Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

Had a nightmare run of The Aery last night. I've been leveling WHM for shorter queue times, so I thought I was the problem when the tank started dropping over 1000 HP in one server tick on the first trash pull. After a wipe to trash and a nightmare of a time trying to keep this guy alive, I finally realized that I may not be the problem. Lo and behold, he was in mostly Ironworks gear. In The Aery.

Oh, and there was the Aurum Vale run where I accidentally used my text Raise macro on Coincounter. That was awkward.

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Originally Posted by Vlhana

Had a nightmare run of The Aery last night. I've been leveling WHM for shorter queue times, so I thought I was the problem when the tank started dropping over 1000 HP in one server tick on the first trash pull. After a wipe to trash and a nightmare of a time trying to keep this guy alive, I finally realized that I may not be the problem. Lo and behold, he was in mostly Ironworks gear. In The Aery.

Oh, and there was the Aurum Vale run where I accidentally used my text Raise macro on Coincounter. That was awkward.

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Ironworks is not that big of a problem in the Aery. In fact, I've tanked Ravana in full Ironworks and it was fine, and Ravana is IIRC 53 or 54, and Trial bosses are always harder than normal dungeon content.

Ironworks is equivalent to Lv54 gear (just slightly worse, but not heavily so), and the Aery is what again, 55?

You should look at his jewelry -- was he wearing Ironworks of Fending, or Ironworks of Striking? For awhile there, I know on forums and in game I heard a lot of talk about how tanks at endgame should be wearing DPS jewelry and I wouldn't be surprised if this guy heard that and put on a bunch of Striking stuff wherever he could because he heard that's what tanks "should do" (except for the fact, they were talking about endgame!).

That, or he was just unsynch'd. Was he pulling two groups at a time? No tank that is unsynch'd should be pulling two groups at a time unless he's well-geared.

EDIT: Also, what stance (if any) was he in? Sometimes on the first pull I forget to put up stance. I know a lot of tanks think they can muscle their way through the dungeon in DPS stance even at lower levels, even sometimes unsynch'd. They usually learn the hard way and switch rather quickly.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

First pull i can understand being thrown off a little by the arena shift. But im gonna agree with Maeka, by 50 a healer should have developed some sort of instinct of "People are dying? Time to heal harder". So if they were caught off guard and underhealed the first go, that second pull they should have been more on point then that. I dont know if anyone explained the "pop all cooldowns before being sucked in" part to make it easier, but this isnt some sort of tricky new healer mechanic. Its just a lot of arena wide attacks coming in short succession. Their previous 49 levels(plus all the other trials going through the 2.x patch series) should have been enough to prepare for that.

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So let me preface this by saying I love healing, have been a WHM main since my XI days, but I struggled something fierce when it came to leveling AST to 70. While it wasn't often by any means, I had some moments where I completely blanked mid-fight. I'm not sure if it was the juggling of cards, or perhaps the lack of almost-infinite MP like WHM, or just the unfamiliarity of the class, but yeah, I went full-on deer in headlights mode. lol. It was awful, and I caused some questionable wipes on the newer dungeons that I could breeze through on my WHM.

Now I'm the type of person that will always apologize if I do something stupid, so perhaps that helps to defuse things within the party, but I do know personally sometimes people can just blank when in a new situation. I was being the bad healer in those instances as my reflexes just didn't kick in, much like the healers in the story above, but I would have been equally annoyed had I received some snarky replies over a mistake that was remedied on the next attempt.

I suppose each person is different? I don't know. I've not tried AST yet, but with SCH, there's not really very many mechanics that I've run into yet (mine's 48) and the mechanics that are there are simply balancing between using Physick or Adlo and last thing they gave me was Succor.

The thing is, though, is that this wasn't "one attempt to remedy the problem" but "two more attempts to remedy the problem".

The healers had their theoretical "deer in headlight moment" during Wipe #1. And then they did the exact same thing during Wipe #2; they just stood there with their thumbs up their butts not healing dying people.

Maybe the AST has a lot of mechanics you must pay attention to, I don't know. But there was a SCH in the group too and you've got 3 spells to use in that situation -- Physick, Adloquium, and Succor (unless you get a 4th at 50, I don't know that yet). The entire raid is missing half of their health.

Do you...

1). Cast Physick?
2). Cast Adloquium?
3). Cast Succor? (<--obvious choice, IMO, if the raid is half-dead to cast the one AoE spell you have)
4). Stand there and do absolutely nothing while everybody drops dead around you.

I'm REALLY not trying to be snide here, but c'mon. Nobody was new to the duty, that I remember. Pretty sure there was no newbie bonus, because I typically watch for that in complicated fights like Chrysalis. If I see the newbie bonus, you better bet your PJs that I will be typing politely worded instructions before the battle starts. Especially on fights like Nabriales, Nidhogg, Moggle Mog, etc where 1-2 clueless people could easily wipe the whole raid.

But.... I didn't see the "Newbie" warning so I assumed peeps knew what to do or at least their memory would be refreshed as the fight progressed. Now, I did my usual "please remember to lb3 the tear" as I always do as a reminder so the DPS don't stare slackjawed at the tear while we all poison to death. Now the healers claimed they were new to the duty, but I think they meant "new to HEALING the duty". And I understand that, but again, half-dead raid and the remedy to such is universal to all duties.

Did trials on WHM. Got Ravana and I chose to abandon it after one run. It's not really that uncommon for there to be one wipe but it's what happened during that one wipe that annoyed the seven hells out of me.

I'm assuming one tank was new as they had the cutscene so the experienced paladin went Shield Oath. The new paladin also went Shield Oath and started an aggro war. Things went mostly fine until add phase (shocker). We had one sword dropped by a moon gana and two lesser adds dropping a sword as well because the dps are tunnel visioning. The end result is I'm dead, and 3 dps are dead. The remaining people are nearly dead and have 3 stacks.

The remainder of the run was the tanks cleaving the party and the other healer being knocked off despite having mp and not dying to bloody fuller (they got lucky). I could not maintain mp because lucid was on cooldown for nearly 40 seconds after I had been revived (everyone having 3 vuln stacks didnt help). Then the summoner (who decided to use titan and ONLY titan) wasted the LB when I needed to be the one to use it (other healer could not be revived). Said summoner also decided to summon titan back before the second run began.

tl;dr DPS being DPS and not doing trial mechanics, tanks fighting for aggro and cleaving the party, and a wasted LB (by the titan summoner).

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Originally Posted by Maeka

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Just to say, the faerie also plays into your toolkit in that situation, if she is on obey and hasn’t blown WD twenty seconds earlier.

I would cast succor and get the faerie to cast whispering dawn then fey illumination in tandem with another succor if necessary. SCH burst healing at level 50 isn’t the best - succor is mp expensive and lustrate (level 50 aether heal) can only be used three times on single targets before that runs out. So it can be hard for an undergeared scholar to quickly recover an entire party.

But then, that’s why there are two healers, to cover the other’s weaknesses. The AST should have been all over that. Though if it IS their first raid, they might have been overwhelmed. I dunno xD

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

So let me preface this by saying I love healing, have been a WHM main since my XI days, but I struggled something fierce when it came to leveling AST to 70. While it wasn't often by any means, I had some moments where I completely blanked mid-fight. I'm not sure if it was the juggling of cards, or perhaps the lack of almost-infinite MP like WHM, or just the unfamiliarity of the class, but yeah, I went full-on deer in headlights mode. lol. It was awful, and I caused some questionable wipes on the newer dungeons that I could breeze through on my WHM.

Now I'm the type of person that will always apologize if I do something stupid, so perhaps that helps to defuse things within the party, but I do know personally sometimes people can just blank when in a new situation. I was being the bad healer in those instances as my reflexes just didn't kick in, much like the healers in the story above, but I would have been equally annoyed had I received some snarky replies over a mistake that was remedied on the next attempt.

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And thats why i specifically mentioned pull 2 being the problem. You blank and we clear next pull no issue? I wont even remember the fight a day later to post on here unless something epically bad/funny happened. You blank, and apologize(which is also what i try to do if in a similar situation)? Ive typed "No worries, we'll get it this time" or "Thats ok, does anyone have any questions before we try this again?" so many times i should probly make a macro for it. Making the same mistake a second time without saying anything(then clearing easily after being called out) is where i sided with Maeka. And im not even defending the snarky comment(i try to keep those to myself), just saying i understand where its coming from and kinda agree. Ill also say on record that i dont know Maeka, and even though we're from the same server ive never noticed them in game before. So im not arguing for a friend, just someone whos point of view i understand.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

And I understand that, but again, half-dead raid and the remedy to such is universal to all duties.

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The Chrysalis was actually the fight that made me quit the game for about six months. In retrospect it wasn't really the fight it's self but rather the players I got for it but still.

I don't know for sure if it's the first full party trial you participate in, it's definitely one of the first though. I was on WHM and was paired with an AST. This was a really long time ago so my boyfriend wasn't even tanking yet he was still a DRG.

The tanks we got along with the AST were just so awful to me and I didn't understand why. They kept yelling at me for us wiping because I didn't keep Medica II rolling all the time. Now I understand how completely stupid this is but back then I didn't know any better so I tried to listen to them (mostly so they would stop being mean to me) and wound up OOM by the time we got to the meteor phase.

Anyways, the fight ended up disbanding and it completely crushed my confidence. Even when I did come back six months later I was terrified to do any group content. I literally started at the Hall of the Novice (which had been introduced in my absence I think) and worked my way up through guildhests and dungeons.

My point is twofold - have sympathy for new people, even when they're causing wipes, especially around the introduction of a new kind of content. Prior to level 50 the only full party duty you have is that one last guildhest I believe. Participating in these things when all you've done prior is dungeoning is new and scary.

The other part is the lesson I learned - do your research. I enjoy patch day blind runs as much as the next person but expecting people to cater to your desire for a blind run (be it because you actually want a blind run or because you just didn't attempt to educate yourself) months or years after content is old is selfish. Watch or read a guide, most are only a few minutes of your time and could be the difference between a wipe and a clear. Your time is not inherently more valuable than anyone else's in that group and if there are seven of them who just want to get through this instance it is your responsibility to facilitate that to the best of your ability.

All that aside I have two stories brought to you by my alt character on Primal. She is mainly a PLD but I'm also leveling ACN to get to SCH/SMN (mostly SCH tbh) so she's in all sorts of shenanigans.

First off - got to use the Topaz Carbuncle to tank a reasonable portion of Copperbell. It wasn't easy. Our tank very well could have been a bot, I don't know, but he only used Fast Blade -> Savage Blade on one target until it died and didn't respond to anyone asking him to do otherwise. No rotating targets, no Flash. The healer also seemed overwhelmed when the damage was pinging everywhere (even though it was light) so I found myself healing my own Carbuncle. Basicallly, via pet, I tanked/healed/dpsed my way through the dungeon. Shoutout to my codps a lovely NIN who clearly shared my pain. She had Diversion up I swear on CD to make it easier on my bby Carbytank and he was thankful for it.

Then my tank story.

Er, well, my "I'm actually playing a tank" story.

I'm happy to have gotten to Brayflox. I actually have tank stance for the first dungeon ever. I have a returner DRG who is okayish I suppose, a sprout MCH who was my bestie in this run and a healer who was... bad. There are no other words. She was bad.

It's hard for me to know if anyone else is new at the start of these dungeons because the bonus message shows up no matter what since technically I am new. No one says anything (other than the mch responding to my greeting) so I move on.

I very nearly die on the first pull of two enemies because I don't get any healing. I double check to make sure I'm in tank stance (I am, I'm 32 so it didn't remove my stance when I got in because I didn't sync) and I used Rampart. My gear is all equipped.

Second pull, same thing. In the middle of the pull the healer summons their fairy. Oh yay, something to heal me! I have to drag the enemies closer to the healer to get healed though, they're too far away to actually hit me with auto embraces I guess.

This theme persists throughout the dungeon. On the final boss things get bad though - I die to a hit that I'm hesitant to call an actual 'tankbuster' but it hit for almost 400 damage. I also had two poison stacks.

I get a raise immediately - oh, so you know how to react quickly when I'm actually dead, huh?

Rinse and repeat - poison stacks all around, no esuna going out. The healer may as well have summoned Eos and gone afk. I die again. Before I can even say anything the MCH says "really?" in party chat. I'm inclined to agree, friendo.

I get back up again, MCH plays me Tactician (bless his heart, he played me Refresh the time before) and we manage to scrambled through.

How, when Eos is doing the bulk of your healing anyway, can one person be so bad? I know it wasn't on me - I played it safe and was in Shield Oath the entire time ,using Rampart/Awareness on CD. I suppose I could have swapped Provoke for Conva but then I would have had no way to take the boss back when I died.

Ugh. Just ugh. Healing, people! Please do it! I don't play this game to do all the work while you sit on your thumbs in a corner.

Edit: wow that's a novel. Sorry ppl ;-;

Chrysalis is not the first Full Party you experience, nor anywhere near.

There's Cape Westwind.
There's the two MSQ Dungeons.
Moggle Mog.
Hard Primals (Ifrit/Titan/Garuda).
Ramuh.

And I think Leviathan even comes before Chrysalis but I'm not sure on that.

I'll look at my Trials list, because they're listed in the order you typically unlock them when I get on to do my dailies later.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

The Chrysalis was actually the fight that made me quit the game for about six months. In retrospect it wasn't really the fight it's self but rather the players I got for it but still.

I don't know for sure if it's the first full party trial you participate in, it's definitely one of the first though.

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Definitely sorry to hear... all those stories. For Chrysalis in particular, if the other healer was on AST then my instinct is that they were(at least part of) the real problem. Sure, you might have made some new-player style mistakes, but being on AST means that they had been through all this, gotten to Ishgard at a minimum, and then leveled the new healer class up from 30. They would have to know the fight to get that far, and its very likely that they outgeared it by a good amount. In short, they should have been able to cover for a few minor screw-ups from the new person. Toss in the bad attitude and abusiveness toward the new player, and youre basically describing a garbage person. Also small correction, Chrysalis is actually toward the end of the 2.x series, so it ends up being the 9th full party trial you have to clear(and 11th instance if we count castrum and prae). Story-wise, it comes between Shiva(last of the elemental series) and Steps of Faith(end of the patch series) - so youve fought Cape Westwind, Mog, and all 6 elements prior to going in there(with another 14 optional trials available, plus 13 coils and 3 CT raids - not that most new people get into all that right away).

I didn't even think of the fact that AST means they got to Ishgard at least once, lol. Good catch on that. They very likely had Ironworks gear at that, which is easy to get nowadays.

EDIT: Yay, I got another story that happened just now.

Q'd up as my Lv55 DRK for Trials.

Got Titan (Hard). Yaaay, awesome (/sarcasm). Just did this yesterday.

We pull, and as per usual, I let the other guy tank first because I'm not the best at tanking this guy, never did like it because I always get nervous about being so close to the edge of the cliff.

I open with two Souleater combos to make sure I don't pull threat and I look up at threat meter and I notice that the WHM Healer is pulling almost as much threat as I am! Then I look at the WAR's Stance, and he's got Defiance up. I look at my own and...... whoops. I forgot Grit. My bad. Turn Grit on, and the WHM pulls threat. I'm at 90% threat myself WITHOUT GRIT after doing two Syphon Strike->Souleater Combos. I'm like "whaaaaat!?"

He had about as much HP as me and he's losing threat to the healer WITH Tank stance on.

Well, it's obvious this guy can't tank a wet paper bag, so I Provoked Titan and switched to Power Slash, to MT it myself.

The whole fight, the WAR never got past 50% threat.

And he kept Tank stance up the whole fight.

Venting here about make up a "Learning party" in PF, half hour to fill, and some people leaving after the first wipe. Rinse and repeat.

I wonder what those guys are thinking when they enter a learning party.

@MoroMusaki FYI, Provoke only causes the user to become top threat, and only by one point. This means that if you're already top threat, it does absolutely nothing, so save it for if/when you lose threat or, in 8-mans (only), to solidify your co-tank's threat by following up with Shirk. :)

--Erim Nelhah

Leviathan and Shiva also come before Chrysalis.

Chrysalis is the second to last trial in ARR, followed only by the steps of faith/The big fatty dragon on the bridge

EDIT: Oops, someone else already made the correction.


Anyway, had a rather unfortunate incident with a healer "Rescue"ing me into every bad thing imaginable in Ridorana.
Yeah sure, pull me into the AOE's every time it comes off CD, then call me a bad player for standing in the bad, real nice of you.

Need to vent a little bit about a lighthouse run last night. So I enter as warrior with a few friends, and we sit at the first boss for a solid 60 seconds, no one wanting to pull. So even though I’d never MTed it before (although I had OTed several times), I activated Defiance, put on my game face, and threw up a countdown. What resulted was a VERY smooth run, we got all the way to the last boss with very little difficulty (even one shotted math man, hooray!) And then we wiped on the last boss. A couple ppl told me to tank him in the middle during the first attempt, which I obliged, I was a little slow as he he was locked in attack animations, but I didn’t really think much of it. We ended up wiping on the dps check (not due to any positioning/tanking issues). Cue the second attempt, and a warrior tank from one of the other grps decided I must have been the problem. She switches to Defiance, and keeps voking and generally fighting me tooth and nail for hate. After whipping him around several times trying to take hate from me, I just ended up letting her have it, I shirked and switched to Deliverance. I did say something to the effect of, “if you wanted to MT you could have just said so before the pull” and left it at that. We did end up killing him on the second attempt, due mostly to dps being much quicker during the burn phase. Maybe its just my ego taking a hit, I’ve certainly been in worse runs, but I felt kind of deflated after the whole thing, despite how well the run as a whole went.

When you’re running current 24 man content, its ok to communicate with your fellow tanks! If I’m doing something wrong, either educate, or just ask if you want to MT instead.

Anyway, I did voke back when the boss was at about 5% just to be a pain :P

I recently came back to the game and leveled my Bard from 60-70. When I got to Royal Managerie, I ended up with a group who did pretty well. We wiped once after a healer got those 4 arrows pointing at them, telling us to stack up. Everyone near the healer just ran away, and I tried stacking as the healer then tried to run off the other way. After we both die to this, the rest of the group died to another mechanic right after that. So I say in chat, "watch for the attack where we need to stack, everyone ran away lol". Man, was that a mistake. Three from that group just started going off about being new, not knowing what to look for, etc... with an attitude while attacking me over that line. The only other thing that I typed was "it's np, I was just letting you know to watch for it". And that was followed by a lot more complaining about it being their first time. It was also my first time in that dungeon though, but I didn't want to argue, so I just didn't type anything else. They also were going on about not knowing the mechanic, even though it's the same thing from the previous 10 dungeons before it. I didn't explain this part for obvious reasons

So we go for run two, and both healers decided to just not heal me. So I die after a few of the bosses aoe's, and just go grab something to drink. The group finished that run though, so that part didn't really bother me.

The lesson was just to never type in chat during group content. Calling out a mechanic that everyone missed seems to be unacceptable here.

People are remarkable unintelligent like that.

They fail to recognize a mechanic that has been used dozens of times before then, showing non-existent pattern recognition and learning ability, and then they go off on anyone who comments on it, as if trying to save their fragile egos by putting someone else down, and the first person who demonstrates any kind of knowledge about the subject in question has a target painted on their back.

Kind of how like bullies in school often hone in on kids with better grades than themselves.
They are doing poorly, so they have to make themselves feel better by beating others within an inch of their lives

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

@MoroMusaki FYI, Provoke only causes the user to become top threat, and only by one point. This means that if you're already top threat, it does absolutely nothing, so save it for if/when you lose threat or, in 8-mans (only), to solidify your co-tank's threat by following up with Shirk. :)

--Erim Nelhah

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I understand how Provoke works - and if you die by far the fastest way to regain an enmity lead is Provoke + an enmity generator (so in my case Shield Lob on PLD) which is what I did.

I'm confused why you think I don't know what Provoke does? I specifically state that I could have swapped Provoke out for Conva as my third Cross-Role but then I would have had a much harder time getting the boss back when I died. Maybe you misunderstood something?

Either way - yes, that is what Provoke does xD

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I understand how Provoke works - and if you die by far the fastest way to regain an enmity lead is Provoke + an enmity generator (so in my case Shield Lob on PLD) which is what I did.

I'm confused why you think I don't know what Provoke does? I specifically state that I could have swapped Provoke out for Conva as my third Cross-Role but then I would have had a much harder time getting the boss back when I died. Maybe you misunderstood something?

Either way - yes, that is what Provoke does xD

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Sorry Moro, I misread your post (read used instead of swapped somehow). I'd delete my other one but that's not an option on mobile and my PC is unavailable atm.

--Erim Nelhah

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I open with two Souleater combos to make sure I don't pull threat and I look up at threat meter and I notice that the WHM Healer is pulling almost as much threat as I am! Then I look at the WAR's Stance, and he's got Defiance up. I look at my own and...... whoops. I forgot Grit.

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In this case, your "forgetting" was actually a good (or, at least, the normally-proper) thing as you're not supposed to have Grit on as OT (aside from adds, of course, or a couple other edge cases). That WAR, though ... I don't think I have words for that.

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Originally Posted by jcfoster11

In this case, your "forgetting" was actually a good (or, at least, the normally-proper) thing as you're not supposed to have Grit on as OT (aside from adds, of course, or a couple other edge cases). That WAR, though ... I don't think I have words for that.

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Well, if I'm OT, what I like to do, is have Grit on, and open with 2-3 Souleater combos and then switch to Power Slash.

If the other tank is good, I'll maintain about 75-80% threat and I'm not going to pull threat. If I see I'm getting up to 90% I'll go back to Souleaters until the other tank catches up.

That way, if the other tank dies, I'm next on the threat list and it's easy to swap and I don't have to fumble to reach for Grit if the other tank drops dead.

But yeah the other tank was just terrible in that run.

so lvling blm the lately and the other day in doma a got a warrior tank who bad because of pure stupidity first thing the guy does as a masive wall to wall pull which doesn't end well and we wipe guy then kept doing it and it it would always go baldy and we wipe so we told him to cut it out still kept doing it and wiping us on trash this ended up with us getting to this on pull where starting yell blm lb! when the gauge wasn't full so you know I can't actully lb then the guy leaves we get new tank and the rest of the run goes fine
at least I have bad tank story now seriously all my stories about bad players are about healers I actully warn people about pfing healers with me in the party my luck is that bad

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Originally Posted by Pyro2hell3

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Hello fellow Lamian!

If you need roulettes and such and you want a decent healer, you can look me up sometime if I'm on. I wouldn't say I'm the best healer around, but I get frequent comms so I don't suck that bad lol. I can also tank too ('cept my tank is currently a bit under-geared, need to work on that sometime).

Just don't ask me to do raids or Savage, I don't do that kinda thing lol. Well I've been tempted to try Rabanastre or Lighthouse eventually maybe. Not sure on that yet. Maybe someday I'll try it.

I did alliance roulette on MCH but this is going to be a really short story.

Syrcus Tower.

We wiped to Scylla :l (don't know if it was poor healing or the 50 lightning orbs exploding around ancient flare).

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

I did alliance roulette on MCH but this is going to be a really short story.

Syrcus Tower.

We wiped to Scylla :l (don't know if it was poor healing or the 50 lightning orbs exploding around ancient flare).

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Your story reminded me of one run I did of Syrcus Tower where there was only one iceberg left for Amon's Curtain Call and it was right next to him, so half the raid was like "rip" expecting that we would all die to Curtain Call. But fortunately it was far enough away and we didn't die.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Well, if I'm OT, what I like to do, is have Grit on, and open with 2-3 Souleater combos and then switch to Power Slash.

If the other tank is good, I'll maintain about 75-80% threat and I'm not going to pull threat. If I see I'm getting up to 90% I'll go back to Souleaters until the other tank catches up.

That way, if the other tank dies, I'm next on the threat list and it's easy to swap and I don't have to fumble to reach for Grit if the other tank drops dead.

But yeah the other tank was just terrible in that run.

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But as OT you really really don't need Grit. At all.

Grit lowers your damage output, and locks you out of Blood Weapon. You don't really gain anything either for having it on, because if you suddenly needed to have threat, you have Provoke for that.

Ridorana a few weeks back, there was this healer from another team that just would not stop dying to every single mechanic you could possibly take damage from. His/her death count at the end of that run was something like... 30, iirc, and we only wiped once, so it was a lot of deaths lmao. At some point me (RDM) and a bf (SCH) were kind of making a game of rezzing that WHM just to see how many more times it would die before the end of the run. It was amazing.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

Ridorana a few weeks back, there was this healer from another team that just would not stop dying to every single mechanic you could possibly take damage from. His/her death count at the end of that run was something like... 30, iirc, and we only wiped once, so it was a lot of deaths lmao. At some point me (RDM) and a bf (SCH) were kind of making a game of rezzing that WHM just to see how many more times it would die before the end of the run. It was amazing.

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Like a reverse "Pop the Weasel." In my experience, we healers usually end up doing this for Dragoons and Black Mages. For other healers? That's when you know something's wrong. xD

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I open with two Souleater combos to make sure I don't pull threat and I look up at threat meter and I notice that the WHM Healer is pulling almost as much threat as I am! Then I look at the WAR's Stance, and he's got Defiance up. I look at my own and...... whoops. I forgot Grit. My bad. Turn Grit on, and the WHM pulls threat. I'm at 90% threat myself WITHOUT GRIT after doing two Syphon Strike->Souleater Combos. I'm like "whaaaaat!?"

He had about as much HP as me and he's losing threat to the healer WITH Tank stance on.

Well, it's obvious this guy can't tank a wet paper bag, so I Provoked Titan and switched to Power Slash, to MT it myself.

The whole fight, the WAR never got past 50% threat.

And he kept Tank stance up the whole fight.

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If the WHM was that high on aggro, they were either massively overhealing, or the WAR was just autoattacking. Though, could be gear discrepancies. Either way, you shouldn’t be in your tank stance at the OT. And someone was doing something wrong in that instance—be it the WAR or the WHM. Or both.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Well, if I'm OT, what I like to do, is have Grit on, and open with 2-3 Souleater combos and then switch to Power Slash.

If the other tank is good, I'll maintain about 75-80% threat and I'm not going to pull threat. If I see I'm getting up to 90% I'll go back to Souleaters until the other tank catches up.

That way, if the other tank dies, I'm next on the threat list and it's easy to swap and I don't have to fumble to reach for Grit if the other tank drops dead.

But yeah the other tank was just terrible in that run.

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If you just want to maintain second in enmity, Provoke+Shirk on cooldown (8-man content only since Shirk doesn’t work in 24-mans); that gives you second enmity automatically, and transfers 25% of your enmity to the MT, making their job even easier. You shouldn’t be in your tank stance ever as the off-tank. Because if the MT drops their tank stance for DPS stance, then you’re just ripping off of them for no reason. You should also just stick to DA+Souleater combos, because Power Slash is a DPS loss.

If the MT dies, then to gain aggro, just Provoke (if it’s up), or do a quick DA+Power Slash combo. You can even do Grit > DA+Dark Passenger for some super snap-enmity, since Dark Passenger’s enmity multiplier is ridiculous now.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Well, if I'm OT, what I like to do, is have Grit on, and open with 2-3 Souleater combos and then switch to Power Slash.

If the other tank is good, I'll maintain about 75-80% threat and I'm not going to pull threat. If I see I'm getting up to 90% I'll go back to Souleaters until the other tank catches up.

That way, if the other tank dies, I'm next on the threat list and it's easy to swap and I don't have to fumble to reach for Grit if the other tank drops dead.

But yeah the other tank was just terrible in that run.

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This is why you have Provoke. A single Dark Arts + Power Slash even without Grit on will be enough to hold the boss since Provoke instantly gives you the other tank's entire aggo build plus one. All you're doing is gimping your own damage for no reason. You also never touch Power Slash as the OT unless required.

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Originally Posted by Pyro2hell3

so lvling blm the lately and the other day in doma a got a warrior tank who bad because of pure stupidity first thing the guy does as a masive wall to wall pull which doesn't end well and we wipe guy then kept doing it and it it would always go baldy and we wipe so we told him to cut it out still kept doing it and wiping us on trash this ended up with us getting to this on pull where starting yell blm lb! when the gauge wasn't full so you know I can't actully lb then the guy leaves we get new tank and the rest of the run goes fine
at least I have bad tank story now seriously all my stories about bad players are about healers I actully warn people about pfing healers with me in the party my luck is that bad

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If you ever need help leveling me and my friends are always willing to help! I know some excellent healers and tanks. :D

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Well, if I'm OT, what I like to do, is have Grit on, and open with 2-3 Souleater combos and then switch to Power Slash.

If the other tank is good, I'll maintain about 75-80% threat and I'm not going to pull threat. If I see I'm getting up to 90% I'll go back to Souleaters until the other tank catches up.

That way, if the other tank dies, I'm next on the threat list and it's easy to swap and I don't have to fumble to reach for Grit if the other tank drops dead.

But yeah the other tank was just terrible in that run.

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I don't mean to jump on your post as I see a few people have already explained some of the issues with this and also some other ways to keep your enmity high as OT without tank stance on but I thought I could give another angle on why this doesn't really work out.

If you're in tank stance and your MT is a WAR they will likely be in Deliverance which means after their opener or potentially even during it you're going to yank the boss off of them. The general WAR opener is starting in Defiance and popping Unchained into Tomohawk (Equilibrium) then beginning your Storm's Eye combo to get the buff up ASAP before you get to Inner Release and changing to Deliverance during the Eye combo. The enmity lead basically comes from Tomohawk and the self-heal from Equilibrium and that's usually enough to keep you ahead until you start Fell Cleaves at which point the damage you're putting out will help maintain and often broaden your lead on threat. This might be adjusted if you know you have a much better geared dps or a particularly bursty BRD but it's the general idea.

The problem is if you're in tank stance and doing your enmity combo you're gimping that WAR's opener because he has to swap into a BB combo (which no WAR wants to do) which delays his Inner Release.

To me doing this is no different than standing in an avoidable AoE - you're making more work for someone else because you aren't playing in a way that is friendly to the group. This is to say nothing to the melee who may miss positionals or the other party members that may be cleaved if you do overtake the MT on threat and the boss spins.

Anyways, I hope this helps explain a bit more of this and also perhaps shines a light on why you may have been pulling off of some MTs in the past.

Oh, and yes, weaving in Provoke+Shirk together can be really huge for keeping both you and the MT at the top of the threat list with neither of you even having to bother with tank stance.

The other obvious alternative if you really want to be in tank stance is to just MT. If you're with a PLD you should be pulling anyways and I doubt many WARs would begrudge you holding the boss - just more time for more beast gague generation for more Fell Cleaves. You can MT for me any time! :D

Also just to further add to the tank subject, in random PUGs if I load in and you're in grit, and you stay in grit, I'm going to assume you're determined to be MT and rather than get into it and waste everyone's time I'm just gonna let you have it.

I've been attempting to learn how to tank lately. Sorry to everyone I've had in my groups, I'm trying I swear. I've just never been great at tanking in any game. But tanks are hard to find so I thought I'd try ._.

Hmm.

Well, I don't really trust other tanks in 8man Trial Roulettes, lol.

But yeah I suppose, the main problem I find in Roulettes is that nobody wants to assert whether they are MT or OT and I find that when I used to ask (especially for Moggle Mog, because that's kind of important) that even when I do ask, they don't do what they said they would do.

In fact, the last Moggle Mog I did, I straight out told the PLD that I would "grab the tanks" (meaning the pld and war moogles). What does the PLD do? First thing when the King pops, he lays down CoS and Flash. He takes the King and the two tanks simultaneously and it's all I could do to provoke the WAR off of him. And I'm like "uh, dude, I thought I supposed to get those two?"

And of course, he almost dies in the process, lol.

But yet I find that if I decide I'm MT, the other tank will fight me over it and the raid will end up eating cleaves because of course, the tank don't want to face the mob away from the raid, no, they're standing directly opposite of me.

If I decide I'm OT, then the other tank will decide that it's a great time to throw DPS stance on, and suddenly you got healers/DPS pulling threat until one of us decides it's time for tank stance.

So......

I usually resort to always doing tank stance and manually managing threat levels by switching between the combos to dance the threat line, but not pull threat at the same time. If the other tank goes DPS stance and isn't even trying to maintain threat then I'll just assume MT and MT it myself.

The WAR in my previous story? He was definitely the problem. With tank stance on, he couldn't keep threat for more than the 8-ish seconds it took me to do two combos. So he was a rare case of Tank Stance + Unable to hold any kind of threat whatsoever. lol.

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Originally Posted by Cerbolt

I've been attempting to learn how to tank lately. Sorry to everyone I've had in my groups, I'm trying I swear. I've just never been great at tanking in any game. But tanks are hard to find so I thought I'd try ._.

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There are many great tanking guides in various places, youtube, forums, wherever. If you want to tank, best thing to do is start a gladiator or marauder from Lv1, practice grabbing and holding mobs, know how to dodge AoE... and then Q up for Sastasha after you get your Brand-New Gear and go from there.

It isn't hard once you get the hang of it. I'd recommend GLA/PLD because it's overall easiest to tank with, and it makes for a great intro to tanking.

EDIT: I do understand what you (mainly Hyomin and that other girl) are saying about stances and such, but again, it seems like I can rarely trust the other tank because I keep getting derpy people in my Roulettes. I take this "if I want it done right, I gotta do it myself" mentality when it comes to Roulettes. I'm ready to take charge if I need to, but yet I wait and see if somebody else will do it because I don't want them fighting me over it. I try to be the flexible person who will adapt to everybody else, because I can't trust/expect anybody else to be the one to adapt.

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Originally Posted by Cerbolt

I've been attempting to learn how to tank lately. Sorry to everyone I've had in my groups, I'm trying I swear. I've just never been great at tanking in any game. But tanks are hard to find so I thought I'd try ._.

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You may find the below as a useful primer for your tanking experience :)

https://i.imgur.com/2ngxaQu.png

~~URL Link to image if you don't want to open the spoiler / need bigger image~~

Don't give up! If you're willing to learn and express that you're still learning the ropes to party, I'm sure many will understand.

Thanks guys, and thanks for guide :)

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Originally Posted by Maeka

But yeah I suppose, the main problem I find in Roulettes is that nobody wants to assert whether they are MT or OT

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This tends to happen to me as well. Generally, though, if I see someone load in already in their tank stance, I just default to DPS stance. But then, there’s the inevitable tank stand-off (particularly common in 24-mans), and I tend to be the one who nuts up, throws on tank stance, and pulls. However...

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But yet I find that if I decide I'm MT, the other tank will fight me over it and the raid will end up eating cleaves because of course, the tank don't want to face the mob away from the raid, no, they're standing directly opposite of me.

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...this also tends to happen. At that point, it really depends on my mood, but I will either let them have it and go full-on DPS OT, or I will actually fight them for aggro out of a “No, this is my boss; you had the chance to man-up and didn’t want to, so mine” mentality. But, it really depends on my mood.

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If I decide I'm OT, then the other tank will decide that it's a great time to throw DPS stance on, and suddenly you got healers/DPS pulling threat until one of us decides it's time for tank stance.

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With regards to this, if the other tank is still managing his own enmity, he shouldn’t have issues holding hate while in his DPS stance, barring massive gear discrepancies but he can still manage—just need to do some more aggro combos/occasionally switch back into tank stance for an enmity lead, then switch back to DPS stance. Even if you aren’t actively Provoke+Shirking, or if this is a 24-man situation where you cannot. If the healers or DPS are ripping hate, that’s probably more likely caused by blatant and massive overhealing, or the DPS are refusing to use Diversion (I’ve noticed that MNK/SAM are particularly bad about this). Though, that’s not always the case; I’ve ripped off of Defiance WARs in Sword Oath because they’re...well idk what they’re doing (in 50 and 60 content—haven’t done any 70 content on tanks yet because I’m not a good tank lol).

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I usually resort to always doing tank stance and manually managing threat levels by switching between the combos to dance the threat line, but not pull threat at the same time. If the other tank goes DPS stance and isn't even trying to maintain threat then I'll just assume MT and MT it myself.

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I understand this mindset, but generally there’s no need to really worry unless the MT is losing aggro a lot, in my opinion. At that point, just MT the thing. You could probably maintain threat without tank stance on.

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EDIT: I do understand what you (mainly Hyomin and that other girl) are saying about stances and such, but again, it seems like I can rarely trust the other tank because I keep getting derpy people in my Roulettes. I take this "if I want it done right, I gotta do it myself" mentality when it comes to Roulettes. I'm ready to take charge if I need to, but yet I wait and see if somebody else will do it because I don't want them fighting me over it. I try to be the flexible person who will adapt to everybody else, because I can't trust/expect anybody else to be the one to adapt.

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And I understand this as well. I just mentioned not sitting in tank stance because sometimes there is unneeded aggro bouncing, and that can get on my nerves as an MT (on the rare occasion I tank) or as a melee DPS trying to hit positions because the boss is now spinning to win (on the even rarer occasion I’m on a melee...I’ve noticed I have particularly bad luck on NIN; RIP Trick Attack). ;-;

Most of the aggro fighting I witness tends to be in 24-mans. You either have the tank stand off, or all three tanks want to be MT. 8-mans, at least in my experience, tend to be a bit easier.

I honestly share this same mindset with regards to co-healers. I tend to not trust them until I see them in action...especially in 24-mans because they’re always fun and questionable. The Ridorana I did before maintenance this past Tuesday, my co-healer never raised a single person in the party. I did the majority of the raising (for both my alliance and another because one of them was having some problems), the healing, and the DPS. >.> Maybe they were new because they did just stand around a lot (and die to stuff), but I’m honestly not sure. They’d do fine, and then suddenly they were standing in and getting hit by everything. Maybe their brain was just AFK. /shrug

I had a paladin in roulette who never bothered to use an Oath at all and kept spamming Provoke and his aggro combo anyway. And nothing else.

So I Shirked him, let him die, and took the boss back. Clean sailing from there.

Somehow nobody bothered to pick him up the entire time. Wonder why......

Why do people hate Lakshimi so much? It wasn't even the EX, but the normal Story Mode everyone has to do in order to beat the first patch of the expansion. One healer immediately DC's, though from what I hope it was internet trouble and not actually anything malicious. We proceed to wipe because a few people are new after deciding to proceed with the trial and hope she rejoins in the middle. No dice, but it's no biggy. We kick that healer and get a new one. This time someone who has never done the trial before. Okay, perfect. Lakshimi is incredibly easy so people can do callouts as we go. Nope. Newbie rage quit after jumping off the platform with the AOE puddle and just never came back. The run was infinitely smoother this time however, but I just don't get why people DC out at the first sign of trouble. You're new, you're going to make mistakes. No one is going to hold you to them so long as you try to learn and not repeat them. It's okay to make mistakes, but please don't just DC in the middle of the fight and then get a free clear in the process. It helps no one, yourself especially because you're now SOL when the first comes up again and you still have no idea what you're doing.
Kudos to the other healer though, they stepped up and we had no further issues. I hope they got every single commendation.

Other than that... Party wipe on Scylla because healers didn't want to heal, but it was otherwise nothing worthy of note.