I tank him in one place, facing away from the group, usually by the back wall of the area. For his frontal swing, I duck behind him and then run back. For his big swings I run way far away and then run back. He won't move too much doing that. It's just for the big ones he will start chasing me after finishing. If I am already heading his way, his movement is minimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
If your DPS buddies are ranged, they won't care too much whether or not you move him, but the close range melee fighters who need to use positionals for max dmg would end up chasing around a bunch trying to get to the right spot for their rotations.
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06-23-2018, 04:12 AMAmemeAmeklin
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06-23-2018, 12:34 PMIlenyaAdding on to this, if you know which one is going to be the full swing, just stun it. As long as people aren't stacking stuns too much, it'll be dead before the stun cap thing hits, and it keeps uptime going that would otherwise be wasted for melee.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin
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06-23-2018, 08:06 PMSannaRSadly most people don't take a stun as part of their tool kit. Or actually use it if they happen to be on pld. This goes for silences as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilenya
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06-23-2018, 09:44 PMTheMightyMollusk
A lot of people also don't know what can or can't be stunned, so either they don't bother, or they spam it on the wrong thing and diminishing returns kick in.
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06-23-2018, 11:09 PMMoroMurasaki
Had a PLD in o5s that refused to cover the AST (my co-healer, I was on WHM) during Remorse if ghost boxes were killed which they were quite often.
His excuse? He would miss out on Shield Swipe damage.
Know what hurts your damage more? One healer being OOM from dying and the other being damn close from repeated raising and carrying the brunt of the healing leading to a wipe.
There is a time and a place to care about finite optimization - o5s clear parties are not that time. -
06-23-2018, 11:53 PMMaekaPaladin Stun is not oGCD like leg sweep is, so that's a factor too.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk
Personally I feel nervous about trying to stun something that has too short of a cast. I don't remember how long Coincounter's death swing's cast is, but I know some shorter cast stuff, half of the time I don't even bother trying, I'd rather just move, because if he starts casting a split second after I used one attack and I'm in the middle of a GCD... well, that's 1-1.4s to wait for the GCD and THEN use the stun... that's cutting it close when you also factor in reaction time and any latency, even if you're doing 80ms or lower.
It's just too close for comfort and if you happen to be 0.1s too late, welp, sucks to be you.
Meanwhile, simply moving is almost guaranteed to work. -
06-24-2018, 12:14 AMMixt"BUT MUH PARSE!" strikes again.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
Stuff like this is usually due to players caring too much about looking good on FFlogs, to the detriment of actually keeping the party alive.
Though i have to ask, was Sure Cast not a thing here?
When i have to Cover someone for the knockback ghosts it's usually a Bard or Machinist since they have no knockback prevention of their own...Or the MT Warrior or Dark Knight. -
06-24-2018, 12:25 AMxkazh
Running Done Scaith and Wiping City because I want those minions!
Got DS just now and wow.
2 ASTs in our alliance, one puts on Noct sect and everyone starts getting ready. First sign of an issue: other AST and our RDM don't move at all. They only participate in the Deathgaze Hollow fight because of the new auto teleport option.
RDM is fine after this point, though I wasn't really concentrating on them - I had the AST on Focus target.
It took until Scáthach until they put a sect on - the good AST swapped to Diurnal and they finally used Noct (bad! you should know how to use BOTH sects!!!!!)
They basically also.. just didn't heal. Occasionaly an Aspected Helios or Benefic but ultimately, the good AST was solo healing our Alliance for the entire raid really.
The real kicker (two of them) was that our good AST did die during Scáthach. They did not get raised until we pointed out in party chat that our bad AST was just stood there - and they hardcasted raise as well so kept getting interrupted too.
The 2nd kicker was during Diabolos Hollow. He didn't move when he was targeted for the Crit buffed Shadethrust so immediately ate the floor. At this point our good AST just left him there because waste of MP to raise... but when DH was at around 15% ish, a lot of the other alliances were eating the floor - ours wasn't doing too bad and he said in alliance chat for healers to LB3 and asked for a raise. He hadn't spoken once this run at all. it just. really annoyed me, you can't just expect to contribute nothing to a run and then have our other healer waste her MP raising you when she's already having to solo heal the group. -
06-24-2018, 01:30 AMMoroMurasakiHe wanted to have Protect to be able to reapply it which I didn't think was odd since I've done that fight with a friend who does the same thing. It usually isn't an issue either but for some reason these dps were really set on killing every ghost box :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixt
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06-24-2018, 01:50 AMFrizzeI never que MSQ, and its rare that i que 50/60. I intermittenly que 70 and expert(maybe combined 3 runs a week? it fluctuates a little). I only que leveling when i see DPS as adventure in need(so you can imagine how often that is). Frontline is only when i need wolf marks for something, guildhests is a waste of time... and i never unlocked mentor. Havent really tried the new raid one much yet. The only ques i regularly do are alliance(i like the 24 man runs) and trials. I will run(and am prepared to explain the strats for any qualified fight if i have a min to think and remember) anything that comes up because i like to keep my karma balanced. Im not regularly qued in to help people clear all the content they need, so when i do get called on for whatever i roll with it. I also keep an eye out for PF groups of people asking for help for the same reason. When there isnt someone qued who needs the particular fight, the odds of getting the newest one are low because there are so many others that can be randomly picked. This weeks trials(that i remember) have been a thordan(bonus), tsuko(bonus), titan, and a menagerie(multi-bonus). The menagerie saw 5 members go over the edge on the first tidal wave(spawned from the back which clearly caught some off guard), but me a tank and a healer stayed up. Healer got the rest of the party back online, and we one-shotted. That one was honestly the hardest one all week, and it was basically smooth sailing after the rough open.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skivvy
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06-24-2018, 05:55 AMMavriasI mean the dps and your AST friend deserve more criticism than the PLD then.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
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06-24-2018, 06:09 AMBourne_EndeavorThe irony there is this results in a slower kill time, which has a far higher impact on your parse than Shield Swipe procs, which are negligible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixt
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06-24-2018, 07:02 AMMisteNo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrias
One of the healers should be taking Protect in case people die so they can recast it.
The healer that has Protect set has no room for Surecast since O5S needs Esuna as well (If you don't do the WAR skip, and some pugs don't do it...if you DO the WAR skip then no problem since both healers could drop Esuna for anything else...just yeah not all random PFs do this strat.)
You could make room for Surecast, but the healer who takes Protect would have to drop one of these: Largesse, Lucid Dreaming, or Swiftcast, and well those are all kinda good so it makes more sense to simply keep one ghost box alive like you're supposed to.
Esuna isn't 100% necessary....you can still heal through the Ghost without using Esuna on the debuff it gives you, but it will cause a lot of wasted MP since your heals are extremely nerfed due to the debuff. I've done it before when I've forgotten to set Esuna, but it is kinda dangerous and I've almost died so I don't recommend it really.
It makes no sense to force a healer to remove a good cross role ability to have Surecast just because people aren't just leaving one ghost up, it's not hard? Just don't touch the ghost with the light /shrug.
If you had a BRD/MCH in the group and the party kept killing the ghost boxes this wouldn't even be a question the PLD would have to save them since they can't even use knockback prevention. PLD should adjust to avoid a wipe obviously not worry about shield swipe...
I mean I love doing good DPS on healer, but if someone makes a mistake that I could fix and avoid people dying or possible wipe.... do I go "Nah, I am not saving them even though I could, cause...you know...MY PARSE!"?? Obviously a bad decision right? -
06-24-2018, 07:07 AMAlarayIf someone asks for something and that's the PLD's return, then the reason for even having the PLD there is low unless they were using cover elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrias
A decent PLD can cover and not miss a GCD. And it's better to use your utility if it's available and requested in time, than to let someone die because you couldn't be bothered.
It's different if he's using it elsewhere in the fight and it's not available, but the response written says he's not using it at all. Which is just being a bad player.
A parse doesn't mean anything if you're being a liability to your team in the process of getting it. -
06-24-2018, 08:47 AMMavriasQuote:
Originally Posted by Alaray
You realize that me saying that you should sooner be criticizing the dps for destroying the wall or the healer taking protect over surecast (dont get me wrong protect is nice but not necessary you can heal the fight without it easily) is not me excusing the PLD, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Miste
There are layers of mistakes that would lead to the healers death in this situation, not just "PLD didnt cover me" -
06-24-2018, 09:21 AMMisteYou realize you said "the DPS and the AST deserve more criticism than the PLD" right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrias
I don't agree for really obvious reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrias
The DPS definitely are doing things wrong since they keep killing all the ghosts this is true, but mistakes happen all you can do is keep telling them not to put the lights on the ghost box. They didn't say something like "Hey, I'm destroying them on purpose lul!" so its not like they are doing something on purpose to hold the group back. So keep trying or kick the DPS who can't understand it I guess?
The healer is simply doing their job by having one of them take Protect in order to recast it if anyone dies.
The PLD outright admitted "my own damage is more important than actually helping the group succeed by using everything I can to fix any issues that may arise."
I never said you are excusing the PLD /shrug so no idea where you got that from. As I said in the first sentence you said the healer deserves more criticism for just doing their job? Than a PLD actively admitting "I'm not helping because my damage is more important."
This seems like a really backwards mentality to have. Like I said if I played healer like that and let people die for my damage you can EASILY see how well that would go over.
Yes, I understand that, but if those mistakes happen then people should try to help the party if they have something that could fix a mistake. If they fail anyway? It's fine because at least they tried. Saying outright that you aren't even going to try to help is showing you have no sense of teamwork.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrias
If layers of mistakes lead to a DPS dying and I refuse to raise them because it interferes with my healer DPS.....yeah sounds bad doesn't it? -
06-24-2018, 10:23 AMMaeka
I don't know what's with the last couple days, but oi.
Been seeing some fail healers in lowbie dungeons lately. I've been trying to push my warrior to 30 and doing the daily Leveling Roulette on my 40s BLM and the fail.... is just staggering. I think at least 8 out of the last 10 healers were just ugh.
Now, okay, a couple of them were first-timer sprouts and I'm not going to say anything bad about that, but a few of them should have known better. I had a CNJ with glamours let me die on the 2nd boss of Thousand Maws because they were spamming Esuna instead of Cure, and standing there for 1-2 seconds between casts not doing anything (we killed him on the 2nd attempt only because we had an ACN who took it upon himself to spam Physick lol).
Then I ended up in Haukke Manor with an "OK" healer but fail DPS. Second Boss with the skeleton and the imp, I said in chat "kill imp first" .... what does the LNC do? He tunnels the skeleton the whole fight. Here I am, a 28 MRD without Defiance (because that requires WAR30) taking all kinds of damage, the healer has to spam Cures on me to keep me alive and they're not even trying to work with the team. So I switch targets (because it's obvious the LNC is dead-set on killing the skeleton first) and the other DPS, I forget what... a SMN maybe, decides he's going to tunnel the imp despite the fact everybody else is attacking the skeleton. Skeleton dies first and then finally, 30 seconds after that we finally knock the imp off. Yeesh.
Last boss, I tell them "gotta click on the lamps when they light up" .... nope. Only the healer and the SMN even bother, and so I'm like "I guess I gotta do it myself too" so we're all running around the room clicking lamps. LNC again decides to tunnel the boss regardless of what else is happening around them. Thankfully nobody died, but we had several close calls, I came to <100 HP twice in the fight and had to start kiting, thankfully Amadine is prone to deciding to cast spells if you run from her, which gave the healer barely enough time to land Cure2s on me before I dropped dead.
I decided "screw this crap" and went to 51-60 PotD because I was halfway to 30 at the end of that Haukke run. What do you know, I get stuck in a group with two ARCs and a BLM. For some weird reason, the BLM drops group after the first floor. We didn't really do anything seriously wrong, 'cept one of the ARCs pulled a couple extra mobs that weren't totally necessary. Nowhere near coming to a wipe.
Wound up getting a ROG as a replacement and it was for the most part smooth sailing. No deaths, boss went down like a baby like he always does.
Yeah, I think Imma take a break until tomorrow and hope for people who actually know what they're doing at least passably well.
At least now I finally have Defiance...
EDIT: Forgot to mention the fail Dzemael Darkhold group as my BLM's daily roulette today. Where to even start with that.... Returnee DRK tank, a NIN with a coliseum glamour (the bikini one), and a WHM. Tank was absolutely clueless about the crystals' buff and tanked mobs out in the open, causing a quick wipe in the first big room with the 8+ mobs in it. He lasted like 5 seconds, lol. Heck, me tanking the mobs in the crystal glow as a BLM lasted longer than that haha.
There was another almost-wipe because people decided to try and open the magitek terminals during battle in that room where you have to eat crystal explosions to do so. Yeah, two skeletons and a ghost + crystal boom boom = nah, not a great idea. Apparently they couldn't figure that out.
Last boss was very messy too but we managed. Barely. WHM thought it a good idea to stand on the front lines and eat the cleaves and apparently the NIN didn't believe in Limit Breaks, because I waited until 10% and I'm like "screw this, I'll use mine." -
06-24-2018, 01:18 PMMavriasQuote:
Originally Posted by Alaray
think of it in terms of a priority system or a flow chart.
the first way this situation could have been avoided? dps didnt break the wall
second way? Healer has and uses surecast
third way? pld uses cover
obviously we've established that the pld in this case was just selfish. but an example in which theres a brd/mch is it the pally's fault for expecting the healers to... use their skills or dps to do mechanics properly? -
06-24-2018, 04:59 PMAlarayQuote:
Originally Posted by Mavrias
If both healers have surecast, then there's no protect. That's a problem.
You don't need surecast 100 percent, but protect assists the entire party and is a useful ability even if you think it's worthless. (Yes, you can apply and remove before a pull but that's a bit dependent on if you trust people not to die to weird things. And people will generally die to weird things).
Yes, the DPS screwed the pooch and deserve blame for getting rid of the box (or the other healer if it was their light, or the OT if it was their light... the light isn't a DPS only mechanic, nor are the ghost tethers).
The AST didn't do anything incorrect, however, by assuming a box would be available and not taking Surecast. Other classes in this game need a box to survive, so there shouldn't be a reason for there not to be one provided a fight goes cleanly. (And even if a fight is going cleanly, if you have a PLD, they should absolutely be utilizing Cover)
Even IF the AST took Surecast, the PLD should absolutely still be using Cover during the fight.
My point being:
* The DPS weren't pointed out as being troublesome, so if there was a complaint it's to my understanding they weren't being difficult about it.
* The PLD isn't using Cover. Period. Because of shield swipe. That's just terrible gameplay that this thread exists to vent about. The PLD was asked to use it, and the response was "no, my shield swipes" which isn't even an issue if a PLD is a decent player (because it can be weaved and you won't miss it if you're quick). If the response was "it's not available for this mechanic, because I'm using it on x for Head On" sure, that's fair, the utility is being used where it's generally expected to be used. But if it's not being used at all, and the PLD can save someone's life with it provided they're told fast enough to do so, they absolutely should in order to help the team. And if they're asked to utilize it there, and they aren't using it at any other point, well shit, why not? It's free.
It'd be like if I was playing PLD and refused to use Reprisal, Veil, Intervention, Cover, etc... all because I can't hit my buttons good and I want that extra GCD at the cost of party survivability. It's selfish, it works against the actual goal of the content, and frankly if you can't use these things and still put out the DPS you want, you need to work on general mechanical gameplay before caring about FFlogs leaderboards.
In the scenario, the PLD is absolutely deserving of this criticism because... why on earth... are you not... utilizing Cover at all. -
06-24-2018, 05:08 PMMesarthim
This one is more of a "people are weird" story.
I got Xelphatol on tank in roulette with sprout dps. Entire dungeon was easy and smooth. So about that weird part? During the second balloon section I mark the first balloon for priority and we kill it, after which I bolt to the other side after establishing aggro on the enemies the first one spat out. I mark the second balloon and start attacking it but everyone else was focusing the mobs. Balloon moves away and after the mobs die all 3 of them start walking towards the airstone device.
Meanwhile I'm sitting there by myself waiting for the balloon to come back and the 3 enemies it spits out. I was fighting them solo for a solid 10-15 seconds by myself while my party was at the airstone device getting the popup message of "you need an airstone."
I don't think I've ever had that happen before. I'm like g.... guys? I don't remember directing you guys over there. -
06-24-2018, 05:47 PMAxHell
So I just came out of a Rabanastre run as an AST and it was horrible.
So in my alliance there were I think 2 newbies (also 3 RDM).
They die to mechanics in Mateus but that's fine, there's a first time for everything.
But here comes Hashmal. This is where things started to go wrong. Some people in all alliances kept staying in the bad stuff like dudes you have seen this mechanic all the time MOVE OUT OF IT ! Also our 3 RDM didn't help with the rezzing at all...
But then...you know what I'll let you see the chat log for yourself.
https://i.imgur.com/XZxUiYV.png
To clarify, during the tower phase with the sand balls, you have a stack mechanic for each alliance and one dude from another alliance was with us and had a stack.
And then as you can see, alliance B thought it would be fun to mock us for something we couldn't prevent.
I ate the 30 minutes penalty gladly because no sir I'm not dealing with that today -
06-24-2018, 09:40 PMSannaRIt's not just low level healers. It's Healers from Amdapor Keep Hard to the Vault that also seem to have problems. I had a healer struggle on me taking the 2 birds at the start of Amdapor Keep Hard to the 1st ochu gate blocker before the ochu even spawned more things. Even when i'd just take trash mob packs as they were I'd get healers that would forget to do anything to the point I'd have to use my oh crap button and still not get healed til I'd be taking damage again. Last week was so bad that it made me wish every run that I had been on one of my healers. Even the friend who jump potioned their whm and I forced them to come on a Dusk Vigil run seemed to do better than the ones I had been getting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
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06-24-2018, 11:45 PMMaeka
I can understand a lowbie healer "deer in the headlight" act, but c'mon, at Lv50+? *sigh* How did they even GET to 50? I bet they did PotD the whole way or something without ever having to actually be responsible for your team staying alive.
I get that healing is not for everybody and that's fine and all, but seriously if a player can't hack the job, they shouldn't Q up period. I'm not being elitist, but merely advocating that one judge themselves and not ruin 4-7 other players' days by being terrible at something they obviously can't handle.
You don't see me browsing savage raids on PF because I don't think I'd be able to do it and I'm not really "into" it either, so it's okay to not be skilled at a particular job/role. It's not OK to Q up despite not being able to perform good enough to pass the content. -
06-24-2018, 11:59 PMDBriggs304Eh...That sound a little elitist. Just a tad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
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06-25-2018, 12:56 AMMaekaLike I said, not elitist at all. Elitism is where a player who has a high amount of skill expects everybody else to perform at their level. Expecting someone to at least perform at a level to at least pass the content reasonably is not Elitism.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBriggs304
For example, if you drive a Ferrari and you show up on the highway expecting everybody to drive at 150MPH+, that's Elitism. However, if you drive on a highway with a 6 cylinder and you get mad at the guy in front of you only driving 35MPH because he's driving a 1950s 4-cylinder car that can't go any faster than that, that's not elitism; the guy has a car that's barely able to run and is holding everybody back. -
06-25-2018, 05:35 AMMavriasNew healers still gotta get a chance to learn though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
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06-25-2018, 06:05 AMMicahZerrshiaBy the time you are level 50, as they pointed out earlier, you are no longer "new". Heck by the time you are 40 you are not new. I understand everyone has a learning curve but if you don't know your job by the time you are 50 levels in the fault does not lie in everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrias
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06-25-2018, 06:09 AMMavriasJump potions are a thing, palace of the dead is a thing, fate farming is a thing. If someone is learning, theyre learning. I leveled 30-50 astro through palace of the dead. I had previous healer experience so i was fine inndungeons after that. Not everyone is like that. If youre not gonna offer help or constructive criticism, why are you complaining. Rookie is rookie regardless of what you think their skill should be at by 50.Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia
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06-25-2018, 06:33 AMMicahZerrshiaSomeone is touchy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrias
If you wanna jump into higher level content with no experience you are going to have to face the consequences of that. You cannot expect the playerbase as a whole to except you cannot perform in higher level content because you wanted to pay for your level instead of learning as you go.
Expecting everyone to conform to YOUR level of expertise is what elitism is, for both the skilled and the unskilled. I am not saying to git gud, I am saying that if you don't want to learn your job early on or at a pace that suits your native abilities, do not expect everyone to bend over and submit to your own lack of effort and expect the kicks and criticism that comes with it. Is that constructive enough for ya? -
06-25-2018, 07:34 AMAosha
Well then. Found a real infuriating healer in Snowcloak. (went in with my new summoner alt)
During the Yeti boss, he tried to tell me I was doing the boss wrong when I threw extra snowballs at the boss. We had 4 at max or mid size, I threw 2 at the boss for damage.
"Stop wasting them you can only do that when he does the big AoE learn your mechanics!"
I throw a third one, near killing the boss, and explains how they're *actually* used (both for stopping the AoE and extras for damage).
"No you only do it when he does big aoe"
Explain again, in more detail.
Get more "no only big aoe" in return... And you can guess how that continues...
/sigh -
06-25-2018, 08:34 AMMaeka^^Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia
This, pretty much.
I mean, if you are playing a Healer, or a Tank, then you know.... if you're not familiar with the role (let alone the class!), then common sense would tell you that you should practice that stuff in lower level dungeons before you jump into a Level 50 dungeon?
Yes, Jump Potions and PotD exist, but that doesn't mean you can't Q up for something like Tam-Tara or something just to make sure you got the basic concepts down before deciding that something like Amdapor Keep is where you ought to be trying to learn how to heal.
If a player decides not to put any kind of effort into learning how to actually play (which PotD does NOT teach you), and you jump into a dungeon, then you expect people to get irate with your lack of skill and knowledge of how to do your job. That's not Elitism on their part, it's a purposeful lack of effort on yours. -
06-25-2018, 09:35 AMtinythinker
Since the topic comes up in various forms and has been all over the last couple of pages of this thread, keep in mind that everyone has different standards for DF and DF roulettes. I am not always a fan of group content in this game because some people go into DF expecting a speed run every time. Others go in expecting people to have refined automatic responses to all mechanics if there is no bonus notice, or if someone has one or more job to 70. Others claim that they just want "some basic notion of the role", "an effort", and "a willingness to learn". Others go in expecting to be carried while using auto-follow.
I had two healer jobs to 60 when that was cap, and had all three healer jobs to 70 not long after Stormblood launched. At that time there was still lots of ARR content I hadn't done much of or even at all (still true when it comes to raids and a few other things). Even more stuff I hadn't (+ haven't) seen much of from Heavensward dungeons and trials (and none of the raids). But I had no newb bonus and some jobs to 70, so I'm going to be comfortable and good at all the "old stuff", right? Except I play on and off, which means I forget a lot while I'm away. I do try, and I know the basic of my jobs and roles, but I also know I often am not at the level other party member seem to want everyone to be at. *Especially* with SB stuff. I asked for lots of advice, tried to practice, and got burned out. So maybe I shoudn't be a healer. Haven't used those jobs in months. Needed a long break.
Instead, I've been slowly, casually taking damage dealers jobs to 50. Only Black Mage is left and it's at 46. Running ARR dungeons so much and so regularly, none of the under-50 dungeons make me nervous anymore as any damage dealing job (well, I haven't unlocked Samurai, as it starts at 50). I don't know the technical stuff well enough to tank those dungeons, but, in terms of running through them I can generally tell as a dps if I am doing OK and even if I am not my familiarity takes away the anxiety I used to have for some of them. I'm mulling whether to try to take those jobs up to 60 the same way. But I am in no rush to go back to SB stuff. Hopefully there is some damage dealer job I click with enough to be good at it at 70 so I don't feel like it's "heal or nothing" for new content.
I've seen plenty of players who appear, to me, to be clueless or inexperienced or selfish or lazy. I can't know for sure that they are. I do understand being bothered by people who don't know how to find the AoE button for heals or damage, or who only do AoE heals or only do single-target heals (maybe no heals at all!), or who don't know what hate is as a tank in a 60-something dungeon, or who use level 20 gear pieces in a level 50 dungeon. It sucks to be stuck with that, especially if that person is rude or doesn't reply. I get it. But we all have different standards for an acceptable run in DF, so I've found myself more than a couple of times being on the side of things that people might complain about here. I'm not against venting in threads like this (it can be very cathartic! :) ), or correcting people in the game/offering advice (good on you for being helpful). But from my position, if they could use the help, it doesn't hurt to offer it. You don't have to, of course, if you are busy or just don't feel like it. If you do and they don't want it, though, it doesn't help to tear into them, because another player who isn't sure of themselves might feel some of the heat you are launching at someone else :p
I try to do my job/role as well as I can with the level of time, interest, and ability I have in order to be considerate of others, but I will fall short of the expectations of some people. Others will fall short of mine. I am only responsible for me, though. I can't do anything about other people's expectations, knowledge, experience, ability, or effort. Nor can they do anything about mine. Just accept it, offer advice, or kick. That's it. That's what it comes down to. And it's DF -- there's a reason the roulettes have a big daily bonus. It's to make up for new and returning and forgetful players as well as those who don't try or who are just waaaaaaaay out there.
Try to have fun in your DF runs, and if something really stupid or annoying happens remember that at least you'll have a good story to share here. -
06-25-2018, 09:56 AMMaeka
@tinythinker: But you at least have a basic grasp of how to do your job, and you at least have a concern of "am I doing this okay?" and that's just not something I see in a healer who is only using half of their toolkit. When I am healing and somebody dies, the first thought that comes to my mind is "Did I do something wrong? Could I have used something to prevent that?"
If I were to show up to a dungeon and I'm only using half of my spells, I'd be like "I'm probably not doing this right... I have these buttons for a reason.. when should I be using them?" and I'd try to experiment.
Well, the only exception I can find is Cure3 on WHM. I've still not really understood when you should use Cure3 instead of Medica, lol. But that's just me. I can still heal just fine without it tho. But that's not like going to a dungeon and casting nothing but Cure and Cure2 and not even touching Medica even though your whole group is half dead.
You'd think at some point when people are dropping dead, such a healer would or should ask themselves "There's got to be a better way to do this..." instead of having to singularly heal people one by one.
I mean, if you go way back to Baby Ifrit, or heck, Halatali, or Lady Amandine, surely a healer would have seen the need for AoE healing? That's just me I guess.
Now obviously there's always gonna be lazy people and you can't cure laziness. But we're talking about people who want to do good but have no idea how. -
06-25-2018, 10:18 AMtinythinkerAgain, I can't speak for others in specific cases since I wasn't there and haven't talked to them. As for what I wrote some people may say, "Well, I would love to have you as a healer then, tiny" and maybe or maybe not when they see me in action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
My point isn't to excuse anything. It's that based on our experiences, desires, assumptions and so on we all have some notion in our head of what other people should know or do based on things like their item level, number of jobs to 70, no bonus, wearing glamour, sprout or no sprout, etc. Our assumptions and standards are not universal. Some people expect or demand more than us, other people expect or require less. If they're upset with us because they demand more, we complain. If they're upset with us or we're upset with them because their standard (or capacity) is less than our own, we complain. I am not suggesting who has reasonable or unreasonable standards. People can always discuss that. I've posted mine before.
In terms of people who want to get better seeming to be off track, the only reason to wonder why they haven't already learned something without asking them is to try to guess why they aren't performing better (which may or may not lead to talking about how well the game prepares players). Often that kind of second-hand speculation about "Why would(n't) they...?" results in labeling players clueless, lazy, level-skipper, etc. We probably won't know the reason "Why?", but we can kindly tell them "Hey, just to help, did you know...?" What they do with that is their choice, and we can't control it. If they ignore the advice or get upset, that is their issue to deal with, so we have to choose "put up with how they are playing" or "kick them". You would have to choose that for me if I wasn't up to your standards as well. Some players who found me lacking by their standards have chosen to kick me, others to insult me (yet put up with me by completing the run with me in the party), others just put up with me. When I have met or exceeded their standards, similar results -- comms, praise, or just accepted it with no comment.
As for Cure 3, I don't use it much because (no surprise) I'm not a cutting edge raider. But if your party is somewhat bunched or stacked, and everyone just took a huge hit (and more damage is coming in), it can be a lifesaver (especially if you get the overcure proc on Cure 2 which cuts the cost of Cure 3 in half). But for the content I do (ooooooold raids like Syrcus Tower, regular trials, and regular dungeons) it's usually a waste of a slot with Medica, Assize, and/or Plenary Indulgence.
EDIT: Technically in addition to "accept it" or "kick" people can take a penalty and leave, but if it's just one person perceived as blowing it then more often than not the answer is "kick". -
06-25-2018, 10:47 AMDaeriion_AeradiirCure 3 is more useful in raid/extreme/savage+ content when mechanics force you to stack up more, but the general premise is that Cure 3 is close to 2x as strong as medica for about 1.5x the cost, so you use it if your party is stacked close up and need a powerful heal dropped before more damage incomes and finishes them off instead of 2x medica. 90% of the content in the game doesn't really need the use of it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
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06-25-2018, 11:21 AMtinythinkerYup, it has it's place but it's very understandable if people aren't familiar with it. But for those who have trouble doing the math on the tool-tips (or who don't read them and assume 3 must be better because it's higher than 1 and 2), it can be a costly mistake to use it regularly. Kind of like "Fire 3 must be better than Fire 1 and 2." It makes sense why it might appear that way at a glance, but ends up being a needless mana drain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir
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06-25-2018, 12:20 PMKacho_Nacho
I have enjoyed reading the last two pages. They brought up some pretty good points.
What I'm taking away from this discussion is that you should make an effort to know your job. Also, one should not queue for content markedly above one's comfort level. There is plenty of opportunity to hone your skills before jumping into extreme content.
Good point about Cure 3. It's a niche spell; but, when you need it, it's fantastic. -
06-25-2018, 08:49 PMaestevalHow long does the sprout status last now?Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia
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06-25-2018, 09:36 PMFrizzeA lot longer then that. If i remember its up to royal menagerie, or something like 400 hours /played. Doesnt matter. Im a believer that if you que for the higher level group content then theres a certain minimum skill floor you should be able to meet(the basics of your job). In a group of friends you can be a thunder mage, an auto-attack tank, or whatever other ridiculous thing you want. The game doesnt do a great job of teaching everything(the hall of the intermediate idea thats been tossed around repeatedly would be a good start), but im not asking for everything from randoms. I dont need to see optimum dps rotations, but A rotation(rather then random buttons) is a good start. Not perfect healing, but some appropriate spells going out(is everyone hurting? aoe - is it just the tank? dont aoe). Tanks dont need ideal CD usage and perfect pulls/enmity, but they should do more then single target one guy without using any skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by aesteval
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06-25-2018, 10:33 PMSannaR
Lol Speaking of Cure 3 I had a whm one time miss use it. At 1st I hadn't noticed it as I was on a dps, but after the 2nd "wait I have no mp" slow downs I wondered why they were running out of mp so dang fast with a tank that was using their CDs and not making the low leveled dungeon a speed pull. Which made me watch them and that's how I learned that instead of using either Medica they'd use Cure 3 and only get the tank most of the time. So I did tell them to stop using it because it's range sucks for aoe but they didn't listen. Tank almost died on the last boss because the whm had no mp and also didn't know that lucid is also a mp refresh. Or have an ether on them. Thankfully the other dps or myself lbed the boss and we finished the run. Yes, it's also bad for mp management but there was so much to try to correct with that healer that I'd of been fine if they had just stopped trying to use it for aoe heals. We really do need an intermediate hall.