We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

gil serves no purpose in this game except a self made score board. .

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This is also another problem with the game. FFXIV could have more player investestment (no pun intended) if the in-game economy was more player-driven and the currency would function more as a medium of exchange for goods and services with other players. The game does somewhat loosely have that but there could be room for improvement.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I mean, fine? Compare Apples to Oranges if you feel this absolute need to, but they are fundamentally very different as you move down the classification chain into more specific features.

The real problem occurs when you try to change an Apple into an Orange...they are so different at the core that you are basically breaking both to try to change one into the other. Just like your ideas would break the balance of this game if they simply implemented it without changing the core of the game first.

If you do manage to completely overhaul an Apple and change it into an Orange then all the people who paid for Apples are simply going to leave, just like your example of when Runescape tried to change the core of its gameplay. You would just be doing the exact same thing to FFXIV.

Sure, some people who love Oranges might show up, but how many would that be? Just you? I haven't really seen anyone else ask for this game to be like Runescape. You really think they would change the core of the game for a minority and risk driving away the majority?

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Just because a small part of A get put into B, does not turn B into A.

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Originally Posted by Edax

In Red Dead Redemption, you could ride a wild horse and tame it. In Breath of the Wild, you could do the same. This mechanic was not in any previous Legend of Zelda game. Breath of the Wild did not become Red Dead Redemption, and I daresay BotW was better for adopting the new mechanic. It's all a matter of debate what mechanics can be adopted between game, but we shouldn't dismiss the debate simply for existing.

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But I do recognize some people like A just fine and want it as is. And there is always the danger that change will be for the worse. I accept that.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Just because a small part of A get put into B, does not turn B into A.

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That's...not really the point I made. A problem can occur if B cannot accept A without breaking.

The design of fights will become unbalanced if you make the best gear of the tier easier to obtain and more available. So then that needs to be changed, then another thing needs to be changed because of that and on and on. It has a domino effect.

You seem to be under the impression that you can simply put A into B and the game design will just still work as is. Not likely.

It would break the structure of gear progression which then affects the fights themselves because they will lose depth/difficulty since you can simply get max item level immediately and removes the need to wait for more gear to progress easier, which then affect the longevity of the content, and so on and so on.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Okay really? I'm suppose to take "This also isn't Runescape, this is XIV" literally then? You literally thought I had no idea that FFXIV wasn't Runescape and you felt the need to remind me? I'm not putting words in your mouth, you literally explained to me that XIV is not Runescape.
Comparing apples to oranges? WHAT'S WRONG WITH COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES? Who said you can't compare fruit? So an apple is not an orange, what a brilliant observation! Thank you for reminding me. And I say it is a good point to compare something that is different from something else.

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?????

Are you saying that you should be able to look at FFXIV (an apple) and RuneScape (an orange), and say they should be the same thing? Or that they could be morphed into the same thing? Because that’s the message that I’m getting from your posts. It sounds like, to me, that you’re asking for the apple here to basically be an orange... but you still want call it an apple. At that point, it’s not an apple anymore, nor an orange—it’s an “apprange”... or an “orangle”.

Themepark MMOs and Sandbox MMOs are two separate subgenres of MMOs. They are not fundamentally designed in a similar fashion. You wanting one to basically take characteristics from the other, but still be “the same” just doesn’t work. Again, you want your apple to be like an orange, but you still want to call it an apple.

I want to bring up your own previous example regarding RuneScape: when you wrote about when the fundamental systems in place in the game itself began to change to cater to more mainstream systems, that there was pushback from the playerbase about it; and how successful the old-school RuneScape release became. You would see the same amount of pushback from FFXIV players if the developers suddenly tried to turn their theme park into a sandbox.

And while there are concepts from other theme park-esque MMOs (e.g., WoW) that could work in FFXIV (e.g., Mythic+ dungeons) because the designs of the two games are similar (despite one being more difficult in terms of gameplay compared to the other), one also has to consider what people play this game for. I personally think Mythic+ would be a good addition to add life to the dungeons, as it’s content that is quickly forgotten down the line, and there are others that feel the same way, too. But other things simply would not sit well with this playerbase—e.g., what I said previously about how players do not think highly of those who buy clears/gear/parses from difficult content.



Also, check yourself on your condescension. Since you were so quick to call out other people for being mean to you with it.

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Originally Posted by Miste

The design of fights will become unbalanced if you make the best gear of the tier easier to obtain and more available. So then that needs to be changed, then another thing needs to be changed because of that and on and on. It has a domino effect.

You seem to be under the impression that you can simply put A into B and the game design will just still work as is. Not likely.

It would break the structure of gear progression which then affects the fights themselves because they will lose depth/difficulty since you can simply get max item level immediately and removes the need to wait for more gear to progress easier, which then affect the longevity of the content, and so on and so on.

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The gear does not necessarily need to be "easier" to obtain, but rather offer more pathways to obtain it. I can get that it might sound "easy" to must go to the MB so if I were to scrap that idea, then what would be so wrong if raid equivalent gear could be crafted with very rare materials? The progression would be intact, it would take some time to for a gatherer or crafter to obtain the necessary items, especially if the gathering/crafting system receive more development to reward the player for their effort?
If raid gear is hard to obtain, and the craft gear was hard to obtain, then the balance of the fights would still remain intact. Those willing to put the time and effort into raiding could receive the same reward as the those willing to put time and effort into obtaining rare materials. Crafting gear doesn't have to be easy. Would raiders truly give up raiding entirely if they could spend a weeks trying to get rare materials for a single piece of gear? I'm not so sure about that.

Maybe if the materials for the 370 crafted gear came from Savage. It would give pure raiders some decent income at least.

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Originally Posted by Edax

The gear does not necessarily need to be "easier" to obtain, but rather offer more pathways to obtain it. I can get that it might sound "easy" to must go to the MB so if I were to scrap that idea, then what would be so wrong if raid equivalent gear could be crafted with very rare materials? The progression would be intact, it would take some time to for a gatherer or crafter to obtain the necessary items, especially if the gathering/crafting system receive more development to reward the player for their effort?
If raid gear is hard to obtain, and the craft gear was hard to obtain, then the balance of the fights would still remain intact. Those willing to put the time and effort into raiding could receive the same reward as the those willing to put time and effort into obtaining rare materials. Crafting gear doesn't have to be easy. Would raiders truly give up raiding entirely if they could spend a weeks trying to get rare materials for a single piece of gear? I'm not so sure about that.

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Three important holes in this idea.

First - crafting and raiding are not mutually exclusive. People would just be pressured to progress both of these things now. I assume there would be some kind of weekly gating system (a la Savage) otherwise someone could nolife their way to BiS in X time.

Second - this is a self-sufficent way to get the best gear. This game is an MMO, if you can't pass or fail based on something other than your own merits when it comes to high end content it isn't truly an mmo, it's a singleplayer game with other people. If your crafting plan relies on other people to help you attain these materials I suppose this can be disregarded but I doubt it does.

Three - it's unbalanced. Right now you fight your way into top tier combat gear but there is no way to do the same and get the best crafting and gathering gear. I am 100% sure if there was a system like that implimented (turn in Savage books for HQ crafting gear for example) crafters and gatherers would throw a fit because it would crash the market for those items.

So which is it? Are you okay with me raiding my way to crafter BiS?

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Originally Posted by Edax

The gear does not necessarily need to be "easier" to obtain, but rather offer more pathways to obtain it.

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Saying “I want to be able to craft ‘the best gear’” is making “the best gear” easier to obtain. Yes, it’s adding another “pathway” to the gear, but it also automatically invalidates the other pathways because people will take the path of least resistance. You’re a perfect example of that.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I can get that it might sound "easy" to must go to the MB so if I were to scrap that idea, then what would be so wrong if raid equivalent gear could be crafted with very rare materials? The progression would be intact, it would take some time to for a gatherer or crafter to obtain the necessary items, especially if the gathering/crafting system receive more development to reward the player for their effort?

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Only if said rare materials that crafted said raid-equivalent gear dropped from raids or other challenging content that were equivalent to their value. It would be imbalanced to have them drop from dungeons, because dungeons take 15~20 minutes to complete, and require next to no effort or brainpower. Savage raids require both of those. Again, you’re asking for an easier option.

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Originally Posted by Edax

If raid gear is hard to obtain, and the craft gear was hard to obtain, then the balance of the fights would still remain intact.

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I disagree; see above.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Those willing to put the time and effort into raiding could receive the same reward as the those willing to put time and effort into obtaining rare materials. Crafting gear doesn't have to be easy. Would raiders truly give up raiding entirely if they could spend a weeks trying to get rare materials for a single piece of gear? I'm not so sure about that.

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Would you fall into this if they locked the mats behind battle content with incredibly low drop rates? That goes against your previously stated desires:

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Originally Posted by Edax

It's new content to experience. I don't hate raids and duties when I'm first experiencing them, I'm seeing new sights and seeing new content. But the cycle of repetition, of repeating duties and raids is that I don't find fun. You really have to commit to the repetition to see the rewards. I've killed Ex-Death like 30 times to get a certain set of Samurai gear for the glamour, but it was an aggravating experience. It was fun learning the fights of Deltascape at first, the requirements to actually get armor out of the fights is just something that kills the fun of it for me.

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Originally Posted by Edax

The gear does not necessarily need to be "easier" to obtain, but rather offer more pathways to obtain it. I can get that it might sound "easy" to must go to the MB so if I were to scrap that idea, then what would be so wrong if raid equivalent gear could be crafted with very rare materials? The progression would be intact, it would take some time to for a gatherer or crafter to obtain the necessary items, especially if the gathering/crafting system receive more development to reward the player for their effort?

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Wouldn't work here, gil is too easy to get and everyone can craft/gather everything.

In games where you can buy/craft high tier gear off the marketboard it's extremely hard to make enough money to be able to buy it. Then there's also the whole thing where people can only get 1 or 2 crafting professions good enough to craft it.

I wish crafted gear was decent in this game like how it is in Archeage but the whole economy just isn't set up for that sadly.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Saying “I want to be able to craft ‘the best gear’” is making “the best gear” easier to obtain. Yes, it’s adding another “pathway” to the gear, but it also automatically invalidates the other pathways because people will take the path of least resistance. You’re a perfect example of that.

Would you fall into this if they locked the mats behind battle content with incredibly low drop rates? That goes against your previously stated desires:

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I disagree with statement 1. I find bricklaying soothing in real life. I know many people would be bored to tears from such an activity. But this is part of the reason why I like crafting and gathering in general is most games over combat. I'll disagree that it's the "path of least resistance", it's an activity that only certain people will find fun. I believe people would choose the path of the most fun, not least resistance in a video game. If raiders aren't actually having fun and would rather grind rocks for weeks, then there's a more fundamental problem with the raiding content then. If it's not fun, SE is doing it wrong.

If the mats were spiritbond then yes it would defeat the purpose behind locking them behind battle content. Ideally these materials should be dropped via the gathering system. Maybe via the treasure hunting system.

29,999 views. I hope that means good luck