As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

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I have never actually seen this in a levelling dungeon. I have seen it in end game dungeons, but if anyone ever berates a first time healer who is levelling, they have to deal with me. I have however seen a lot of lazy healers in dungeons, who feel that the content is so easy that they can watch netflix while idling. I don't think that many people in this thread are saying "I hate healers who have never healed and are learning in levelling dungeons", they are trying to address a real issue within the core of the game, which is player complacency, and I feel the devs have done a horrible job of addressing it (such as making dungeons painfully easy to heal)

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

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I would count you lucky then, because while it's not constant, it's far from uncommon (or maybe I'm just unlucky. =P ). Sorry if I was kind of off topic. It just caught my interest because those people sound awful similar to some of what I've read in this thread (except much ruder), so I couldn't resist poking around to see if this is the general attitude to expect (in which case, F heals, I'll stick with my support DPS and be happier not to face the abuse lol).

I do understand the lazy healers gripe. Goodness knows I end up cleaning up after them enough with Res, I just thought I'd bring up a different side to the discussion that I didn't see people mentioning, or more likely they just consider it a different issue all together, but then I forgot I suck at explaining and just confuse everyone. @_@

The other day in Novice Network someone came out and said if healers aren't DPSing then they are Leeches. And many were quick to slurped that garbage up.
One of them went so far as to say "not knowing how to DPS as a healer is as bad as DPS not knowing how to AoE". NO! It's no where near that because damage is never the healer's job, damage is the DPS's job, and I can't even find anymore better DPS than the increasing number of DPS players playing heals for pretend when it's only because it's to easily cheese DPS requirements that THEY, the healers, were NEVER considered in. And the problem grew, festered and perpetuated thanks to Gordias Savage and SE's poor job at handling this.

How poor?
- Excessively obnoxious/disjointing controls that get in the way of DPS doing their best for an illusion of a challenge. So instead let's find a simpler, faster solution, until the DPS are up to the job, which they never have cause, why do that when they can rely on some extra hand holding by the healers.
- Making enemies excessively cast long AoEs, which hurts DPS's ability to fight and helps give raise to Healer DPS.
- Giving healers more damaging spells. They could have added traits or more unique spells but NOPE, just 2~3 spells with similar effects to the other healer, and more damaging spells.
- Not applying the Vitality Tank rework sooner, because of course those dungeons including Gordias accommodated for possibility of squishy STR tanks being there.
- Rarely a mechanic only the healer can fix. Too many healing+DPS hybrid mechanics: break this thing to stop it from peppering the party with weak AoEs.
- Too many avoidable AoEs. Guess how much damage the enemy is doing while casting and missing. If you guessed Zero then you are correct!
- Lowering the accuracy caps. Like seriously this would have helped put a stop to this, because it demeans removing accuracy from all of the HW healing gear to a degree. It may not have been clear at first but it was foreseeable.
- Little communication with stats and left too much up to the player to interpret, when clearly there was a direction the devs wanted this NOT to go. I mean now I got people lying about what the dev's said about their stance on healer DPS. FACTS you can easily look up in their forums.
- Overtuning Gordias Savage and the failed intention behind it. On week 1 it was impossible for anyone to be decked out in normal gordian gear, but it didn't stop World's First from finding a way to cheese the design. Many players then have relied on and eventually believed that healer DPS is a requirement ever since Week 1 of Gordias Savage, even now when clearly Creator Savage is made to be significantly easier, people still believe it. Instead of getting better and more importantly actually geared.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

One of them went so far as to say "not knowing how to DPS as a healer is as bad as DPS not knowing how to AoE". NO! It's no where near that because damage is never the healer's job, damage is the DPS's job

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This is a really poor argument. I understand the sentiment, but I already answered this:

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The thread is asking "As a healer, what am I supposed to be doing?" and the answer to that is "whatever is the most important responsibility on each GCD", which is a responsibility shared across all roles (yes tanks sometimes heal, DPS sometimes manage enmity, and all three deal damage). Is everyone at full health? Then you should be DPSing, overhealing and idling helps nobody, just like as a tank I can ask myself "Do I have a sufficient lead in enmity?" if the answer is yes then I should be using my DPS rotations.

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No role is fixed into their archetype in an isolated environment,and the mark of a competent (i.e. should be standard practice) tank/healer/dps is to utilise all of the tools at their disposal, regardless if they are concrete within their role, to help the team progress. Healers are supposed to DPS if that is the most important thing for them to do at the time.

Uh, it's true that 0 DPS healers are leeches. On Reddit there was a post by a Scholar who literally did nothing but /follow while her fairy healed the entire Sastasha run. There is literally no term that describes that type of player more accurately than "leech".

They will always be votekicked from my parties, nobody gets a free ride off my efforts.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

. . .the mark of a competent tank/healer/dps is to utilise all of the tools at their disposal. . .

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That's a poor counter.
1) DPS's job is to pump out as much damage as they can first and foremost. Knowing how to AoE is part of their job to deal damage. If the fights are slow, then it is because the DPS aren't good, not because the healer wasn't pulling half of what one of them can possibly do. Wanna watch a summoner fail to attack more than one enemy at a time when they can easily do it? Healer's job first and foremost is to keep players alive; melting everything with holy doesn't change that. Making an argument against it is like saying, "no, healer should DPS 100% of the time" then WHY are you a healer!?

2) The types who love to use THIS argument. You argue that to be competent you gotta use ALL the tools, but will push for more damage. Tanks got additional means to sustain themselves and damage abilities for when they are OT, but "nobody" likes it when the Paladin takes the time to sustain themselves by making active use of both clemency and stoneskin, because that gets in the way of more damage, and boy I bet shield bash is nowhere near the top of your list of attacks. Healers have better things to do if healing is not required, either mitigate the damage the party/tank takes or take advantage of cleric stance, which was added just to make solo content NOT a complete slog, however I bet you will praise them for being pretend DPS even if they straight up don't do the DPS or healing part right and shun them if they instead opt to mitigate damage with their barriers. In the end, there is no gotta use all the tools to be good, it's just gotta deal damage to be good.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

Uh, it's true that 0 DPS healers are leeches. On Reddit there was a post by a Scholar who literally did nothing but /follow while her fairy healed the entire Sastasha run. There is literally no term that describes that type of player more accurately than "leech".

They will always be votekicked from my parties, nobody gets a free ride off my efforts.

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And you don't have anymore information about that SCH in question? That she was new or was in raid gear, anything? Did the person even confront her or did they just went with it, pulled little and THEN complained? Being a leech means we could have done this without you, you are literally dragging us down even if we are winning AND that you intentionally did nothing, knowing that you could have done something. But frankly healing is extremely easy, and using Sastasha of all things is weak. Summoning carry fairy in an extremely easy place and following idling by isn't exactly enough to label someone as a leech, lazy for sure, but not something this extreme.

Here's a better example: Aery, tanks in STR gear and uses no CDs and flashes only twice, then Alt-tabs to watch Youtube in every pull not attacking a thing. He loses threat and before the first boss I confront him, and the idiot just spills the beans, DEMANDED I do my job as a healer while he gets to sit there and maintain zero aggro. I let him die twice and healed only the DPS who did his job better than he did before we finally kicked him. THAT is a leech, without a doubt.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

That's a poor counter.
1) DPS's job is to pump out as much damage as they can first and foremost. Knowing how to AoE is part of their job to deal damage. If the fights are slow, then it is because the DPS aren't good, not because the healer wasn't pulling half of what one of them can possibly do. Wanna watch a summoner fail to attack more than one enemy at a time when they can easily do it? Healer's job first and foremost is to keep players alive; melting everything with holy doesn't change that. Making an argument against it is like saying, "no, healer should DPS 100% of the time" then WHY are you a healer!?

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No one here is indicating that healer's shoulder DPS 100% of the time. What they are trying to encourage is always be using your GCDs as often as possible as this leads to higher efficiency and optimized play. It's wasteful to spend GCDs in healing when the tank has taken only 100 damage and it's waste to sit there idling if your MP is full. So what's the most effective use of the healer kit in this scenario? You DPS.

Most people here realize the first priority of a healer is to ensure their party's health. Once that is achieved they begin to fill their GCDs with other abilities that help push the group to victory. This usually entails using their DPS abilities because it's the most direct way to contribute and there are a lack of non-combat utility tools overall in the game.

While I can understand the desire for a higher HPS requirement, take into mind that the current MP regeneration tools do very little to support a non-cleric stance play. If HPS requirements were so high you couldn't even afford 5 seconds to enter Cleric Stance most healers would be out of MP by the 4-5 minute mark and compositions would be forced to run double BRD / MCH / combination of both just to sustain the MP requirements. Higher HPS requirements would require the healer kits to be retooled and balanced to be suitable and sustainable which is a pretty sizable task. While I could see this shift occurring in the future don't expect it to be a quick change either.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

2) The types who love to use THIS argument. You argue that to be competent you gotta use ALL the tools, but will push for more damage. Tanks got additional means to sustain themselves and damage abilities for when they are OT, but "nobody" likes it when the Paladin takes the time to sustain themselves by making active use of both clemency and stoneskin, because that gets in the way of more damage, and boy I bet shield bash is nowhere near the top of your list of attacks. Healers have better things to do if healing is not required, either mitigate the damage the party/tank takes or take advantage of cleric stance, which was added just to make solo content NOT a complete slog, however I bet you will praise them for being pretend DPS even if they straight up don't do the DPS or healing part right and shun them if they instead opt to mitigate damage with their barriers. In the end, there is no gotta use all the tools to be good, it's just gotta deal damage to be good.

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I do feel it should go without saying that most people who realize how to make the most out of their tool kits will have the ability to compartmentalize which abilities are high usage abilities and which are niche usage abilities. Clemency, Shield Bash, Stoneskin (on PLD) are all situational abilities that, while not high on the priority level, when used effectively shows the players know what they're doing (IE, A11S healer is dead during Pyretic as the healer Photon goes out, PLD saves the still-standing healer via proper Clemency use). In fact when player's do NOT use these abilities because they are unnecessary at the time, it also shows a level of competency in their aptitude.

The same can be said for healers too. Why should the SCH be using Adlo when the single target damage can be healed with fairy use? You may as well optimizing for quicker encounter clear at that point and use the right abilities at the right time for maximum effect.

Again, most people will realize what marks a good healer and those revolve around maintain party health while maximizing their GCD usage. If you're being badgered for doing bad healing "because your DPS is low" but the party can't dodge stupid worth a crap, then you can just smirk and realize their ignorant in the ways of healing and carry on doing what you do best - playing a healer to the fullest.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

DPS's job is to pump out as much damage as they can first and foremost. Knowing how to AoE is part of their job to deal damage. If the fights are slow, then it is because the DPS aren't good, not because the healer wasn't pulling half of what one of them can possibly do. Wanna watch a summoner fail to attack more than one enemy at a time when they can easily do it? Healer's job first and foremost is to keep players alive; melting everything with holy doesn't change that. Making an argument against it is like saying, "no, healer should DPS 100% of the time" then WHY are you a healer!?

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I wasn't actually comparing healer DPS to DPS AOE, you will notice that I directly compare healer DPS to DPS managing enmity (quelling strikes, smokescreen etc). These skills are good for keeping enmity under control, something which traditionally is a tanks job. My point is that all roles are responsible in some form for all aspects of play, and as a team, the party must work together to overcome the challenges dynamically. If you ignore DPS because "dur hur im a healer" then you ignore this fact of play. Do you also ignore shroud of saints because enmity management isn't your job?

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

2) The types who love to use THIS argument. You argue that to be competent you gotta use ALL the tools, but will push for more damage. Tanks got additional means to sustain themselves and damage abilities for when they are OT, but "nobody" likes it when the Paladin takes the time to sustain themselves by making active use of both clemency and stoneskin, because that gets in the way of more damage, and boy I bet shield bash is nowhere near the top of your list of attacks. Healers have better things to do if healing is not required, either mitigate the damage the party/tank takes or take advantage of cleric stance, which was added just to make solo content NOT a complete slog, however I bet you will praise them for being pretend DPS even if they straight up don't do the DPS or healing part right and shun them if they instead opt to mitigate damage with their barriers. In the end, there is no gotta use all the tools to be good, it's just gotta deal damage to be good.

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What? Do you even have any understanding of how to play PLD? People dont clemency/stoneskin because it is sub-optimal, the better argument is tanks who don't use their standard mitigation cooldowns and just does their 1, 2, 3 enmity combo rather than any DPS combo or DoTs (or dark arts etc.).

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

And you don't have anymore information about that SCH in question? That she was new or was in raid gear, anything? Did the person even confront her or did they just went with it, pulled little and THEN complained? Being a leech means we could have done this without you, you are literally dragging us down even if we are winning AND that you intentionally did nothing, knowing that you could have done something. But frankly healing is extremely easy, and using Sastasha of all things is weak. Summoning carry fairy in an extremely easy place and following idling by isn't exactly enough to label someone as a leech, lazy for sure, but not something this extreme.

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If you're wasting my time by refusing to do more than the bare minimum, you are a leech. End of story. Don't have a clue why it's so difficult for you to understand how the game is designed.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

And I just think the blanket statement of "DPS or GTFO" in these threads encourages these people. Haven't seen many people cautioning players to not be dicks to people who are trying, but aren't necessarily up to the challenge yet.

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You haven't looked then.

Basically all of us who say Healers should DPS almost always make a point that it is a healers choice to not dps, they should not be treated poorly for it and while its inefficient, if they aren't comfortable with it than it is fine.

However lazy healers are a whole other story.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

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A week ago I was doing a run of Tam-tara for Leveling. I was WAR, I got a SCH, DRG and BLM. I thought "Great this will be a quick and easy run, basically 3 DPS". The SCH however just spammed Physick + Embrace the whole time. Even though I rarely needed to be healed. When she wasn't healing she was running around and jumping. Her weapon was ilvl 250. After the first boss the DRG piped up and said "You could help DPS. It'd make this go a little faster."

The SCH immediately left.

She literally wanted to do nothing, and when her contributing to damage was brought up she decided it would be better to take the penalty and leave the dungeon rather than suck it up, stop being lazy, and to DPS. This is a leech.