Let's redefine "damage taxes"

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Originally Posted by Mithron

So you're saying SAM is high on rDPS because they get Dancing Partner, but MCH doesn't get it so that's why they're so low. Looking at aDPS too, SAM is #1 and BLM is #2, but MCH is still #7. Why wouldn't MCH benefit as much for raid buffs as other jobs?

I know we're both in agreement MCH is in a rough spot and needs buffs, I'm just asking these things for better clarification on DPS as a whole for not only me but others who read and may not fully grasp rDPS/aDPS.

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Hold on I believe there's a misunderstanding there.
rDPS isn't impacted by Dance partner at all. For a pure DPS, rDPS and nDPS are the exact same value.
SAM is high on rDPS and close to other melees because that's how it should be. This way SAM contributes as much as DRG, MNK and NIN.

Dancer rDPS is high because they give dance partner to SAM. rDPS for a Dancer is simply all the DPS generated through buffs is reattributed to DNC.
SAM aDPS is crazy high because they're the perfect candidate for Dance Partner. aDPS is the value you see on the forbidden 3rd party.
Due to how rDPS functions, SAM, BLM and MCH rDPS wouldn't budge at all regardless of which buffs they get, because they provide none.

You can think of rDPS as your money + the money you lend to friends. You have less money in your pocket but your friends owe you money.
aDPS would be the opposite, it would count the money you have in your pocket regardless if you owe money or not.
nDPS just count the money you have in your pocket and deduct the money you owe to others.

Only minor correction to the above being aDPS filters out single target buffs like dance partner and AST cards, otherwise it would still be pDPS from StB and before.

Ah yes you're right.
aDPS removes Devilment / Standard Finish, Astrologian cards, and Left Eye.
It's still great to see how jobs scales with party wide buffs.

aDPS remains a great source to see which jobs is the best candidate for dance partner, left eye or cards.
Ironically, MCH is the last priority unless there's a skill/gear difference or a ranged card must be attributed.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Hold on I believe there's a misunderstanding there.
rDPS isn't impacted by Dance partner at all. For a pure DPS, rDPS and nDPS are the exact same value.
SAM is high on rDPS and close to other melees because that's how it should be. This way SAM contributes as much as DRG, MNK and NIN.

Dancer rDPS is high because they give dance partner to SAM. rDPS for a Dancer is simply all the DPS generated through buffs is reattributed to DNC.
SAM aDPS is crazy high because they're the perfect candidate for Dance Partner. aDPS is the value you see on the forbidden 3rd party.
Due to how rDPS functions, SAM, BLM and MCH rDPS wouldn't budge at all regardless of which buffs they get, because they provide none.

You can think of rDPS as your money + the money you lend to friends. You have less money in your pocket but your friends owe you money.
aDPS would be the opposite, it would count the money you have in your pocket regardless if you owe money or not.
nDPS just count the money you have in your pocket and deduct the money you owe to others.

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Exactly, this is my current understanding, only that aDPS also removes single target party buffs like AST cards as well. SAM should be high rDPS (just like every job should be within a very close percentage of each other ideally). So why isn't MCH when it offers no utility just like SAM? Why is BLM lower than all melee when it offers no utility just like SAM?

Also, why does rDPS and aDPS vary so widely with the tanks but not with SAM?

Rdps alone isn't a good measure for job balance because there are a lot of nuances when it comes to the different buffs and wether you bring a buff or not. Another misconception is thinking SAM doens't bring nothing to the fight but DRG or NIN do, when in fact they all bring the same thing: damage. In fact I would argue SAM is in a beter position in that regard since you have more control over the damage you bring when compared to NIN or DRG.

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Originally Posted by Foinhas

Rdps alone isn't a good measure for job balance because there are a lot of nuances when it comes to the different buffs and wether you bring a buff or not. Another misconception is thinking SAM doens't bring nothing to the fight but DRG or NIN do, when in fact they all bring the same thing: damage. In fact I would argue SAM is in a beter position in that regard since you have more control over the damage you bring when compared to NIN or DRG.

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Its not a misconception though...SAM only does dps. DRG and NIN bring buffs to the raid group.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

So why isn't MCH when it offers no utility just like SAM? Why is BLM lower than all melee when it offers no utility just like SAM?

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MCH due to ease, BLM is due to imbalance

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Originally Posted by FireMage

MCH due to ease, BLM is due to imbalance

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But DNC is objectively easier than MCH, less APM, skill cap is only keep buttons on cooldown. MCH has to ensure Hypercharge does not clip Drill/Air Anchor/Chainsaw timings or overflow Gaus Barrel/Richochets during Hypercharge, as well as ensuring they land every single weave during the fast GCD time. Why isn't DNC lower than MCH with your logic?

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Originally Posted by Mithron

But DNC is objectively easier than MCH, less APM, skill cap is only keep buttons on cooldown. MCH has to ensure Hypercharge does not clip Drill/Air Anchor/Chainsaw timings or overflow Gaus Barrel/Richochets during Hypercharge, as well as ensuring they land every single weave during the fast GCD time. Why isn't DNC lower than MCH with your logic?

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You clearly aren't aware of things like Closed Position changes. Also having to react to RNG. APM doesn't mean much when it's inflated

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Originally Posted by FireMage

You clearly aren't aware of things like Closed Position changes. Also having to react to RNG. APM doesn't mean much when it's inflated

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I literally play DNC when I want an easy braindead no thinking minimal chance of mistakes job. RNG is minimal on DNC, using Fan Dances properly is much less effort than MCH. They even get 3 dashes for mobility mistakes that MCH doesn't have. What Closed Position changes makes it more difficult to play than MCH specifically? I quite honestly find DNC to to be the easiest job to play in the game, even moreso than SMN because even SMN has clipping risks with 1-2s left on Bahamut/Phoenix, and managing Swiftcast Slipstream. Not much more, so an argument can be made for either. MCH is harder than both.