What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by s0uleman

I didn't shed any tears after presuming it was going to be sob fest judging from the many reviewers who had cried buckets and needed time to 'process'....i must have a cold heart or something as i never got the feels and didn't need a day or two to 'process' anything.

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I'm a hair trigger crier and the only parts that got me sobbing were the Emet & Hythlodaeus scenes. There were a couple of other misty-eyed moments, but nothing else hit as hard. The only thing I needed to process was why the same person responsible for ShB and the alternate timeline decided to go with an awful time loop in EW where we didn't get to save anyone.

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

So ultimately, Zenos helps save the world and also gets the final say in what your character is. Naturally, we can't turn down the prospect of a duel, lest we set him back to his pre-Alisaie mentality or just let him walk away Scott-free for all he's done. But we don't even get the option to tell him off or punish him in some way beyond making him slightly disappointed that he lost again and somewhat reflective on the fact that he never really cared about people because Varis was a bad father. He more or less gets what he wants again and gets to pass away (maybe) on his terms.

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This was unfortunately consistent throughout EW. I guess the writers/devs had a vision for the WoL and their journey that they wanted the player to have too, so you weren't allowed to act in any way outside of that vision and your character was manipulated through animation and expression to further force that perspective.

EW story was completely rushed and in my opinion it could easily be worst than Stormblood.

I honestly pretend that the story ended in Shadowbringers.

I've been listening to Flow (venat's theme) OST on YouTube lately and I've come across one video where it also contains several venat's cutscenes. They make me realize how privilege venat is and she didn't share one bit to her fellow Ancients.

She's the only one who: 1) know about Meteion's existence and importance of dynamis, 2) listen to Meteion's report of doomed worlds and one which parallel to the Ancients, and 3) listen to WoL's adventure story, knew about the sundered life and the beauty of it, how mortality and suffering is "key" to defeat meteion (as much as I disagree, but this isn't the point for now).

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Really felt like they were building up Varis into someone we would work with (begrudgingly or no) especially with Regula's last words in mind... it never happened. He was actually pretty sympathetic in Stormblood -- childhood best friend and one of the few people he trusted dead, his wife/Zenos' mother dead, and stuck between two Ascians trying to hold out against them while they taunted him (and reminded him of how little control he had). He truly seemed to care about his people and the Empire's ideals and knew about Amaurot, though how much he did or how he even knew was up in the air. But instead at the very end he just does a funny sinister meme face and releases the gas that he was so against using to the point where Elidibus was getting fed up and visibly annoyed. Really done dirty.

Though if you think about it, he kind of got what he wanted, for mankind to decide their own fate, thanks to us. He's probably sharing a beer in the Lifestream with Ilberd right now. Speaking of which, why'd we have to fight that guy (aside from fanservice memberberries)? Should've just told him Ala Mhigo was free now.

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Its kind of sad now that we have the finished expansion, that Varis died to hype up Zenos but zenos did like…nothing substantial at all. It was quite literally just Stormblood all over again where he’s obsessing over a fight. Varis would have been far more interesting but idk…at this point it seems like the devs have some kind of hatred for anything Garlemald. The way Gabranth got completely shafted,Regula,Varis. Destroyed the whole place off screen etc.

I didn't watch the live letter so I'm only getting pieces second-hand. From what I gathered Yoshida was confused or surprised that people found Venat's motives questionable at the least. I'm going to break this down a bit and please tell me if I get something wrong.

Person A wanted to change humanity and decided their abilities and memories be removed. Upon doing this multiple other worlds were created and mankind and plenty of other life lived in these worlds (worlds 2-14). Person A purposefully left Person B, as well as a couple others, with their powers and memories. Person A knew that that leaving Person B (with memories and powers) would cause deaths of of several select worlds. Person A could not intervene because person C was needed to be at their best and thus required the powers from [their shard selves] these worlds. Person A did not tell their allies that all this was going to happen. This was in order to solve the Big Problem that only person A knew about because they did not tell anyone. This information came to Person A before the Big Problem started.

Person B didn't know why Person A was doing what they were doing. Person B knew about the Big Problem initially but had their memory wiped. Person B's group summoned a protector that required their people to be willingly sacrificed to postpone the Big Problem. After this, person A did the thing to remove the memories and powers of Person B's group (but not Person B themselves) and create the multiple words that Person A knew would have to die for Person C to be ready to tackle the Big Problem.

Person C did not have a guarantee to fix the Big Problem. There was another plan, one that did not fix the Big Problem and was also another gamble.

I'm trying to look at this from an outside perspective and it seems to be the best solution would be for Person A to give the information they know to Person B's group so multiple worlds would not have to be made just to die because of a gamble on Person C. I guess there's the time travel that wasn't mentioned involved, but Person C got the information they needed in order to try to save world 1, their own world. Maybe the finer details matter, I don't know, but from looking at it, both person A and B look bad.

Also if we add the details and Brinne's explanation for Venat's actions
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5854982

You either get a Venat that has the mentality of a child, or a complete psychopath. She literally remolded the world and mankind into something that would be more interesting to her and to potentially solve a problem that she withheld information on. Maybe after that 12,000 years she finally realized what she did was wrong and that's why she apologizes. The scions didn't care though because it benefited them in the end. For someone to see something as "good" because it benefits them at the expense of others is kind of gross. Y'shtola not saying anything was baffling. Back in ARR with one of the scenes before Titan, Y'shtola confronted the Admiral about breaking a peace treaty with the kobolds and taking their land. The admiral said yeah it was wrong, but I don't care, I'm here to help my own people at the expense of others. I know this is not on the same level as killing multiple worlds, but Y'shtola still thought there was a better solution.

Brinne's Venat explanation is the only one I can find that makes sense of the complete 180 that she pulled. It makes sense for Hydaelyn to be designed the way she was because when would have seen herself as a savior and a mother to these new creations. She thought she was helping humanity with them being the best they could be. She is the worst parts of Hermes and Hades combined. I wanted to like Hydaelyn, but this description makes sense and is the most depressing thing about the story, not the existential crisis bs.

Zodiark's design fits him, it's very strong with aspects of the sea (octopus!) air, and land. I guess the statue was a prototype? Why is it so different?

Also out of curiosity, how many more worlds did Meteion potentially bring the end of between us in Elpis and her own death? Also, she did say they all made it to their destinations safely, but did they all survive on the planets? One mentioned a planet with the bones resembling "men", was she only looking for humanoid life? Were there any planets that ignored her or even killed her? I'm assuming they would not have gotten into the report.

And why did we need a giant spaceship the size of an ark to get everyone from the planet to the moon, just for it to not be capable of doing that, instead of a teleporter? The bunnies would have made one side on the moon, made cute little bunny spaceships to get to the plant and make the other half with technology that already exists. They were already working on aetherite travel that didn't need attunement. Why not pour all your efforts into that instead of a giant spaceship to hold all of humanity except the garleans because there was going to be no way they would have been allowed on.

Are we just going to drop Dynamis as a concept from here on out since it's part of the "old story"? I think it's stupid but I'd rather it get expanded on instead of dropped like all these other plot threads. How many of these plot threads are going to be dropped? Why did Yoshida not think people looked into the story that much when we have lore books? Ethys and Anonymoos? Is he that out of touch with the people who play the game for the story?

I think that's all my burning questions so far. I might have more next week!

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

Yeah, I was disappointed that Varis just kinda died off. I thought he was a bit ridiculous in a few points, but I definitely was curious if we'd ever manage to turn around his viewpoint, especially after the reveal he was an unwilling participant in the Ascians' schemes.

Instead, he just dies and never really stops being a dick. I guess he's like Quintus in that regard, but it's still a bit disappointing.

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It's easy to paint him in such a way but I don't think either he or Varis were just being that way for the sake of it - Garlemald's entire credo stemmed from a history of other nations trying to trample over it, so it built up an ideology valuing strength and self-reliance and harboured deep-seated distrust of its neighbours and any "peace" offers. Completely understandable, IMO, whether one agrees with their methods or not. I think there's even some parallels with the Ascians in the injustices it suffered and the harsh methods it resorted to in order to remedy them. Symbolically, Quintus's death was similar to the "out with the lingering obstacles" stuff we saw in Ultima Thule, which rubbed me the wrong way in a sense, and I hope we're not just going to have more rather empty nonsense that they need to give up their hope to reclaim Locus Amoenus and "move on", even if it need not end up with those who took up residence thereafter in shackles.

This isn't really a complaint, but since we're poking at the story I had a thought I wanted to share: do you think the Ascians ever just found it awkward that The Watcher was likely always observing their evil plans? Like, Elidibus goes to meet Ardbert on the Moon and there's just this 11 foot tall guy in the background most likely watching them for any signs of shenanigans?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It's easy to paint him in such a way but I don't think either he or Varis were just being that way for the sake of it - Garlemald's entire credo stemmed from a history of other nations trying to trample over it, so it built up an ideology valuing strength and self-reliance and harboured deep-seated distrust of its neighbours and any "peace" offers. Completely understandable, IMO, whether one agrees with their methods or not. I think there's even some parallels with the Ascians in the injustices it suffered and the harsh methods it resorted to in order to remedy them. Symbolically, Quintus's death was similar to the "out with the lingering obstacles" stuff we saw in Ultima Thule, which rubbed me the wrong way in a sense, and I hope we're not just going to have more rather empty nonsense that they need to give up their hope to reclaim Locus Amoenus and "move on", even if it need not end up with those who took up residence thereafter in shackles.

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I will admit that I didn't really care for how two of the three big "deal with the depression of these dead races" moments in Ultima Thule were basically just the Scions going "Eh, who cares?", with only G'raha displaying an alternative point of view that was designed to help the person he was talking to.

For that matter, they had the same reaction to Thancred seemingly being killed by Meteion, which was also jarring.

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Originally Posted by DevonEllwood

The scions didn't care though because it benefited them in the end. For someone to see something as "good" because it benefits them at the expense of others is kind of gross.

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Yep. I believe the only morally correct choice was to prevent the sundering from happening, but then some argued I was killing the billions of people who existed as a result of it. People who didn't exist yet. People who would exist as a result of not only the death of the Ancient civilization, but 7 rejoinings. It'd ultimately end up saving more lives than it took unless you believe preventing a future is killing people.

The WoL seemingly doesn't care about sacrificing the Ancient world if it means saving theirs and their future friends. Ardbert didn't care about trashing the Source if it meant it'd save the First (while he was misled into believing that was a possibility, the point still stands). This seems to be par for the course for our Azem. I don't know what the team has in mind that Azem was doing during the Final Days, but I feel the need to reiterate that being on board with Venat's plan would be the antithesis of what we've seen from their reincarnations.

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Are we just going to drop Dynamis as a concept from here on out since it's part of the "old story"? I think it's stupid but I'd rather it get expanded on instead of dropped like all these other plot threads. How many of these plot threads are going to be dropped? Why did Yoshida not think people looked into the story that much when we have lore books? Ethys and Anonymoos? Is he that out of touch with the people who play the game for the story?

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I miss Ethys, I was looking forward to his commentary. I honestly hope we do drop dynamis. Personally, I was hoping over time the WoL would eventually become whole, starting with merging with their voidsent shard from the 13th. Dynamis throws a wrench into everything implying that being whole again would be a bad thing because we couldn't interact with it as easily anymore.

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

do you think the Ascians ever just found it awkward that The Watcher was likely always observing their evil plans? Like, Elidibus goes to meet Ardbert on the Moon and there's just this 11 foot tall guy in the background most likely watching them for any signs of shenanigans?

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A lot of the moon stuff didn't make sense to me. There's a barrier preventing it from being hit with an aether blast, but someone can just teleport up there any time and slice through Zodiark's bindings with a scythe completely unimpeded? Really? Given that Venat knew how these events played out you'd think she'd have better than half-assed protections. Hell, even the unsundered Ascians should've had some kind of failsafe in place if a being of Zodiark's power were that vulnerable to being released and controlled.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

A lot of the moon stuff didn't make sense to me. There's a barrier preventing it from being hit with an aether blast, but someone can just teleport up there any time and slice through Zodiark's bindings with a scythe completely unimpeded? Really? Given that Venat knew how these events played out you'd think she'd have better than half-assed protections. Hell, even the unsundered Ascians should've had some kind of failsafe in place if a being of Zodiark's power were that vulnerable to being released and controlled.

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I'm going to assume they never accounted for some loony creating an elaborate aether cannon that was siphoning power from across the entire world to blast the barrier with.

The wards were probably nigh-impregnable vs. more conventional methods prior to that assault.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Yep. I believe the only morally correct choice was to prevent the sundering from happening, but then some argued I was killing the billions of people who existed as a result of it. People who didn't exist yet. People who would exist as a result of not only the death of the Ancient civilization, but 7 rejoinings. It'd ultimately end up saving more lives than it took unless you believe preventing a future is killing people.
Indeed, and to add to this, 1) it didn't stop the Ironworks and 2) we know now that it would just cause an AU to form.

The WoL seemingly doesn't care about sacrificing the Ancient world if it means saving theirs and their future friends. Ardbert didn't care about trashing the Source if it meant it'd save the First (while he was misled into believing that was a possibility, the point still stands). This seems to be par for the course for our Azem. I don't know what the team has in mind that Azem was doing during the Final Days, but I feel the need to reiterate that being on board with Venat's plan would be the antithesis of what we've seen from their reincarnations.

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And you have the Ironworks making a similar decision - of course, an AU formed out of it, but they didn't know that would be the case when they made that decision (and this fact is still not known to the main cast.)

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I miss Ethys, I was looking forward to his commentary. I honestly hope we do drop dynamis. Personally, I was hoping over time the WoL would eventually become whole, starting with merging with their voidsent shard from the 13th. Dynamis throws a wrench into everything implying that being whole again would be a bad thing because we couldn't interact with it as easily anymore.

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There's nothing about dynamis that fundamentally interests me - it's just an alternative fuel source, but influenced by emotions (an angle which itself I care little for), and which is drowned out by aether, but which can be manipulated through workarounds. I'd rather rejoin with my characters' other shards, because there isn't anything dynamis adds to for me, since the powers my character uses already have aetheric explanations and again... it's just fuel, and its main point of interest is it can be harnessed for exploration in regions of space where it is more abundant. Although I don't think there's a good reason to do it, I can see dynamis being used to explain what is used as a power source in the Void... even though the stuff we learnt about a flood of light on the First renders this more or less superfluous. Any explanations that the Void lacks aether, can very easily be revised due to the fact that 1) the Source misunderstood the functioning of dark aether at the time (thought it was umbral in nature) and 2) is therefore potentially using measurement instruments not up to the task of measuring dark aether. Also worth noting that we initially were told such a flood of light would result in a nothingness, but instead it results in aether in a highly umbral state.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

A lot of the moon stuff didn't make sense to me. There's a barrier preventing it from being hit with an aether blast, but someone can just teleport up there any time and slice through Zodiark's bindings with a scythe completely unimpeded? Really? Given that Venat knew how these events played out you'd think she'd have better than half-assed protections. Hell, even the unsundered Ascians should've had some kind of failsafe in place if a being of Zodiark's power were that vulnerable to being released and controlled.

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I know they have valid and made sense explanation for this, but it's just funny to me that this can be explained as Venat purposely made the questionable security flaw because she need Zodiark to die, thus re-starting the Final Days and "force" the WoL to look for answer in the past. All of these so the time loop won't be broken.

Not saying that this is the case, but....

I have to wonder how long my forum access will hold out. It's been over a week now...

Well, the only real hopes I have for the story anymore are in regards to Pandaemonium. Best case scenario, the finale of the raid questline is what spins off a split timeline where things actually work out for the Unsundered World. Worst case scenario, it ends with the WoL singing "So long and thanks for all the fish" as they abandon them to their Hermes/Venat-induced Armageddon.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Worst case scenario, it ends with the WoL singing "So long and thanks for all the fish" as they abandon them to their Hermes/Venat-induced Armageddon.

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Unfortunately, due to the stupid time loop I suspect this is what we'll get since Elidibus had to remember us from Elpis to send us there.

I still can't believe there was no alternate timeline/happy ending for the Ancients. I don't care that all the Scions survived at the end, I care that Emet and Hythlodaeus got screwed over and that my character was an active participant in it.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Unfortunately, due to the stupid time loop I suspect this is what we'll get since Elidibus had to remember us from Elpis to send us there.

I still can't believe there was no alternate timeline/happy ending for the Ancients. I don't care that all the Scions survived at the end, I care that Emet and Hythlodaeus got screwed over and that my character was an active participant in it.

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Meanwhile, I still can't believe they did it. They repackaged Gaius van Baelsar in Disney sparkleprincess skin and got everyone to love, adore, and applaud it. I'll give Gaius some credit, though, he didn't kill billions and learned not to use a big shiny god-machine to force his ideals on people (mostly through it blowing up on his face).

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I have to wonder how long my forum access will hold out. It's been over a week now...

Well, the only real hopes I have for the story anymore are in regards to Pandaemonium. Best case scenario, the finale of the raid questline is what spins off a split timeline where things actually work out for the Unsundered World. Worst case scenario, it ends with the WoL singing "So long and thanks for all the fish" as they abandon them to their Hermes/Venat-induced Armageddon.

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To answer your forum access thing, i believe it’s two weeks of being unsubbed that you get locked out.

Split timeline wise, yeah it’s a bit funny to me the devs were willing to do it for the 8UC timeline but not the ancients, especially when the ancients had to endure and suffer far more than anyone else. I honestly think Elidibus had the worst of it out of any character in the game. Toils away for 12000+ years, gets betrayed by a friend and then sacrifices himself extinguishing his soul completely so no hope of reincarnation…and gets no praise for it whatsoever. And now we’re forced to go back and spend time with him as if he isn’t completely dead in our time. The devs are a bit sadistic in that regard, which is ironic to me because i’d enjoy something like that if it was for some of the protagonists since they never have to actually lose anything.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I have to wonder how long my forum access will hold out. It's been over a week now...

Well, the only real hopes I have for the story anymore are in regards to Pandaemonium. Best case scenario, the finale of the raid questline is what spins off a split timeline where things actually work out for the Unsundered World. Worst case scenario, it ends with the WoL singing "So long and thanks for all the fish" as they abandon them to their Hermes/Venat-induced Armageddon.

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My red line is if they use it to invent more ways in which the ancients would've been doomed "no matter what", and also if it just becomes more trite "Lahabrea bad" crap. More heavily weighted to the former, in all honesty. A split timeline would be cool but like Rulakir I do have some doubts as to whether they'd do it.

I feel like they already did that. It's surprising they considered The Plenty the path of the Ancients when it seems like treachery from within would have sabotaged them long before they were ever able to reach that point with Yoshi-P making it sound like it's just a very Ancient thing to do to destroy civilizations willy nilly.

What irritates me most about Elidibus is we never see his side of events. People are quick to mention we got Zodiark in ShB, but Elidibus' mind was so far gone he only talked about his duty. We learned little about his POV before, during, or after the Final Days. Meanwhile, EW was basically Venat's story. We didn't get both sides, we only got hers especially given that the Ascians were always missing crucial information.

Pandemonium so far has been disappointing. It doesn't seem it's going to change Elidibus' future and I don't care about Lahabrea's untalented son. I hope the whole thing isn't going to just be the Eric show with a Lahabrea cameo at the end. (I don't believe Eric is 'our' Lahabrea, I think he's pre-sundered Claudien.)

I meant from something besides meeting the Plenty. With regard to that scenario, we can't say how they would've reacted had they been told the truth, since Venat withheld it on her belief that her people couldn't change - it's only with that in mind that they frame it as a probable outcome. I don't think it's a particularly plausible scenario in the first case, but at worst (=they don't take measures to avoid it), it'd mean the death of their civilisation since the star would eventually produce new life. What I found funnier is the fact that it was driven as a scenario by the very same impulses which sundered mankind shares and aims towards... so while it may not hit it in the foreseeable future, they will eventually risk arriving at such an outcome, and certainly any of the outcomes seen on the other dead stars, which are in much closer reach (Ea excepted), IMO. I didn't really take Yoshi P's comment as anything other than him trying to give Venat an out (particularly given how poorly it fit with what else we knew of ancient society), because while the potential for treacherous individuals existed, it'd only really become a problem if the one with knowledge of that further decided to hide it all, forced in part due to the time loop being thrown in for good measure to constrain her actions/distract her with fantasies about some romanticised world. Overall, a very frustrating combination of plot devices.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

At the very least it would have been nice to have a longer conversation with the Ancient souls residing within Zodiark. More importantly, however, it would have been pleasant to see the Scions acknowledge that Zodiark was the one who put in the majority of the effort where keeping Etheirys safe is concerned. As a gesture of respect to the fallen, they should be spreading that knowledge far and wide. They're certainly all too eager to demand credit for each and every little errand that they, themselves, perform.

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...26/unknown.png

Ironic that it was Zodiark who gave Etheirys peace and Hydaelyn gave strife.

It's a little depressing to admit that I feel a lot less excited about what's coming in the future MSQ after the LL Q&A gave more insight into the thought process of the writers and that they basically didn't expect people to do deep thinking about the story and that they're willing to just drop plot threads on a whim if they decide they don't want to work with them anymore.

Trying to theorycraft about anything that isn't explicitly being hint-hinted by Yoshi or the writers themselves seems like a potential waste of time now in light of those developments.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It's a little depressing to admit that I feel a lot less excited about what's coming in the future MSQ after the LL Q&A gave more insight into the thought process of the writers and that they basically didn't expect people to do deep thinking about the story and that they're willing to just drop plot threads on a whim if they decide they don't want to work with them anymore.

Trying to theorycraft about anything that isn't explicitly being hint-hinted by Yoshi or the writers themselves seems like a potential waste of time now in light of those developments.

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I've been in a few lore chats that have gone into deep conspiracy theory-style guesses about lore, and the speculation in itself can be a fun timewaster, even if it ends up being 99% wrong... although the delay from ShB -> EW was so long I grew tired of it and dipped out. That Yoshi/the team apparently were surprised that people were wondering about the sundered Ascians (but they themselves have come up with true names/identities for all of them) was kind of 'huh'?

On the plus side, the dissatisfaction has led to me working on my own original stuff more. Even if no one else sees it but me.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

With regard to that scenario, we can't say how they would've reacted had they been told the truth, since Venat withheld it on her belief that her people couldn't change - it's only with that in mind that they frame it as a probable outcome.

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I'm reminded of a Mythbusters episode where they proved that both Jack and Rose could have floated on the door at the end of Titanic. James Cameron said it didn't matter, the script said Jack had to die. This is my fear with the Ancients, that they were always going to be destroyed because that's the singular vision the writer(s) had for them and they were only ever meant to be a plot device for the sundered. The fact that they don't seem interested in devoting any more attention to them (despite being the foundation of the world's lore) adds to that theory, which is a shame since the Ancients' history was the most interesting arc to come out of FFXIV since HW.

Whatever new story they have going forward had better be worth it.

I kind of got the impression that the Ancients where a society where questioning the status quo or even wondering if it could even change was heavily discouraged. So after Metion nuked the status quo out of existence all that matter was restoring it. and they' dtoss the entire world into the fire for a plan with any chance or doing no matter how low

I'd disagree with that. They saw debating as something to be encouraged and participated in it. Hardly a position you get to by discouraging questioning the status quo. What they did discourage was certain types of flaunting of differences, hence the masks and robes. Any species that is used to a measure of stability (humans included) will find the kind of disruption they faced (near total death of their star) very difficult and will attempt to restore things to how they were. It doesn't take much self-reflection to realise we do that too, and would certainly do it in the shoes of the Amaurotines, if we had similar measures to do so at our disposal.

I have 2 theories for why the timeline was able to be altered successfully in shadow bringers. Theory one It only worked because there it involve two worlds with their own history i.e there was already 2 separate timelines to begin with. Theory 2 the universe noticed it was warrior of light themselves time traveling and rewrote all the rules of time on the spot out of spite because it hates us

I didn't want to make a new thread for it, but I've been thinking about how the 8UC (or 'original') timeline would turn out for the Ancients. The WoL is dead, Emet & Elidibus are still alive so Fandaniel can't carry through his plans, and Hydaelyn is further weakened. Let's assume the Ascians meet their rejoining goals. You think Hydaelyn would go for a round 2 sundering or finally concede that she needs to tell them the truth to deal with the still present danger of Meteion? Would they trust anything she says at that point?

Course, the WoL can still be reincarnated and the Ascians are unlikely to reach their goal before the WoL is in fighting shape to stand against them (assuming that the Source recovers from the 8UC and that Hydaelyn has the strength to make the WoL her champion again).

I also can't figure out how to reconcile the time loop with the original timeline. I started to think it could be delayed with a reincarnated WoL making the trip a few decades later, but there's no Crystal Tower in the 8UC anymore so it'd have to be a different method (if one exists).

Maybe I should just headcanon that the WoL's final act before death is to use the CT one last time to go to Amaurot, tell the trio (including themselves) everything, and hope for the best. :P I'll forever be annoyed that they couldn't have just had Elpis branch into an alternate timeline where everyone is saved and Venat remains charming instead of turning into Hermes 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I didn't want to make a new thread for it, but I've been thinking about how the 8UC (or 'original') timeline would turn out for the Ancients. The WoL is dead, Emet & Elidibus are still alive so Fandaniel can't carry through his plans, and Hydaelyn is further weakened. Let's assume the Ascians meet their rejoining goals. You think Hydaelyn would go for a round 2 sundering or finally concede that she needs to tell them the truth to deal with the still present danger of Meteion? Would they trust anything she says at that point?

Course, the WoL can still be reincarnated and the Ascians are unlikely to reach their goal before the WoL is in fighting shape to stand against them (assuming that the Source recovers from the 8UC and that Hydaelyn has the strength to make the WoL her champion again).

I also can't figure out how to reconcile the time loop with the original timeline. I started to think it could be delayed with a reincarnated WoL making the trip a few decades later, but there's no Crystal Tower in the 8UC anymore so it'd have to be a different method (if one exists).

Maybe I should just headcanon that the WoL's final act before death is to use the CT one last time to go to Amaurot, tell the trio (including themselves) everything, and hope for the best. :P I'll forever be annoyed that they couldn't have just had Elpis branch into an alternate timeline where everyone is saved and Venat remains charming instead of turning into Hermes 2.0.

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With the circumstances being different and not on the First, I wonder how Emet-Selch would react to meeting a freshly reincarnated 9/14ths (or further) WoL... in any case, if Hydaelyn truly cared about Mankind(tm) I'm sure she would be forced to produce the truth when Elidibus gets back into the Zodiark suit and swoops on in. Then there's the matter of the Mothercrystal and what they could do with it.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

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I find myself thinking about it again and again months later, but it is pretty ironic that she had much better PR in Shadowbringers... the ascian-focused expac. She seemed like a caring nice person who respected the Convocation, but wanted to do what she felt was right (stopping the controversial 3rd sacrifice), and the Sundering was plausibly an accident born of her conflict with Zodiark. An accident that she managed to make the best of. And there was no reason to suspect that she was involved with the Final Days... I never asked for this, but I suppose fate was sealed when she was named Venat of all things.

I have missed the meat of this discussion and I blame that on my not catching the flaws in the story of EW the first time through and needing several weeks of thinking it over to realize just how messed up it was. I did want to say that I appreciate that there is a safe space here for people to actually say what they think about EW without risk of being completely bullied and harassed to hell and back (unlike Reddit or Twitter). I hope it's not too late to leave my two cents here.

Realizing that the event that killed the Ancients was preventable simply enraged me. We meet Venat who seems very cool and likes to spit fresh lines like "Nothing is Impossible" and "If it could be imagined, it could be done"; so I stupidly believed that holy hell, maybe we could make a difference here! If they knew what was going to happen, maybe I could save my friends! So we break all the rules of time-travel and I tell them about their future! And Emet-Selch gets upset, which is not surprising, but they ultimately believe me! And then some really dumb stuff involving memory wiping happens and the only people left with knowledge of the future events are myself and Venat, but it’s ok because she would never give up, right?! Not this person who believes that nothing is insurmountable?!

She destroys her entire race because of her own convictions. She doesn’t even give them a chance to defend themselves or find a solution that doesn’t involve drastic measures. She seems to hold the world we tell her about as some sort of idealistic pinnacle when, in reality, Eorzea is shit. The First is shit. The endless pain and suffering is shit. And she does all this for the sake of some person that she knows for half a day and who may have died the second they returned from Elpis. She has NO IDEA. And she KILLS HER WORLD for this off-chance at pawning the fight off onto this person 12k years in the future. She creates seven worlds that she knows will be destroyed. She makes mass murderers out of innocent people. She manipulates us every step of the way and none of this is reflected in the game.

While my only option when interacting with the big, bad Ascians is to frown and let them know that I am going to punch their face in, no matter how relatable they are, my only options when dealing with Hydaelyn are the complete opposite. Oh, mommy is sad that she has waterfalls of blood running from her hands? It’s ok, let’s tell her how much we appreciate her! Just in case you didn’t get the message, here’s a minion telling you again that Venat is really a hero! No, I’m sorry but she’s absolutely not. Not to me. To me she’s a subversive traitor who’s responsible for the deaths and endless suffering of billions of people. Second only in body count to Hermes. She allows my friends to die, allows one to suffer for millennia and bloody his hands, she kills my original self. She’s unforgivable and I’m glad she can never return. She doesn’t deserve to.

The writers want to tell us that the ancients were doomed to fail and end up like the residents of The Plenty.

I argue that now the world is on a course to end up like the first two areas of The Dead Ends.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

I find myself thinking about it again and again months later, but it is pretty ironic that she had much better PR in Shadowbringers... the ascian-focused expac. She seemed like a caring nice person who respected the Convocation, but wanted to do what she felt was right (stopping the controversial 3rd sacrifice), and the Sundering was plausibly an accident born of her conflict with Zodiark. An accident that she managed to make the best of. And there was no reason to suspect that she was involved with the Final Days... I never asked for this, but I suppose fate was sealed when she was named Venat of all things.

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I've never actually played any of the previous FF titles so I wasn't even aware that Venat was originally an antagonist in another game until afterwards. I wish I'd had that knowledge going in, maybe I would have been a bit more prepared. I know a lot of people at the time had theories that Hydaelyn would end up being the Big Bad behind everything but I hadn't seen any real reason to dislike her or distrust her even after what we learned in ShB; I had faith that everything that she'd done, while sad, must have ultimately been because there was no other way and for the greater good and that I just hadn't gotten the full story yet. After all, I'd only had the antagonist's word for it, right? Haha, silly me

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

The writers want to tell us that the ancients were doomed to fail and end up like the residents of The Plenty.

I argue that now the world is on a course to end up like the first two areas of The Dead Ends.

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I'd agree with that. No matter how jaunty they want to make that 6.1 artwork, you know our character is just heading towards their next war scenario. It's a video game so I understand that battles will be a part of it, with the occasional cheeseburger dinner break, I guess. But if the writer's intention was to draw some sort of meaningful parallel saying "look at these Ancients and their peaceful world where they seek to better their star, what a pile of shit! Who'd want that?! Just wait, maybe millions of years into the future they are gonna be SO BORED!!1" next to the never-ending struggle of our world as it is now...I'd still take the former and my chances, thanks.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

I'd agree with that. No matter how jaunty they want to make that 6.1 artwork, you know our character is just heading towards their next war scenario. It's a video game so I understand that battles will be a part of it, with the occasional cheeseburger dinner break, I guess. But if the writer's intention was to draw some sort of meaningful parallel saying "look at these Ancients and their peaceful world where they seek to better their star, what a pile of shit! Who'd want that?! Just wait, maybe millions of years into the future they are gonna be SO BORED!!1" next to the never-ending struggle of our world as it is now...I'd still take the former and my chances, thanks.

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The game did a very awkward take with the a world of suffering is better than a world without as people might get bored with out suffering

I was really expecting that there was something fundamentally wrong with the Convocation's plan to revive the lost Ancients that at minimum would've been a senseless sacrifice of life and at worse risked undoing everything Zodiark had done to preserve the world.

Something that would've made the Sundering felt more convincingly like something that had to happen and not just coming across as being mostly motivated by the shallow logic of "Because the future said so".

Venat would've been a much more compelling character if she had been shooting blind with her decision; not knowing in advance that things would end up mostly okay (In the sense that the world still alive and poised to eliminate the Final Days at its source). Heck, she didn't even necessarily need to know about the whole dynamis interaction and it could've been something she only gleaned from the second coming of the Final Days, with her originally resigned to thinking that fleeing Etheriys was the only option available. That would've removed the need for her to know about the future at all and the ark on the moon could've just been a contingency in the event Zodiark's wards ever failed.

There's many ways they could've broached it that would've left her as more sympathetic. My favoured approach was for the instigator of the Final Days to stoke the conflict between the factions to rid of Zodiark as the obstacle to their plans by fomenting a course of action by the Convocation that would concern those paranoid of Zodiark's power, only for the enervation aspect to work unpredictably and result in the Sundering.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

The game did a very awkward take with the a world of suffering is better than a world without as people might get bored with out suffering

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TBH I don't think they even made that point. It's more a message that you need a mixture of both, because the first two worlds, while they annihilated a specific issue, nonetheless were pretty dystopian in other respects, and seem characterised by immense suffering. Meanwhile, by all accounts the dragons had a more or less blissful star but it was subjected to senseless destruction outside of their own control and on a scale they could not come back from without fleeing it. Senseless destruction that no hopium could undo. I think the game is very poorly and awkwardly trying to make the point of being able to maintain hope even in the face of extreme despair (as the answer to Hermes's own nihilistic mentality), but where it fails IMO is trying to brush aside any and all collective attempts at formulating a purpose, in showing e.g. Y'shtola just brushing aside a problem the Ea faced - not that she'd ever run up against it in a meaningful way. The ancients themselves broadly fell under the umbrella of societies with a collective purpose, but nonetheless retained their own individual goals. On the other end of the spectrum you had Zenos; his goal is self-authored, but for all the strength he has, it ends up meaning very little in the end as he is a husk of an individual, so it's clear that individualistic formulation of a purpose can also be taken too far and become empty.

Nonetheless, none of that would suffice on its own to condemn the ancients, because they resolved to save their star and sacrificed to do so by bringing into being Zodiark, to both shield and restore the star. All the nonsense about time travel and the Plenty is required, in my view, because the ancients had yet to succumb to the fate of the Plenty, and given their inherent love for their star, would likely adjust as necessary if they knew of this issue and the threat it posed to them as a civilisation. Thus the time travel gives Venat a potential roadmap with which she can damn her people for not responding to her liking in terms of avoiding the fate of the world described in a few lines from Meteion's report, and not be painted outright as a villain. Although I think the recent Q&A puts that in a rather more questionable position.

Considering how readily the Convocation seemed to shut out anyone who was not in full support of their plans (It's mentioned that "traitors" like Azem were stricken from their records/history), I could've seen them reasonably disregarding anything such dissidents would've had to say, even if it entailed something like a critical flaw with their plan that risked the star's safety and their Zodiark tempering could've been used as a further reason for any cries of protest to have been falling on deaf ears.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Considering how readily the Convocation seemed to shut out anyone who was not in full support of their plans (It's mentioned that "traitors" like Azem were stricken from their records/history), I could've seen them reasonably disregarding anything such dissidents would've had to say, even if it entailed something like a critical flaw with their plan that risked the star's safety and their Zodiark tempering could've been used as a further reason for any cries of protest to have been falling on deaf ears.

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I remember a lot of speculation during ShB about the tempering, and that it possibly effected the WoL... which a lot of people really, really did not like. Personally would have found it interesting if both sides tragically had their free will restricted... certainly would explain my own WoL nodding and smiling with blank stares and hardly being given a variety of dialogue choices. If I had to be a bit cynical, that reaction might be why tempering in general got downplayed in the patches and also gained a 'cure', and why the Blessing of Light became a traveller's ward.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Considering how readily the Convocation seemed to shut out anyone who was not in full support of their plans (It's mentioned that "traitors" like Azem were stricken from their records/history), I could've seen them reasonably disregarding anything such dissidents would've had to say, even if it entailed something like a critical flaw with their plan that risked the star's safety and their Zodiark tempering could've been used as a further reason for any cries of protest to have been falling on deaf ears.

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It depends on what point you were taking as given. You could perhaps have written such a story prior to 5.3, but I think post-5.3 it's harder to sustain it. Azem ultimately abandoned them in their hour of need, in a manner which was unprecedented, so I can understand their reaction to that being such as it was. My guess at the time as to why that was, was that they wanted to find a way to directly address the cause (perhaps futile), to avoid all the sacrifice, which I think originally the Convocation itself would've wanted to avoid. Just abandoning them for what might appear to be a capricious, uncertain plan, for example, would certainly warrant a harsh response.

The tempering could've been a possible route (not one I'd prefer but putting that aside), if they'd not then gone and had the Convocation itself be divided, as per Elidibus's dialogue in SOS in the FR version (at the least - might be in some others too.) Ultimately, with all the effort SHB put into underscoring that light isn't the same as good or darkness the same as evil, I'd have considered it somewhat poor form on their part to then go make Zodiark a big bad in a different way, unless it was something specific to primals which they were willing to extend to both. Hence my preference to shift the blame to an ancient (and possibly, otherworldly) cause of the Final Days, which I was hoping the Telophoroi was hinting at... but apparently not. :p

It's mostly the whole revival scheme that always struck me as a bit outlandish given how adamant the story/lore has been about resurrection being impossible.

Even Elidibus was unable to be returned to the Convocation in the truest sense, with them instead receiving a primal approximation. If Zodiark couldn't fully restore a single Ancient, it would stand to reason that the others brought back would similarly not really be themselves and having a whole slew of primal-like entities could've been...less then desirable, assuming the actual act of restoration didn't pose problems in its own right given that it entailed Zodiark giving up the myriad Ancient souls comprising his being to replace them with other lives.

On that point I agree, the revival scheme in and of itself could've been positioned that way. Elidibus himself being the heart makes him an outlier, but it had crossed my mind that it could provide excellent fodder for an instigator along the lines I mentioned to convince the Convocation to undertake a scheme which such an instigator could reasonably expect to lead to conflict with a faction already spooked by Zodiark. Even if the plan could work due to Zodiark's broad range of powers (plus having the lord of the Underworld amongst them), the fact that it would cause conflict might've sufficed.

With the lore they actually went with in mind, I think that part of their plan should at the very least have been delayed or altered (i.e. once Meteion is gone, put Zodiark to rest and release the souls in him), but I say that as the player with more knowledge than they were given, so for that to happen they'd need to be provided with compelling evidence to delay it... but alas. :`)

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

I hope it's not too late to leave my two cents here.

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Not at all, in fact, I've seen more people recently say since they've had time to digest the story they see the flaws in it and we may see more of that once NG+ is added.

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Second only in body count to Hermes. She allows my friends to die, allows one to suffer for millennia and bloody his hands, she kills my original self. She’s unforgivable and I’m glad she can never return. She doesn’t deserve to.

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I honestly don't understand why more people don't have a problem with this, but I also view the sundering as a violent act and for my Azem it would have been non-consensual. Her being permanently gone is a small karmic justice. I'm still in disbelief that they turned an antagonist to the Ancients into a heroine. I wonder if Ishikawa will ever do any interviews addressing this.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

certainly would explain my own WoL nodding and smiling with blank stares and hardly being given a variety of dialogue choices.

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I figured we wouldn't be tempered because people would feel like their WoL was robbed of free will (despite that having always been the case), but EW reverted back to ARR levels of a lobotomized WoL. It reminded me of Minfilia. I hated her character, but all the NPCs loved her and my WoL could only ever express love for her. Same thing with Venat.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It's mostly the whole revival scheme that always struck me as a bit outlandish given how adamant the story/lore has been about resurrection being impossible.

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I had the same reservations, but after they made it clear the souls were trapped within Zodiark I felt the plan had more validity. Given a core part of their culture was that they return to the star, those who selflessly sacrificed themselves were being denied that and they needed to be released.