The Real Problem with Parsers

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

This statement goes 2 ways, and then becomes a matter of math, what is more selfish wasting 1 persons time or wasting 4 peoples time (they are wasting their own time too) by not putting in any effort.

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Let's correct your math with a fuller situation in the context of my statement.

Which is more selfish? Wasting potentially half an hour of one person's time by negating their queue and making them wait again (if they even bother) or "wasting" an extra 10 minutes of time?

I could go into more hypothetical stretches by putting forward the situation that the person getting kicked only has an hour or two to play each day due to commitments in real life, which means that losing a half hour queue could either severely limit what else they can do (in the case of a couple hours, a lengthy queue plus the dungeon itself could end up being up to half of their play time) or completely negate them doing anything that day (in the case of one hour, a length queue plus the dungeon IS their day).

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Since HW I have yet to wait more than 15 minutes as a dps

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Whereas I've waited over that several times depending on the dungeon, as well as I know that other people have too. I suppose it depends on what you queue for.

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multiply that by 4 people

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Why would you multiply it by the number of people? If a run takes 30 minutes to complete instead of 20 minutes, it didn't take 60 minutes to complete. Each person lost 10 minutes, not 40.

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Should you still not kick him?

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AFK is a reason in the vote kick options.

Also, since you apparently missed/intentionally ignored this:

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People don't argue against parsers because people who auto-attack may get kicked. They argue against parsers because people who may be doing what they think is right may get kicked because some random person arbitrarily decides it's not good enough for them.

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

Then why are you arguing against parsers?

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I'm not. I'm stating SE's viewpoint and why the current arguments don't do anything to defeat that viewpoint, but rather the opposite. The more people who make personal attacks while talking about parsers and say they need them to kick people who might waste 10 minutes of their precious time, the more reason SE has to expect the community can't handle them.

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That was an experiment the guy did, after (very likely) having already noticed the exact behavior he showed off in the video many times over.

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Which means what to the 10 years of complaints of elitism from the game?

That's the thing you have to be careful about when trying to present someone presenting their personal experience compared to the whole of everyone's experience. In the 10 years that game has been going, how many runs have been completed? Now how many were in the video? I mean, I'm sure it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that literally millions of dungeon runs are done each year in that game. That video couldn't possibly contain even one millionth of the runs completed in the game's span. This is also operating under the assumption that every time he tried it, he got away with it, and that he isn't just choosing to not show you anything where he did get kicked.

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In my experience, as long as the content is actually getting cleared, most people won't care about your DPS. And by most, I mean more than 99%.

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So if we're using a handful of runs as proof of something, if I go into, say, 5 dungeon runs and only auto-attack and get kicked from each one, is that proof that this game is more toxic than WoW, where someone did a handful of runs and didn't get kicked?

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I could go into more hypothetical stretches by putting forward the situation that the person getting kicked only has an hour or two to play each day due to commitments in real life, which means that losing a half hour queue could either severely limit what else they can do (in the case of a couple hours, a lengthy queue plus the dungeon itself could end up being up to half of their play time) or completely negate them doing anything that day (in the case of one hour, a length queue plus the dungeon IS their day).

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You keep talking about being booted for making dungeons take a little longer, there's much more content to the game. People that care that much about speeding through a dungeon as fast as possible don't queue up for DF solo/partial group.

In your vast experience, how often have you seen someone kicked from a dungeon that wasn't afk, offline, being a jerk, or blamed for a wipe(s)?

You multiply by 4 because there are 4 people (I'm pretty sure I explained this) each wasting 10 minutes of time, you have just been disproven using math that 1 person being lazy/unwilling to try wastes more cumulative time than booting that 1 person will, there are times when dps queues are long but I've also had 20 minute tank queues and instant dps queues, best you can do here is go by the average. Which since 3.0 has been far shorter than 30 minute dps queues. And like I said if you want to throw in their queue time instead of just saying 10 minutes extra for dungeon x 4 vs 30 minute wait penalty you have to add EVERYONEs queue time, I had a few 20 minute tank queues, so let's add that arbitrary number in, I've also had 20+ healer queues, so that's 40 minutes now, had a 45 minute dps queue once, should we use that number?

Do you see how ridiculous you start to sound by saying that 1 persons time should be more valuable than 3 other peoples, ESPECIALLY when they are wasting their own time as well by underperforming?

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People don't argue against parsers because people who auto-attack may get kicked. They argue against parsers because people who may be doing what they think is right may get kicked because some random person arbitrarily decides it's not good enough for them.

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How are these people supposed to know what is right or wrong if they don't ask, aren't told or don't have some tool explicitly stating to them that they are performing X amount worse than other people in the same situation?

And like it has been stated by me, and tons of other people, no one is really going to be kicking anyone for pulling 800 when they could be pulling 1200, it's annoying but not kick worthy, it's when they start doing less dps than the healers/tanks/limit breaks on a boss fight that people question them. Or when trash pulls take so long that all my cooldowns are back up more than once throughout the pull (Had 4 blood prices on first pull of neverreap once, both dps were terrible though not undergeared and healer didn't cleric stance once, 30 minute lockout is better than dealing with that crap)

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

You keep talking about being booted for making dungeons take a little longer

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Because of examples like this:

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Originally Posted by hallena

im not gonna spend 30-35minutes in fractal so im kicking that person.

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People that care that much about speeding through a dungeon as fast as possible don't queue up for DF solo/partial group.

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Originally Posted by hallena

If you want a jolly cooperation slow run with no pressure, you make a premade

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In your vast experience, how often have you seen someone kicked from a dungeon that wasn't afk, offline, being a jerk, or blamed for a wipe(s)?

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Ask me that again when people can bring up parses without expecting they'll get reported just for mentioning them, so that it can be more accurate to the situation that would result from being able to do that. My experience is also biased in that I normally queue with at least one other DPS with me sometimes (more and more lately) being the second one, so there's no reason to kick for low DPS because it isn't happening.

And to preempt regarding the example: Yes, I'm aware that one person does not indicate everyone or even a majority, but if one exists, why couldn't others?

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

You multiply by 4 because there are 4 people

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And if a 24-man raid goes 10 minutes longer, you didn't spend 240 minutes in there.

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you have just been disproven using math

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Really bad math that makes such a bad argument that I'm not even sure if you're trying to be serious. If you get in a run at 9:00 and it takes 30 minutes, four people finish at 9:30. If someone queues for a run at 8:30 and they get in at 9:00 and get kicked at 9:10 then they requeue immediately and get in at 9:40 and then complete their run in 30 minutes, they finish at 10:10. Because the first group didn't want to finish at 9:30.

Ignoring the potential situation that the group that didn't want to take until 9:30 gets someone worse and takes until 9:30 or later anyways.

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Do you see how ridiculous you start to sound

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Says the person multiplying time spent by number of people. No. In fact, it's really hard for me to even remotely consider I might sound ridiculous compared to what you're trying to pull.

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don't have some tool explicitly stating to them that they are performing X amount worse than other people in the same situation?

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This is why you should have gone back and actually read my posts.

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And like it has been stated by me, and tons of other people, no one is really going to be kicking anyone for pulling 800 when they could be pulling 1200

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And like it has been stated by me and nobody has been able to do, prove it. You can make claims all day. You can make claims until the cows come home. You can make claims until 9.0 comes and the classes are all just merged into one uberclass that can tank, heal, and DPS all at the same time, negating the needs for groups. But unless you can prove it, that claim isn't worth a thing.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

because that's fearmongering. You can find one of just about anything in the world.

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And if SE doesn't want to put in parsers because of that fear, seeing even one person say things like that makes it that much harder to justify adding parsers.

The context of the quote right before you ripped it out of its context was players with savage gear being intentionally lazy, btw.

"but if one exists, why couldn't others?"

because that's fearmongering. You can find one of just about anything in the world.

I think both Aisela and Gorlio did a pretty good way of summing it up. On both sides you have the good and the bad, these two are naturally going to cross with each other.

You got the one side who will want to use the parsing to help make sure a run goes smooth or if there is someone who is not carrying their weight in a EX or Endgame like scenario. Hopefully in response the person takes the suggestions and tries to improve. Then you got the part where you see someone abuse it, they see a dungeon run where the person isn't performing as well as what they're use to seeing and get upset. In this scenario, with some exceptions, there's no real reason to get upset and kick someone over it unless you're someone who demands the perfect and has no flexibility or understanding for the other player.

I believe it is a good thing when used correctly, but it takes both sides the person who is eyeing that parsing number and the person(s) who are in the group of "you aren't doing as well as you should be..."

I wouldn't mind it, but I would only take so much from someone depending on the situation. When I decide to do some end-game stuff and someone goes "Your smn isn't putting out as much as it should" I'll discuss gear, rotations with you and if it gets that bad I'll accept the leave with a bit of pain..and work on it. Then you got the person who will just disgrace you and spit on you for not living up to their expectations in something as simple as Garuda HM or a 4 man dungeon. Of course there's things such as someone who just auto-attacks or sits there waiting for things to die..this can help.

End result, at least for me, it is a good tool if used for it's correct purpose and you're not dealing with a jerk from either end of the conversation. I got no fear of someone parsing me, but if I'm not living up to the expectations I expect guidance whether it's in my gear (high ilv or focus on more det / crit etc...) or if it's my rotation I need to work down. (I found it hard to remember to use Ruin III while under my trance as SMN for a while for example) in return it's my job as a player to work on my game and better myself so that I can assist in making the run as smooth as possible.

I'm sorry I think about everyone in the group and not just myself when I do the math, guess that makes me selfish according to your inability to define the word.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Ask me that again when people can bring up parses without expecting they'll get reported just for mentioning them, so that it can be more accurate to the situation that would result from being able to do that. My experience is also biased in that I normally queue with at least one other DPS with me sometimes (more and more lately) being the second one, so there's no reason to kick for low DPS because it isn't happening.

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So that's a no, you've never seen it happen?

Times the mighty straw-god of arguments has been summoned in this thread: 1 googolplex.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

So that's a no, you've never seen it happen?

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I have. I don't count how many times I've seen people kicked for different things, though.