What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

K heres something that Will blow your mind. Asking someone Who has 480 gear and 3 tanks leveled to max along with such a healer to pull more isnt elitist, if you dont feel like hitting your godamn fcking cooldown should we ask SE to remove that as well? Fck it we removed aggro cause poor yous couldnt stand be asked to keep your aggro lets fcking go ahead and make Who ever has a tank stance invuln to dmg, its ff14 community nobody gives a shit to be challenged and it looks like pulling mobs is too challenging for them. You call someone asking you to play your job elitist scum, not someone Who told you you suck at it nor someone Who berated you for the dps, Just someone Who told you your ilvl is enough to pull 3 more mobs and hit an additional button other than 1 2 aoe combo. Fcking hell fck fck fck fuuuuck, i swear to god a New players not knowing stuff can learn they can pull 1 group at a time, a healer Who is new can ask to slow down and learn, but you cant be hiding your tail behind im learning forever when you got 300+ hours of experience and dismissing everyones plead to Use 1 button as fcking elitist scum that ruin the godamn game.

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You missed my point what i'm saying is when a good player falls into anger and complains about bad players and start memes to shame then, how is it surprising to see SE making tanking easier?? Ofc a new can learn, i was a joke when i started this game and now i completed e1s>e8s not too long ago as a gnb and drk. Sure tanking is not as difficult as before but i made some progress.
But when a bad player reacts negatively ater being told he plays wrong, getting salty isnt going to make things better. A LOT of players don't understand/don't care about that, they only generate fear and less tanks.
A bad player needs to improve their gameplay, i won't argue with that.
But salty players need to improve to counter bad player complains and avoid SE making everything easier. Learning bad players how to improve is easy most of the time, just stay calm, stay polite and don't let an angry idiot get to you. Even if you don't care, don't give them any room to complain lmao.

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Originally Posted by Juzjuzz

You missed my point what i'm saying is when a good player falls into anger and complains about bad players and start memes to shame then, how is it surprising to see SE making tanking easier?? Ofc a new can learn, i was a joke when i started this game and now i completed e1s>e8s not too long ago as a gnb and drk. Sure tanking is not as difficult as before but i made some progress.
But when a bad player reacts negatively ater being told he plays wrong, getting salty isnt going to make things better. A LOT of players don't understand/don't care about that, they only generate fear and less tanks.
A bad player needs to improve their gameplay, i won't argue with that.
But salty players need to improve to counter bad player complains and avoid SE making everything easier. Learning bad players how to improve is easy most of the time, just stay calm, stay polite and don't let an angry idiot get to you. Even if you don't care, don't give them any room to complain lmao.

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A bad player can rarely be reasoned with when he is bad not cause of lack of experience but cause of laziness. Even with the easier tanking there exist tanks Who cant aggro properly, be cause a bad player dont see wow tanking is easier i can improve he sees wow tanking is easier i can give even less shit than i did before. As for not giving room for bad players to complain forums are a monument to how that can never happen. What could have helped ease the burden of tanking for New players would have been making one tank job noob friendly with alot of safety measures and tools on their disposal, something that would be Hard to die with as a tank, like paladin but no instead they took away everything from every job and yes i also include healers and some dps like for example smn.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Its always someone elses fault, yes ofc.

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K, I'll bite back since you wanna be like that.

I'm sorry to be a major disappointment to you that I don't follow a herd mentality and do actually have a mind of my own and 100% of the time tell the truth on what I think and feel. So I'll say again, I enjoy tanking and it doesn't suck and I don't and wont share the opinion of others here who don't.

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

K, I'll bite back since you wanna be like that.

I'm sorry to be a major disappointment to you that I don't follow a herd mentality and do actually have a mind of my own and 100% of the time tell the truth on what I think and feel. So I'll say again, I enjoy tanking and it doesn't suck and I don't and wont share the opinion of others here who don't.

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Thank you and I agree completely.. This thread is mostly tank hating which is sad because the OP has become distorted with "tank sucks" mentality

If you don t wanna tank then don't while you dps are waiting in que all day ill be clearin my dailies, wt, raids and alliance...

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

K, I'll bite back since you wanna be like that.

I'm sorry to be a major disappointment to you that I don't follow a herd mentality and do actually have a mind of my own and 100% of the time tell the truth on what I think and feel. So I'll say again, I enjoy tanking and it doesn't suck and I don't and wont share the opinion of others here who don't.

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Look i understand im literally lashing out to every single thing, to long on the forums doesnt help i do feel like saying though that i have no problem with you opinion, what i do have is with the other portion of it saying that its somebodies elses fault when you dont enjoy it. Idk how many iterations youve seen but this is the least power full the tank have ever been. When an expansion before tanks could kill griefers they had tons of cross class abilities that could help New players actually and the job designs where far better and interesting. If anything imo healers control the pace of dungeons more than tanks rn.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Im going to go baised off of 7 different groups I have joined this expansion who were looking for a 'good tank' because either one of them quite or swapped roles due to complaints about tanking.
Also where do you get the 'removed stance dancing part'? I never mentioned that. Its the fact 3/4 Tanks Are Nearly Identical Copy/Paste Jobs you know... the BIGGEST complaint on these forums with the fact that what they copy/pasted is WAR or PLD with slight change to give them 'identity'.

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The problem with previous iterations of the tanks was that it was Warrior + Dark Knight. With Warrior being the favorite, but it was always WAR being the MT because it was just better at everything. Now that WAR got shafted this expansion (after 2 expansions of being king), naturally players will shift away from the tanking role because their dps got gutted. However as I said before, if you look at PF now, there are more groups looking for a dps or healer then a tank.

But it's interesting that you say "good" tank, I thought the job was braindead and that a tank could remain dead for a minute into a fight with no effect on the actual encounter.

Good players will always be in high demand, there is an actual balance amongst the tanks right now and from here they can improve the class identity. However, if you start with class identity as they tried at the start of ARR and HW there was no way to balance things out. PLD was stuck into the "supports the group" while warrior and DRK fell into the primary choices due to the raw damage their class identity dictated.
I mean, for a long period WAR/WAR was even preferred if you could skip LB.

So the balance atm is fine, good players are still able to excel at the role and new players can role into it with less trepidation. This is a good start! From here on out, they can work more on class identity into the next expansion.

Tanks identity aka gameplay and how they operates should always being the first priority when you design an job and balance always have to come on top of that and no the other way around, why? bcs if you make balance by making the gamplay almost the same with minor diferences then all jobs feel the same with little no varianc, when other jobs like the dps have really good diferences in how they operate the jobs hitting a vastly superior amount of player demogaphic playstyles, it's unfair.

Thats why despite the balance problems HW and SB where way superior in tank desing due how diverse they use to be in they gameplay outside of being far more complex so more fun to optimice, now if we talk about balance and tanks capabilitys thats always can be balanced by touching numbers or adding the same key effect to other tanks in key skills, the problem they didn't want to do that and now all tanks sucks in this too, practically you are choosing diferent branchs of the same base class with minnor diferences betwen them wich is a poor design over all and kill the purpose of have 4 jobs on the same damm role.

so don't fool yourself, if we don't complay they could even make the jobs way more similar next expansion, they didn't doubt on delete DRK and bring a new marauder branch this expansion when nobody asked for that, if there is a cheapest way to archive something they will follow it and thats why every expansions tanks have always a severe problem of some kind since they always go cheap with tanks (and healers).

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Originally Posted by shao32

Tanks identity aka gameplay and how they operates should always being the first priority when you design an job and balance always have to come on top of that and no the other way around, why? bcs if you make balance by making the gamplay almost the same with minor diferences then all jobs feel the same with little no varianc, when other jobs like the dps have really good diferences in how they operate the jobs hitting a vastly superior amount of player demogaphic playstyles, it's unfair.

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Ah yes, let's make warriors deal the most damage and have the most hp for class identity.

Surprise! Every static wants a Warrior!

Who do we take for an OT?

Well, there is the Dark Knight that has decent damage and are great against magic damage!
And then there is the Paladin that has the weakest damage output but hey! They have dIvInE vEiL!

All statics run War/DRK.

But hey, it's all in the name of class identity that the PLD doesn't deal the same damage as WAR or DRK because they have a shield!

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Originally Posted by shao32

Thats why despite the balance problems HW and SB where way superior in tank desing due how diverse they use to be in they gameplay outside of being far more complex so more fun to optimice, now if we talk about balance and tanks capabilitys thats always can be balanced by touching numbers or adding the same key effect to other tanks in key skills, the problem they didn't want to do that and now all tanks sucks in this too, practically you are choosing diferent branchs of the same base class with minnor diferences betwen them wich is a poor design over all and kill the purpose of have 4 jobs on the same damm role.

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Ye your right, optimizing was fun, if you were a warrior. WAR/WAR was a great duo for log runs. So much fun for the other tank jobs.

The biggest problem with the design of HW/SB was the absolute need to be able to execute the job well enough to maintain agro, on top of that you were also expected to drop your tank stance so you could dps freely. This was very difficult to balance for new players to ease into the role so most of them just didn't try. It's not accessible and it was way above the difficulty of dps or healers.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

Ah yes, let's make warriors deal the most damage and have the most hp for class identity.

Surprise! Every static wants a Warrior!

Who do we take for an OT?

Well, there is the Dark Knight that has decent damage and are great against magic damage!
And then there is the Paladin that has the weakest damage output but hey! They have dIvInE vEiL!

All statics run War/DRK.

But hey, it's all in the name of class identity that the PLD doesn't deal the same damage as WAR or DRK because they have a shield!

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nope you didn't understand me here, im talking about gameplay not overall performance numbers, for example WAR was always around fell cleave hit harder with preparing his burst windows and DRK was about cosntant manage his MP and priority uses of his resources, and now both are just unga bunga inner delirium desing with no variance whatsoever.

all tanks need to have similar damage ouput like now and how they did in SB last tier, have similar mitigation potential and around the same utility, but that's doesnt mean every tank should be doing unga-bunga requiem inner delirium or have the same copy pasted mitigation tools and raid shields, here is the main diference.

if we look at SB last days and you give a WAR an single target suppor skill and DRK an aoe shield you will have a greatly balance roster with great diversity on how each job works, PLD working on his combos and RC, WAR working around inner release and deep gauge management, and DRK being the faster heavy resource management job.

i hope you undertand that gameplay identity/diversity doesnt translate to X job doing moar damage than others or having way more mitigation since you can have several jobs operating way to diferent and still archiving the same performance wich is what i personaly ask.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

Ye your right, optimizing was fun, if you were a warrior. WAR/WAR was a great duo for log runs. So much fun for the other tank jobs.

The biggest problem with the design of HW/SB was the absolute need to be able to execute the job well enough to maintain agro, on top of that you were also expected to drop your tank stance so you could dps freely. This was very difficult to balance for new players to ease into the role so most of them just didn't try. It's not accessible and it was way above the difficulty of dps or healers.

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thats a missconception, on past expansions any new player could just sit on tank stance and do his job perfectly well on the 99% of the game content with the sole exception of savage and ultimate, it wasn't hard to new players get it to it since agro management under tank stance was a joke as it's right now, the hard part comes when you have to start reducing tank stance usage and mid max the rest of the kit to archive the best performance of the job thats again just requested for savage and ultimate and even on savage you could keep being a tank stance baby on the first turns when you team overgear it.

im a veterant tank since 2.0 and i loved optimice my DRK resources to mid-max his usage along side of other things, at the same times friends of mine loved optimice inner release and berserk before the changes of 4.2 and PLD with his casted holy spirits, i loved run with DRK and WAR on dungeons due how complex they aoe rotations was so you was able to do so much things with it, ect ect, It wasn't something exclusive of WAR, and optimice the other jobs mechanics was a lot of fun, and now whit the exception of PLD who is the only one that get more complex this expansion in a personal way tanks are extremly boring and unrewarding to play due how not only they simplified the whole role mechanics but they personal Gameplay aswel.

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Originally Posted by shao32

nope you didn't understand me here, im talking about gameplay not overall performance numbers, example WAR was always around fell cleave hit harder with it preparing his burst windows and DRK was about cosntant manage his MP and priority uses of his resources and now both are just hunga bunga innder delirium desing with no variance whatsoever.

all tanks need to have similar damage ouput like now and how they did in SB last tier, have similar mitigation potential and around the same utility, but that's doesnt meant every tank should be doing unga-bunga requiem inner delirium or have the same copy pasted mitigation tools and raid shields, here is the main diference.

if we look at SB last days and you give a WAR an single target suppor skill and DRK a aoe shield and you will have a greatly balance roster with great diversity on how each job works, PLD working on his combos and RC, WAR working around inner release and deep gauge management, and DRK being the faster heavy resource management job.

i hope you undertand that gameplay identity/diversity doesnt translate to X job doing moar damage than others or having way more mitigation since you can have several jobs operating way to diferent and still archiving the same performance wich is what i personaly ask.



thats a missconception, on past expansions any new player could just sit on tank stance and do his job perfectly well on the 99% of the game content with the sole exception of savage and ultimate, it wasn't hard to new players get it to it since agro management under tank stance was a joke as it's right now, the hard part comes when you have to start reducing tank stance usage and mid max the rest of the kit to archive the best performance of the job thats again just requested for savage and ultimate and even on savage you could keep being a tank stance baby on the first turns when you team overgear it.

im a

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This. This is what sums it up. Aggro management was easy but pulling the min maxing was satisfying. Even though im not a tank main i tanked exs for my fc cause none else did, and that was what i liked.Not only that stance dancing was tied to war identity. The system wasnt overly complex but it gave responsibility to everyone, it gave satisfying min maxing to the good players, a reason for midcore players to improve their style, and it didnt affect those Who couldnt do it at all. The perfect parallel is that 1 Ball is easy to juggle alone but when you put it on top of the other 2 or 3 it made something complex and engaging without ruining the entrance point. But once again pfs made themselves think that if you cant do it i dont want you in my party, and the laziness of some People adding to the horus didnt help, so here we are.