are utility and do not necessarily need Kenki anyway and I do not know anyone who asked for One Minute Senei/Guren.

But I'm also not a Fan of the simplification of all rotations and harmonizations, like the Mumyo Shoha Removal.. yes, because I wanted Shoha to be Geirskogul ugh..
I remain of the opinion that 6.08 Samurai was the peak state of Samurai Gameplay and all they had to do is to

1. Make Kaiten Direct Hit
2. make Sen'ei/Guren into buffs to Shinten/Kyoten, activated by Ikishoten
3. keep Tenka Goken Conal

Also: Iaijutsu should always require a target
The Fantasy of a Sword Master possess the ability and agency to decide what to target and what not in order to become One with the Battlefield.

and now a little RANT:
How does it feel that Ikishoten is your 2minute Conal AoE Button now?
that Zanshin not only requires Zanshin ready but also 50 Kenki? a bit redundant if you ask me 2 requirements for One OGCD Cone Attack.. The Funniest Part about it is: I didn't even need to rewrite my Double Slice Buster Macro, which I still rewrote by renaming it into Rising Slice Buster, but yeah I'm not a Fan of the current direction of Rotation Design due to compromise of Job Fantasy and Harmonization.

Sorry for the nitpicks, but...

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

Kaiten returns at lvl52 but granting the next weaponskill to be direct hit

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This would be a damage loss if the auto-crit were removed from Iaijutsu. If it remains, it would be only exactly as damage-efficient (240p on Midare for 20K instead of 300p for 25K) as Shinten. You would need to increase the potency of Iaijutsu to make an auto-direct (only a 25% modifier, down from 50%), which would have to be siphoned from elsewhere, or decrease its Kenki cost (say, to 15, which would bring it back to its old 16p/K instead of Shinten's 12p/K).

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I do not know anyone who asked for One Minute Senei/Guren.

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I didn't, but nonetheless enjoy the change. They're more interesting hit slightly more often.

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Also: Iaijutsu should always require a target

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At this point, that's simply saying that SAM shouldn't be allowed to destealth nearby invisible enemies with their largest AoE.

I preferred moving in and out for Fuga->Oka->Tenka, etc., but I doubt most will care at this point.

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How does it feel that Ikishoten is your 2minute Conal AoE Button now?

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It feels fine. Ikishoten still does what it's always done: it forces you to drop to 35-50 Kenki before hitting it as not to overcap. It just now happens to not be quite so worth hitting almost precisely on CD in dungeons. The extra pressure it put on our Kenki gauge by being a 60s CD will be missed, but only barely, especially without a desynced Guren/Senei (which did the same until their cost was halved).

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that Zanshin not only requires Zanshin ready but also 50 Kenki? a bit redundant if you ask me 2 requirements for One OGCD Cone Attack.

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Yes and no. Again, Ikishoten still makes you drop Kenki prior as before. It does feel weird that it now provides only 2 extra APM, down from 3, though. Before, it felt more frenetic to spend everything in a short burst before and after Iki, and while it's only lost one oGCD spender, it can sometimes feel more empty than that difference since we'll have frequently gone from zero extra space to finally having it. I might also be happier if Zanshin was charged by different means, but... probably not by much.

Tl;dr: I think you're making a bit too much out of the loss of Kenki, at this point (ignoring the other contributors to the results you mention) and failing to notice what's still working just as before (i.e., just fine).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This would be a damage loss if the auto-crit were removed from Iaijutsu. If it remains, it would be only exactly as damage-efficient (240p on Midare for 20K instead of 300p for 25K) as Shinten. You would need to increase the potency of Iaijutsu to make an auto-direct (only a 25% modifier, down from 50%), which would have to be siphoned from elsewhere, or decrease its Kenki cost (say, to 15, which would bring it back to its old 16p/K instead of Shinten's 12p/K).

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I mean this could be trivially resolved if we fudge with numbers a bit, and Kaiten comes back, costs 20, and actually adds a flat 240 potency to the next GCD.

Would it be at all worth doing that over just using Shinten? No of course not. But hey, if people are so insistent on Kaiten despite how it mechanically offers no gameplay improvement, might as well bring the flair back but make it exactly a wash in damage, then it can exist and whoever wants to use it can use it, the rest can just use Shinten instead.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I mean this could be trivially resolved if we fudge with numbers a bit, and Kaiten comes back, costs 20, and actually adds a flat 240 potency to the next GCD.

Would it be at all worth doing that over just using Shinten? No of course not. But hey, if people are so insistent on Kaiten despite how it mechanically offers no gameplay improvement, might as well bring the flair back but make it exactly a wash in damage, then it can exist and whoever wants to use it can use it, the rest can just use Shinten instead.

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That is not remotely worth doing. At least Eos/Selene skins now are pretty clearly cosmetic, but that's not going to be the instinctive conclusion about an actual combat skill.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That is not remotely worth doing. At least Eos/Selene skins now are pretty clearly cosmetic, but that's not going to be the instinctive conclusion about an actual combat skill.

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And yet if you hid the damage numbers from players, they would not even be able to tell the difference. /shrug

But at that point I got to wonder, what about Kaiten do people desire back? The gameplay? Well in that case my idea would be perfect, no? The change in fixed rotation from The Balance? Is that such a big deal whether you use a rotation someone else wrote down for you, or another rotation someone else wrote down for you? Or is it the damage, pining for a time when Samurai could easily outdamage other jobs by a mile "if played correctly"? (because then bad news, that is quite unlikely to come back, especially after the recent Picto debacle)

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Originally Posted by Carighan

And yet if you hid the damage numbers from players, they would not even be able to tell the difference. /shrug)

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If you hid damage numbers, nothing would make any difference. It's a non-sequitur.

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But at that point I got to wonder, what about Kaiten do people desire back? The gameplay?

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Yes, but most people like for optimization to have a reward. Imagine if every mechanic were purely cosmetic. How many Ultimate raiders would feel engaged therein? Hell, how many players who just aren't Netflix-and-Broil casual, even?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yes, but most people like for optimization to have a reward. Imagine if every mechanic were purely cosmetic. How many Ultimate raiders would feel engaged therein? Hell, how many players who just aren't Netflix-and-Broil casual, even?

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But that's the thing, the vast majority are. The majority of 1-2-3 combos for example have no reason to exist. They could be cleanly replaced with a single button that first tries to cash in X stacks of a self buff for some effect, and if not adds 1 such stack on the player. Average out the damage, you just removed a combo at exactly 0 loss of gameplay and functionality. The combo is purely cosmetic, to support 3 different animations despite factually only having a single gameplay effect.

Effects such as Senei and Guren likewise only exist to support an extra animation and pretend the job is more complex than it is, plenty other games solve this via a CD-based proc. At no loss of gameplay, in particular because in FFXIV we are on a fixed schedule of 120s anyways, so deviation for optimization purposes is always a fixed affair where an optimal solution has been pre-computed and you just have to play the monkey and press the buttons in that order (modulo the fight mechanics but that again leads to 1 single static optimal solution for each fight at most, usually it's 2-3 for a whole expansion however).

I get what you mean, but what you describe as the bad hypothetical case is what we have. That's after all my big issue with the current combat system and class design, that 20+ buttons and so many lengthy tooltips all come together to achieve a gameplay depth of about a puddle and exactly 0 player agency. Even in the specific case you mention, player-agency wise knowing which skill to press Kaiten for and which not to is no different than knowing when to pool gauge and when not to. It's a simple rote memorization thing, not actual interaction or agency.

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I should add, I think the idea behind Kaiten or something akin to it is pretty damn cool, but it's previous incarnation is no better (but also no worse) than the replacement. Neither offers gameplay worth mentioning, in fact I'd argue neither are worse a hotbar spot and the whole gauge of Samurai serves no purpose and could be cleanly removed. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't want gameplay focused around preparing enhancements for the next attack, after all Warlocks in DAoC were a fantastic idea and actually fit really well in the context of that game. The underlying idea is awesome!